MDM and melted front right brake pad :(

zcchen · 03-11-2014, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mid-corner fun

I'm really baffled as to why you would attempt to use stock pads on any track car based on your own comments and admission of running in TT...Perhaps I'm missing something here.

M3 is my daily driver, not my track car. I do however enjoy driving it on track once in a while.

I just wanted to see how fast I can drive the M3 around the track in stock or almost stock condition; part of my plan to convince people around me how you don't have to modify a car heavily to have fun and go fast on track.

Bottom line, if I had run stock tires and stock brake fluid, I wouldn't have melted my pads. Even though I would only get about 3 hot laps per session before significant brake fade.

MasterP · 03-11-2014, 02:25 PM

MDM isn't meant to make a good driver drive faster. MDM will slow a good driver down since it's reducing throttle and grabbing brakes.

If you're really doing it right you can drive very agressively and not have the MDM ever kick in. I leave it on during the Morning sessions where it's harder to get heat into the tires and it's less predictable when the grip is coming and going as the track heats up and rubber is starting to get laid down.

You can track on stock brakes. I wouldn't make a habit of it, and I wouldn't start my day on worn ones. You said you had tracked three times already. That's pretty risky. Stock brakes weren't made for the abuse. They may "work" at the expense of longevity. As the pads get thinner more heat is transferred to the calipers and to the fluid. Even RBF 600 isn't going to keep from boiling in those conditions.

zcchen · 03-11-2014, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Probably wrong word was used. Think anyone who runs time trials would know not to push stock pads very hard.

After inspection, pads and rotors on all other three corners were in very good conditions! That's what baffled me. If they were in bad shapes, then I admit I shouldn't track on stock brakes. However that's not the case! Maybe it's a sign that I didn't push my brakes over their limits under normal braking. Something particular happened at my front right corner.

Every session, I would go out, 1 warm up lap, 3 or 4 hot laps and then cool down on track if no traffic behind me or drive off track and cool down on lerdo highway. Driving like this, I never experienced problem before when I tracked my M3.

zcchen · 03-11-2014, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrakBch

MDM isn't meant to make a good driver drive faster. MDM will slow a good driver down since it's reducing throttle and grabbing brakes.

If you're really doing it right you can drive very agressively and not have the MDM ever kick in. I leave it on during the Morning sessions where it's harder to get heat into the tires and it's less predictable when the grip is coming and going as the track heats up and rubber is starting to get laid down.

You can track on stock brakes. I wouldn't make a habit of it, and I wouldn't start my day on worn ones. You said you had tracked three times already. That's pretty risky. Stock brakes weren't made for the abuse. They may "work" at the expense of longevity. As the pads get thinner more heat is transferred to the calipers and to the fluid. Even RBF 600 isn't going to keep from boiling in those conditions.

If you don't mind sharing, what is your lap time delta/difference between MDM on and off?

1MOREMOD · 03-11-2014, 02:33 PM

Is it a ccw track with almost all corners being lefts?

zcchen · 03-11-2014, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Is it a ccw track with almost all corners being lefts?

It isn't! It is CW! It is buttonwillow 13cw configuration. There are probably fewer than 5 left turns that are significant! That's why I am confused!

1MOREMOD · 03-11-2014, 02:40 PM

Its possible to have a pad drag, my rears on my e46 hung up when I first bought it due to piston issue.

MasterP · 03-11-2014, 02:44 PM

That's the thing. If you're driving "properly" MDM should not effect your lap times.

If you need MDM, that means you would be driving in a manner that would mean you are skidding/sliding/pitching. All of that is slow. If you have it off and you're still driving in the same manner you'll be even slower since all that is wasted energy and the MDM isn't trying to help you use it to go forward or stay on the track.

MDM isn't a go faster tool. It's a way to enjoy the car at your persoal limits without having to worry too much about pointing in the wrong direction. It's still possible as MDM doesn't defy physics.

As I said earlier, I use it as a safety net when the track is cold. Once the track warms up and rubber gets put down I turn the MDM off as I don't really need it.

For a novice driver you may be faster with MDM on all the time if you are over driving your car. It probably does net you faster results.

Also to clarify, I wasn't recommending using stock brakes. Other that you may be able to get away with it under the right conditions like lead Follow on a HPDE.

zcchen · 03-11-2014, 02:57 PM

I have no doubt I could turn a faster time with MDM off. Point taken.
I have also ordered better pads.
I will try again in apr and report back

Vic311 · 03-11-2014, 02:59 PM

Cooked the brakes due to traction control intervention, as a result of poor driving.

Petros · 03-11-2014, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiM3y

I think there is a difference between a weakness and a liability. Don't want to spread misinformation.

I haven't read a thread where the brakes caused a catastrophic failure, even when they were melted down by that Belgian nutter that ended up stabbing someone.

WHAT?

Any details????

1MOREMOD · 03-11-2014, 05:20 PM

I'm not so sure there is anything wrong with overdriving the car really. I do it frequently. You surpass the limit on entry or exit at times to find out where they are and try and be faster. I usually do it later in my day as I'm really settled in and comfortable. I decide now I'm gonna push it a little and work the car and myself harder.

MasterP · 03-11-2014, 05:43 PM

Like over driving or murdering your tires over driving?

1MOREMOD · 03-11-2014, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrakBch

Like over driving or murdering your tires over driving?

Sure experimenting with alternate ways around the track, more slip angle, less brakes, bumping other cars you know usual stuff.

MasterP · 03-11-2014, 07:19 PM

Haha. Then in that case that's what I do that on my last session.

mid-corner fun · 03-11-2014, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Sure experimenting with alternate ways around the track, more slip angle, less brakes, bumping other cars you know usual stuff.

