[Meff]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Well what you said was rubbish. Let me quote it again, "This improvement cannot be measured for comparative gains as it is a very subjective thing...". I'm sorry but that is flat out incorrect. Sure you can't precisely measure a feeling. If that is what you are talking about then I would call that so obvious as it is not worth mentioning. This mod provides improved peak and in gear acceleration that is EXACTLY what people here feel, report and like.

Swamp, dude!! - you are relentless !!

The "improvement" I was referring to is relative to the perception of the changes by the driver - you cannot measure that.

Here is the complete quote ; "The mod may not be meant to improve on specific specs - it may be meant to improve the "feel" of the car for a specific driver. This improvement cannot be measured for comparative gains as it is a very subjective thing, yet still a no less important way for an individual car owner to assess value of a mod"

You are forgetting the original post here - The OP is happy with the mod and his improved drivability and that is the acid test of it's success to him and the others chiming in. I am just trying to convey to you that in addition to your approach, there are other intangible ways to evaluate any modification. I know you have done extensive work on this particular mod, so you are well invested in it's pros and cons and you bring an invaluable service to the membership of this forum with your input. I am not attempting to dismiss your analysis or even challenge it, I simply want to make the point that there are other ways to assess these things as individuals.

What would you say to mfeltiii and his example of his cat back exhaust? Does it not qualify as a mod that can be judged because it is something that can't be measured ? He enjoys the sound and that changes his perception of his car and increases his enjoyment - successful mod in my books. What about a rear diffuser or carbon trim? You can't measure these either, but the driver will enjoy his car more as a result.

Are you confusing emotion with the humans ability to feel and basically "measure" acceleration? I've never brought up emotion and although it has a key role in our evaluation of cars and mods it is not the topic here.

Either we are just on a radically different wavelength, you are still missing the point or you're not making you point very clearly. The "feel" that we keep discussing is quantifiable, measureable and there is an almost perfect correlation between them.

I'm not going to debate the meaning of the word "feel" - no. You can feel improved acceleration, braking, handling yes. You can measure them as well, but the f*#king smile they bring to your face can't be. Call it emotion, call it improved feel, hell call it euphoria - don't care. Unless you have a happiness meter I'm unaware of.... it is an intangible that cannot be quantified, but can certainly be used to assess the validity of a modification.

Again... A FD mod provides:

-Improved peak in gear acceleration
-Improved average acceleration comparing gear to gear
-Improved "feel"

All of these things are consistent, both the feel and the measurements (and of course the physics).

The only possible inconsistency here between feel and measurement is:

-The car will get to redline in each gear quicker. This provides a false illusion of a car that has an overall (i.e. multi gear acceleration) higher acceleration. It will be sometimes a bit worse and sometimes a bit better depending on exactly what specific metric you chose

I don't know why you posted this again as none of this is in dispute.

You do reference here that it provides a "false illusion" That is in fact a change in a driver's perception and therefore supports my point. Whether it's real or perceived, it does not matter if the driver likes the change to the car.

Some agreement, whew.

Ditto

This gets back to the emotion thing which in this case should be entirely left out of the discussion. I'm nearly certain no one here in saying "feel" meant emotion. They simply mean their perception of in gear "punch" or "pull" which again is exactly equivalent to peak in gear acceleration. And despite being able to be fooled (mostly by acoustics and NVH) humans can feel and "measure" acceleration pretty well.

The fact that you want emotion taken out of the equation is what I feel is wrong with your argument. I am not suggesting that your analysis be taken out of the equation, in fact I feel it is very necessary, I am simply stating that both are valid ways to assess any modification.

I really don't want to get in to a battle of attrition with you Swamp - by the look of your almost 7000 posts, I will lose I'm sure. Just trying to get my point across and am having fun debating you. I am posting here with all due respect to what you bring to the forum, but feel strongly about my position.

Tag, you're it.