[atmosphericM]

There is a lot of good info here. I really appreciate everyone's help!

Hmm so much to say here, I'll do my best! And I'm going to apologize because this will likely be borderline gibberish, lol. There is so much to say and I don't have enough time to clean it up so please bear with it! I honestly hate to even put something so messy on the internet while attaching it to my name, but it is what it is.

I want to start this reply by talking about the 'culture' and type of place that I work, because I think it will address a lot of what you guys are suggesting. There are many things you guys are mentioning, such as asking how I can improve the work here, wondering how I've never had a review, etc. that all make sense if you're thinking about a typical business, but IMO this place is not typical. I could definitely be wrong, I'm in my young thirties and have limited life experience. But you know, when you go into most businesses, especially big ones, you get this feeling of.. "business." It isn't like that here. It's kind of a shit show, in fact, when compared lol. My boss is so distracted usually that he is probably barely doing what he NEEDS to do, and anything else (such as creating a good work environment) is completely lost to him. I think this is because he, nor his dad (owner of the company) have any formal, psychologically founded, training on how to manage a company and/or people. It's all from their personal experiences. And that's fine and all, especially when you have the same employee's for 20 years with no hiccups, but as I am new here, and the other older woman is getting ready to retire, I really wonder about the viability of this company going forward. If I left and the woman left in a week, this place would be in a tail-spin. They may not consciously think about that, but they should. Perhaps they're just trusting us. I know they're trusting her. Asking for this raise is how I can find out how they feel about me and what I do here.

Also, this is a dead end job. There really isn't anything to improve here that I haven't already improved in my first year (and I'm kinda kicking myself for making all the improvements BEFORE I asked for more money lol, because now I'm afraid they'll say "well you already fixed everything so now we can replace you"). They've been in the same business, doing the same thing, with virtually zero competition, for about 15 years. It is what it is. I see little to no effort by my manager to grow the company (even though he says he wants that). He just comes in for a few hours a day, does what he needs to, and then leaves to go do personal things. I am "happy" here right now because this piece fits into my puzzle. I am using this job for myself, and once I'm done with it, I will move on. But that will be to a different company. This is the type of job for someone like me, that will just stay for a few years as a stepping stone, or for someone who wants to have a very easy, simple, stress-free job that earns a meager wage for the rest of their life and is happy with that. That isn't me. I want to see the world. Sure, everyone here knows everything about each other (except for me), and I see how that could be nice, but it just isn't my kind of place, and they aren't my kind of people. We get along just fine, it's work... and I'm good at being friends with literally anyone.. but this isn't my crowd. I'm more of a polished individual. These guys are good ole boys. Again, I'm not judging, or hating, just stating. To each his own, in my book. But what I'm really trying to get at is.. this isn't your typical corporation with swanky new furniture and fancy coffee and everyone is dressed well and groomed, speaking of KPI's and the economy, a place where you can play the game and network, put in your time and work hard, and move up that ladder... this is a shit-hole with roaches crawling around, I am surrounded by individuals with lives that are absolutely depressing to me (child support wage garnishments, cars that are falling apart and surely not actually street-legal), a co-worker that is constantly complaining, as I've mentioned zero coaching or mentoring from the higher-ups, etc. etc. Half of the time my boss comes in in a ratty t-shirt and athletic shorts. He's the boss so he gets to. And it doesn't really bother me. But that's just the type of environment it is. And honestly, the fact that I have to work in such conditions is all the more reason I feel like I deserve to be paid better. As an accountant, as a degree'd professional, I feel that it's fair to *expect* a certain level of cleanliness and neatness in the office that's provided for me. This place is gross. Now, I don't really care THAT much, but if they wanted to replace me, that would definitely be a barrier for them because most people out there with my skills don't want to come somewhere like this on a daily basis. We are a different breed.

Job Title: This is good advice, perhaps I should care what it is. Honestly though, I've been raised in a time where finding a job is a numbers game and a resume is basically just an embellished lie that you've taken as far as possible (which IMHO is fair due to the landscape that's been created - i.e.
entry level positions requiring 3 years of experience). No one really cares about you as a person, and with the internet and data becoming what it is, people don't even seem to care to take the time to evaluate an person on an individual basis. It's more about how they can digitize you so that you can somehow neatly fit into their model. Because that's how we're going to explain the meaning of life one day, right? Ones and zeroes. laugh. The list of job titles has become so intricate and flooded that to me a title barely means anything. It's not like they are standardized, anyway. Your title depends on where you work as much as what you do. Furthermore, I'll put on my resume what I want to. You may disagree with this, but I'll put a title based upon what I did, not what my job gave me. If a future employer calls to check, is told a different title by HR, and then speaks with me "hey they said your title was X," I'll talk about it then. I'm not worried about a discrepancy in job titles keeping me from a position. That's the least of my worries in this game. I know what I do here, and it will be listed on my resume.

