[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

A small sedan like the 2GC goes down well in the USA and China. Do you think consumers care that Audi and M-B came out with something in a similar form factor on an econo-platform before? I don't.

First of all, these are global products that, as has been pointed out already, *are* selling well in the US. As I’ve said, the solution is to build the right products period, and bring those to the US like Audi and Mercedes have.

Secondly, as I also said, Audi and Mercedes have created excitement in their small car ranges with a full high performance line up. They didn’t do this just for the US, they did it for the brand globally, and then brought it to the US.

Third, being late has already hurt BMW in thousands of units of lost sales opportunity. And now they have to try to penetrate against the established players who already have more exciting versions of their small sedans than BMW will even release in their competing product’s lifecycle. It’s is elementary that coming late to the game with also-ran hadware is not an ideal spot to be in.

In overall sales volumes it doesn't matter that much in because the enthusiast market is pretty small...

You leveraged the enthusiast market as a cornerstone of the argument in your opening post by citing the sentiments in this forum which is made up primarily of enthusiats and by listing vehicles which appeal to enthusiasts. If that market doesn’t matter, we can end the discussion based on you reneging on your original hypothesis.

I suppose I don't understand the criticism of BMW for making a coupé when the thesis is that no-one wants a coupé.

I did not criticize that product, I praiesd it - “great performance coupe”.

I also did not say that no one wants a coupe. Clearly some people do want a high performance coupe, but it is just as clear that many more people want a high performance SUV or sedan.

It's been a good seller for an essentially niche vehicle, and how good it is vs. the TT, Cayman, Alpine and others is critical. It's not the making it a coupé that's "wrong", it's not putting that engine in a truck!

Which is exactly the point I made, so we agree on that.

It is also exactly what Mercedes and Audi have - a small SUV with the same engine and chassis that their hotest small coupe and/or sedan have. And it’s not US product, it’s global product.

Global and with its sights set on the US small premium sedan market? I don't understand you.

And that’s bacause you don’t understand the market. You want US specific products. But I am pointing out - and you are now acknowledging - global products from BMW’s competitors that sell well in the US, and also expose gaps in BMWs lineup that could be filled by global product like the truck that we agree above is missing.

You hypothesised that BMW was asleep at the wheel. Yet up until a month ago when the 1 was discontinued, they own the hot-hatch market here; the M140i is a performance bargain

Again, it’s not a US product. You were explicit in your opening post - US market. Is it a good product? Absolutely.

and the straight-six that you denigrated above (I thought BMW fans were happy that BMW stuck with that form factor?) is a great differentiator.

No, I did not denegrate the engine. I was only critical of BMW’s two-platform strategy which has kept and continues to keep the high performance engine and chassis they use in their small M coupe from being shared in their other form factor small vehicles - namely their SUVs, sedans, and next generation hatchbacks - and for not developing an alternate high performance solution that could be used instead in those vehicles.

Go back and read again. I said they were capable of it.

What you said was “until now”. But they do not have such an engine “now”, nor do they have any intention of offering one in the current and upcoming generation of small vehicles.

Look at their history. The fact that BMW does not produce a 400 bhp four-cylinder motor does not mean they will never produce one. If you doubt they are capable, then so be it.

I never asserted they do not have the capability. They obviously do. They just neglected to address this piece of the market. And yes, this is absolutely because they’ve dropped the ball.

X3 M40i - 382 bhp?

Wrong segment, wrong size. It’s no more a small SUV than the 3 Series is a small sedan. And just as you pointed out with that vehicle, the X3 has grown larger. There are now passenger car products below the 3, and there are SUVs below the X3 for that same reason.

Back to the original premise: what you need are small sedans and SUVs with 400 bhp+, presumably for going 155 mph in Montana. Sales of those in Germany, for example, are tiny. They all have 1.8 and 2.0 petrols and diesels.

We have those products already, just not from BMW. And so does Europe. Yes, they sell in small numbers - and yes, to enthusiasts, like the ones you brought up in your OP - in the US market just as they do everywhere else.

You also need electric vehicles like the Tesla,

As do many other markets which is why every manufacturer developing premium EVs is targetting a global audience. Every premium EV that has launched this year in the US is a global product. The same is true for next year.

and enthusiasts need extreme track cars you basically trailer to the circuit.

They do? And can you give examples that exist today? Or do none exist, but you think only BMW needs these to succeed in the US - no one else does?

What China needs is quite different; what Europe needs is obviously different again.

As I said in a prior post, the only thing significant that is specific to that market from premium manufacturers like BMW and their competitors is long wheel base form factor versions of existing global vehicles.

I see absolutely lots of reasons why BMW would consider splitting its product development off for the NA market, as it did with China, and I would put money on it.

I predict the exact opposite. BMW will not launch US specific vehicles. And furthermore any premium vehicle company who successfully navigates the disruption from EV/AV that is reshaping the automotive industry today and over the next few decades will do so with global product.