Sigh. We're only allowed to bump on the straights around here on HPDEs, always wanted to test decreasing the slip angle via bumping.

1MOREMOD · 03-11-2014, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mid-corner fun

Sigh. We're only allowed to bump on the straights around here on HPDEs, always wanted to test decreasing the slip angle via bumping.

You can really rip thru corners if you have the grip of 8 tires helping you.

yandy · 03-11-2014, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

You can really rip thru corners if you have the grip of 8 tires helping you.

So this is what I've been doing wrong, I need to practice more the bump and go method.

rhouck · 03-11-2014, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrakBch

That's the thing. If you're driving "properly" MDM should not effect your lap times.

Absolutely not true. MDM can only work by providing a safety net -- which means it has to kick in before you really get yourself into trouble and the spin becomes irrecoverable. The fastest lap is going to include more slip than the computer will let you have, particularly on corner exit, because it has to give itself a margin of error to recover.

Can you still turn fast times with MDM on? Yes. Can you turn the fastest possible times (i.e., truly driving "properly")? No.

1MOREMOD · 03-11-2014, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yandy

So this is what I've been doing wrong, I need to practice more the bump and go method.

Just be prepared to fight in the paddock. Usually saying you helped me run a PR lap doesn't make people feel better about the dents they incur.

1MOREMOD · 03-11-2014, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhouck

Absolutely not true. MDM can only work by providing a safety net -- which means it has to kick in before you really get yourself into trouble and the spin becomes irrecoverable. The fastest lap is going to include more slip than the computer will let you have, particularly on corner exit, because it has to give itself a margin of error to recover.

Can you still turn fast times with MDM on? Yes. Can you turn the fastest possible times (i.e., truly driving "properly")? No.

I concur, mdm gets in the way too early and will hamper a really quick lap.

PrimeBMW · 03-11-2014, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiM3y

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Stock pads are a liability. You are probably a little faster now also, but I too over used mdm specifically in the rain. I was always fast and it wasn't me doing it.

I think there is a difference between a weakness and a liability. Don't want to spread misinformation.

I haven't read a thread where the brakes caused a catastrophic failure, even when they were melted down by that Belgian nutter that ended up stabbing someone.

oh man!! That had me laughing.... still laughing. Anyone remember Junior Straus.

03-11-2014, 02:25 PM	#24
MasterP Colonel 796 Rep 2,443 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (10)	MDM isn't meant to make a good driver drive faster. MDM will slow a good driver down since it's reducing throttle and grabbing brakes. If you're really doing it right you can drive very agressively and not have the MDM ever kick in. I leave it on during the Morning sessions where it's harder to get heat into the tires and it's less predictable when the grip is coming and going as the track heats up and rubber is starting to get laid down. You can track on stock brakes. I wouldn't make a habit of it, and I wouldn't start my day on worn ones. You said you had tracked three times already. That's pretty risky. Stock brakes weren't made for the abuse. They may "work" at the expense of longevity. As the pads get thinner more heat is transferred to the calipers and to the fluid. Even RBF 600 isn't going to keep from boiling in those conditions.
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03-11-2014, 02:33 PM	#27
1MOREMOD - 11912 Rep 23,185 Posts Drives: Race car-> Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: check your mirrors iTrader: (5)	Is it a ccw track with almost all corners being lefts?
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03-11-2014, 02:40 PM	#29
1MOREMOD - 11912 Rep 23,185 Posts Drives: Race car-> Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: check your mirrors iTrader: (5)	Its possible to have a pad drag, my rears on my e46 hung up when I first bought it due to piston issue.
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03-11-2014, 02:44 PM	#30
MasterP Colonel 796 Rep 2,443 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (10)	That's the thing. If you're driving "properly" MDM should not effect your lap times. If you need MDM, that means you would be driving in a manner that would mean you are skidding/sliding/pitching. All of that is slow. If you have it off and you're still driving in the same manner you'll be even slower since all that is wasted energy and the MDM isn't trying to help you use it to go forward or stay on the track. MDM isn't a go faster tool. It's a way to enjoy the car at your persoal limits without having to worry too much about pointing in the wrong direction. It's still possible as MDM doesn't defy physics. As I said earlier, I use it as a safety net when the track is cold. Once the track warms up and rubber gets put down I turn the MDM off as I don't really need it. For a novice driver you may be faster with MDM on all the time if you are over driving your car. It probably does net you faster results. Also to clarify, I wasn't recommending using stock brakes. Other that you may be able to get away with it under the right conditions like lead Follow on a HPDE.
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03-11-2014, 02:57 PM	#31
zcchen Private First Class 14 Rep 113 Posts Drives: Z3M Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: La Jolla iTrader: (2)	I have no doubt I could turn a faster time with MDM off. Point taken. I have also ordered better pads. I will try again in apr and report back
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03-11-2014, 02:59 PM	#32
Vic311 Banned 43 Rep 1,462 Posts Drives: 2011 e92 M3 Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: NY iTrader: (0)	Cooked the brakes due to traction control intervention, as a result of poor driving.
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03-11-2014, 05:20 PM	#34
1MOREMOD - 11912 Rep 23,185 Posts Drives: Race car-> Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: check your mirrors iTrader: (5)	I'm not so sure there is anything wrong with overdriving the car really. I do it frequently. You surpass the limit on entry or exit at times to find out where they are and try and be faster. I usually do it later in my day as I'm really settled in and comfortable. I decide now I'm gonna push it a little and work the car and myself harder.
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03-11-2014, 05:43 PM	#35
MasterP Colonel 796 Rep 2,443 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (10)	Like over driving or murdering your tires over driving?
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03-11-2014, 07:19 PM	#37
MasterP Colonel 796 Rep 2,443 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (10)	Haha. Then in that case that's what I do that on my last session.
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