The way I'm positioning myself for my future is by trying to earn more money so that I can get out of education debt. I'm also trying to have a long-term position under my belt because that is apparently important to hiring managers (I won't even get started on what's dumb about that). Actually yes I will. Today employers will say "shhhh, don't tell anyone what we pay you!!" That way they can keep you down. Because if we all share what we make, we will have more information which inherently puts us, the employees, in a better position to bargain for more money. It isn't a mystery, the wealth in the world is going to a few. And it absolutely natural that they will do all that they can to keep every penny they can. It is OUR responsibility to fight for what is ours. It will not be given out, generally speaking. But anyway, it's funny because companies want you to stay in a job, with virtually no raise, for 3-5 years. They know, as well as we do, that they only way to (typically) be paid more is to move to a different company, so they punish us for doing just that! A year is a long time. It's long enough to master MOST jobs, yet heaven forbid you master something and want to improve yourself by moving to a new, higher role - and be compensated appropriately. Then you're an unreliable "job hopper." Nooo, it's not possible to just be a high achiever and driven! So if an HR worker is going to judge unjustly for a short stint at a position, I'll put whatever job title I want on there and I'll take my chances. This is the world, this is the game, that's how I play it. They should be more concerned with making judgement about me through personal conversation instead of what my previous employer says. I get it though. They're on the same side as my previous employer, they're the competition.

Look, I hate that I look at it as a competition, as a battlefield, and not as an environment where we all work together to improve things. But I assure you, I didn't arrive here due to my own actions. I arrived here through years of strife and eventually BS-ing and playing games because eventually it became apparent to me that one must. I hate how many things are in the world and believe that there are VERY few out there trying to change it for the true better. It is my goal in life to eventually find some of those people, one day. My cynicism makes me feel like that chance is quite small, sadly. But it is still doable, and the only person that can make it happen is ME.

If anyone out there is in the management game, older and trying to figure out how to deal with the issues related to hiring and retaining, and positively engaging an earlier generation in their work, take note. You have your work cut out for you.

I should admit that I went through trying to start a career in a bad time. I graduated in 2013 right when the market was absolute shit. It was depressing and to be honest it was the hardest time of my life, by far. I feel thrilled that I even managed to get through it. Now that I've sort of made it out, I see many of my younger peers feeling exactly as I did, struggling with the same crap, and I truly feel for them. Entering the wok force was an eye opening experience for me, and I've become a very cynical person because of it. I've seen the greed that people have and how hard it is for the lower-class that doesn't come from money and that stress-free background. I know what it's like to work your ever loving ass off, do everything *they* tell you to do, then have to be poor while you claw for scraps for years until you can manage to get your feet under you. My generation isn't going through the same things that previous generations have. Sure, this isn't the Victorian Era, I'm not saying this to complain or to ask for your pity, I'm saying it though because in all honesty, I feel that my age group is going through a very different situation when "starting out" than my parents' did. And that said, the situation is obviously very different depending on your personal background. Nothing was ever handed to me or even padded. And the few years I spent after college were, well, hell. I worked hard for my degree and thus expected a certain return. Folks, that return wasn't there, at least at first. Hopefully, as I age and life takes me where it takes me, that degree will pay off financially (already thrilled to have the knowledge), but so far I'm kicking myself for the debt versus the seemingly sliver of additional opportunities afforded.

OK.. moving on..

My boss has no idea what I do. The owner said one day "well all I know is that we are on a cash-basis accounting system.." We're not. I'm not a bad person, but with the push of a key I could wipe everything. Backups? Not unless I take the initiative to create them. LOL I even bought a hard drive so that my manager could start backing up his computer. I've offered more than once to spoon feed him the setup and process for backing up (which is OH so simple). The hard drive hasn't even left it's box after months. That is his WORK computer!! I guess he's never had a HD fail. If you ask me, management here has made a grave mistake by living this way. The manager should have some idea of what I do. He should have some sort of backup plan for if I left suddenly. They don't. He has to trust me, period. Which is why I think he will give me what I ask for, as long as it's reasonable. Again, I'm not a bad person - but I believe in justice. I take care of this company because it is my job, and because it's the right thing to do. They pay me what we agreed upon so I always deliver top-notch work. However, if I ask for a raise and then they come in one day and say "hey we need to let you go." LOL.. well all I really have to say is "bye." Without me they have no access to anything. Goodbye years of books (they don't even have paper copies for anything before me because the previous guy was so unorganized), goodbye even knowing wtf is going on financially, goodbye office network, etc. And good lucking bringing someone in here that is intelligent enough to rebuild from scratch on what they're currently paying me!

