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      03-06-2010, 10:19 PM   #709
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Drives: 2016 F82 M4 ZCP
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
We are not big fans of methanol. We understand that some customers like it but we prefere all of our products to run on 100% pump fuel. Like our current stage 1 and 2 VT kits our stage 3 VT product will be designed to run on pump.
Every FI BMW kit on the market is designed to run 100% on pump fuel, at least in the lower stages. If there is an option to run race fuel or WM, all the better, personally I don't see that option as a band aid, at all, you simply don't have the octane past a certain psi, it is normally at that point that WM is included, or even 93 octane in the case of your kits. Do you plan on running boost higher than 6.5psi on 91, or is that boost level the ceiling? Either way it is good to see that you guys are willing to do custom tunes.

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Hey Drew,

You make a good point about a 50/50 Water/Meth setup being used to shore up the 91 craptane you guys have to settle for in socal.

But my post was intended to point out, that a very well engineered hardware package can actually help keep IAT's in check.


Since a poorly designed hardware package (blower, interccooling system, intake manifold design, and all the intake piping) will actually create more HEAT that needs to be neutralized later.

The more heat you create, the more likely you will need a Water/Meth injection system to bring down the IAT's. (prior to entering the engine)

Poorly designed FI kits that restrict the air circulation to vital areas will result in higher engine bay temps. (like kits that block off large portions of the engine radiator)

Intercooler cores that are too large will also have a negative effect on the tuning as well (by blocking off other cooling mechanisms), even though conventional wisdom says a bigger intercooler always = better cooling.

That's not necessarily true in every case...

It's all about building a balanced FI system that maximizes the efficiency/power of the available airflow...while also selecting the properly engineered cooling components that will reduce the IAT's, plus an overall design that maintains the proper air flow throughout the engine bay.

While that may actually SOUND very simple on the surface, it's actually harder than you might think to pull this off.

Modern cars (including the M3) have very crowded engine bays. There is not a lot of room in there to accommodate a number of additional parts.

That requires some very innovative engineering solutions, that require a lot of R&D to figure out.

Because if you don't do your homework, the end result will be a FI kit that underperforms. Not to mention a number of performance related issues that are not easily solved.

As you can imagine, that would lead to some very unhappy customers.

You'd be surprised at how efficient the S65B40 engine and cooling system is, compared to the S54B32 in the E46 M3.

Remember, the S54 also uses a MAF while the S65 does not. It's a lot more difficult to tune the S54's ECU with that handicap (if you want to make 500+rwhp), and the fact that it's harder to keep the engine heat in check. (with that cast iron block that retains a lot of engine bay heat)

The S54 can still be made to run safely without Water/Meth injection, but I can see your point about it being an extra layer of protection if you are running high boost setup (9-11psi) without lower the CR of the engine.

I stand by my earlier statement:

Superior engineering beats suspect engineering hands down.
All great points, but I doubt even an incredibly well designed heat exchanger or FMIC could top WM injection in terms of how effective it is at cooling IAT's, it's significant, having said that I would never run a kit on my car that was not initially able to run efficient on 91 octane without WM.

In terms of how well a kit is designed, etc. of course you're right, but I would never just take anyone's word for it, especially if one has never inspected or seen all the parts, internally as well. Even BMW engineers have made mistakes after many years of R&D, the proof is in the pudding, the amount of miles driven with no major issues, etc. is a better way to answer those questions on how a kit will perform in terms of dealing with the heat FI creates on these HC motors.
16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ
Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH

Last edited by DLSJ5; 03-06-2010 at 10:45 PM..