As I type this, I get so much more confidence. It's good to talk about and I really appreciate everyone here's engagement as much as their advice!

Personally I don't want to look for another position first because I just think that is wrong, and silly, and inefficient. Even though I'm cynical and feel like the work place is a battle-field, and that I have to fight for what is mine, doesn't mean I'm going to walk all over other people as I do so. I don't want to waste another hiring manager's time just so I can use his offer as leverage. That would make me a hypocrite. That is exactly the game that I loathe, the one that put me into depression for years, the one that is what's wrong with our society!! I am an idealist, yes, and I believe we should live in a world of reasonable transparency an accountability. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to just have a conversation with my boss. If he is honest with me and says they can't/won't pay more, THEN I'll look elsewhere. And I will. Or I'll just stay for a little while longer. If he's threatened by my ask and finds a replacement before I find work elsewhere... well, I've already addressed that. Thank goodness I at least have this power here. I truly feel for those in my position that have no real power over their employer. Unfortunately that happens all too often in work environments. It's sad when circumstances create an environment in which two entities cannot feel comfortable with the deal they've "agreed" to. This is especially present in states such as mine where a firm/boss can fire you for anything at all without even giving you a reason. TODAY's compensation is all we have anymore, a lot of the time. Times have changed. No more gold watch for working somewhere for 30 years. No more raises without a title/position change. Loyalty means nothing. People mean nothing. It's all about the dollar.

Respect: Honestly, I couldn't tell you in the slightest what my manager thinks of me. Not on a personal level, not on a professional level. To me, that already means he doesn't respect me. If he did, I would have been formally evaluated by now. Maybe he thinks I'm lazy. Maybe he doesn't care. I have no idea. Hell, I'm over here doing HIS job by even having these thoughts! So yeah, losing his respect is not something I'm afraid of. Gaining it would be nice, but after being here in this environment for over a year, I barely care anymore. I just want a bit more money so that I can make it out there in the world, and then I'll do my work and bide my time until I feel I'm in a position to look for that 'dream job.' One step at a time.

LOL, thinking back.. Guys, I've come across areas in the business that needed improvement. I then went out and gathered data, considered options, then presented it to management in a concise way. Once I did that and didn't even get a reply. CRICKETS. So I went ahead and tackled the initiative on my own, and improved things. But isn't that disheartening? That's just the kind of place this is. That's just how a lot of people out there are. If it isn't something that is on the tip of their nose due to absolute necessity, it isn't even a thing to them I guess. Those of you that have posted advice here, that are managers, may be (probably are) actual decent people who care about their employees, their job, etc. You're different than my manager lol. At least based upon what I see. I think that my manager sees accounting and IT like he see's walking. It's just something that, while so absolutely necessary, is so simple that a caveman could do it. If I have to leave, he'll figure it out real fast.

Really, a lot of what you are suggesting, such as keeping management informed of the things I do, suggesting new ways to improve the business, etc. Those are all things I do as a person. Those are things I did at previous jobs. But honestly, as I brought that here, it was essentially shot-down / so poorly received here that I learned to just keep to myself and do my job. One can only try to be involved so much before they give up. As you addressed, Jody, eventually I felt like it was more of a "look at me" instead of simple communication, even though it wasn't, because, well, apparently my communication didn't even warrant a reply. When I began here, coming from the corporate world, I had a feeling about how there SHOULD be communication among a team, and was often internally conflicted.. "should I CC my boss on this email? should I not bother him? etc." Eventually I settled into how I am now. I'd be happy to communicate more, but the way I look at it, here at least, is more like "this is my job, my duty, I take care of it so that my boss doesn't have to." So I won't put anything on his plate, not even a message, which is OK because everything is getting done. I guess I just got the feeling that that's how they like it. I'm not really part of a team, but more like my own team that has a loose connection. That works for them, I guess, because I actually DO do everything I need to. And because I'm like that, I deserve a raise. Heck, I have to basically pry things from my co-workers just so I can appropriately invoice our customers. Basically, we are on a need-to-know basis here, but you don't even quite get what you need lol.

OK.. moving on. I'm going to quote you DETroadster, as there are some specifics here I'd like to speak to.

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

1) Starting off with "I want a raise" is starting off on the wrong foot. You're making it all about you from the get go. If you want your boss' attention in a good way, make it about the company. "I'd like some additional responsibilities and challenges." That at least starts the conversation out in the right direction.

This bugs me. It is all about me. This meeting is about me. I already take care of the company. I'm already doing that. I'm there to make the situation more fair, in my eyes. How is this about the company, you ask? Because I'll continue to take care of the company. Otherwise, I'll leave, and that will hurt the company. People aren't always as disposable as companies might think!! But I do agree that starting the conversation off in a better manner will certainly provide a higher opportunity of an outcome I desire, at least from a psychological standpoint.

Now, if this situation was different, and I felt that I'm paid fairly, but want to earn more without going to a different place, then I would absolutely have more of the mindset your suggesting. This is different though. Here I'm just trying to 'get up to' where things already SHOULD be, at least in my eyes.

I do think that asking for more responsibilities is good though, and I'll add that into our conversation, for sure. I certainly have the time for the extra work. That said, I'll be surprised if he comes up with anything more for me to do.

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

2) I get employees who come in with researched salary data from Indeed, Glassdoor, etc. It goes right in the trash can. I put no value in it. It's too generic and does not speak to the micro economics of my industry, my location, my business. We pay a compensation analyst to review our positions and salaries on an annual basis across other similar sized companies and industries in our area. I'm putting my stock in what he says, not in what someone downloaded from the Internet. Besides, for every graph you show me that shows you are underpaid, I can find one that shows you are overpaid. I think this approach is a waste of time, IMO.

The microeconomics of an industry isn't necessarily relevant, is it? If you're evaluating salaries for a very specific position, that only applies to your industry, therefore limited to your 'microeconomy' then that's one thing. But if that employee can directly apply his or her skills to another industry, thus jumping ship, shouldn't that be considered in the compensation analysis? I've already admitted that Glassdoor, etc. are relatively weak, but it's about all we have. Word of mouth is more trustworthy and powerful, but it's kind of hard to present that in a hard way to a manager. At the end of the day it's all about convincing the other party of your views anyway. I gather that you couldn't care less about how someone feels when it's based upon that sort of data. The approach really is a waste of time, but if my manager needs more than my 'feelings' to persuade him, I have to go somewhere for that data. This firm's 'compensation analyst' is going to be him hitting up Craigslist for an hour to see what other jobs are offering.

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

3) Why are you not getting regular performance reviews? They are the basis for any discussion about merit, performance, and compensation changes.

I'm sure I've touched on this by now.

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

4) Go for a title change, not a salary change. The comp change will follow the title change. Pushing for a title change says "I want to do more". Pushing for a salary change says "I want to make more for doing the same." You said you are doing all sorts of things that are outside the scope of what you were hired for. Push to make those responsibilities official and wrap them up into a title / position change and the comp change will come along with it. If it doesn't follow, they are taking advantage of you and it's time to bail. Take your new title and show it off on your resume as you look for a different job.

Amen, but basically I feel like I'm already there. Now it's time to demand the comp or peace out. It's becoming clear that many people put a lot of stock in a title. I wonder how old you guys are.. seriously just curious. I couldn't care less what someone's title is. I care about what. they. do. Title's are just a dick measuring contest in my eyes.

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

5) Think bigger. Think strategic. Think global. Most employees of your tenure and experience are myopically focused on their jobs. One of the things I look for in a star employee who is capable of contributing at a higher level is someone who can take the blinder off and start to see what's going on not just with their role but with their team, their department, the company as a whole. With millions an revenue and 20 employees I guarantee you there's improvements to be made. Process, efficiency, etc. How can you help make the company more efficient, more profitable? Start asking those questions and looking to tackle larger problems; it all goes towards proving you are a key player who needs to be retained and promoted.

This is exactly who I am. I'm a big thinker in a tiny fish bowl (this place). But I need this fish bowl for a little longer, so that the silly HR folks at my next place of potential employment don't scoff at short tenures on my resume. One of these days I will find other people out there that care about what they do, care about the world as a whole, care to push themselves to be the best they can... but after 30+ years on this rock, I've found about 10 of that type, total. Eventually I (can only hope) to find a workplace that wants to actually IMPROVE instead of exist. But for now this is where I am. One step a a time, sir. As I mentioned earlier in this ridiculously long post of mine, I've already pretty much taken this position as far as it can go. It's sad that our society is now essentially making me sit here and wait as I have to now satisfy a 'time requirement' before I can successfully move on. So I'm just trying to make the best of it.

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

EDIT - One thing I forgot to mention: Understanding the company culture and the personal/professional attributes of the management team is critical. Everything I told you above can go right out the window, depending on the company so start with understanding where and who you work for. IS your boss a self-serving jerk who is afraid you will take charge and make him look bad? Does the company prefer to hand out promotions and comp changes based on favoritism and nepotism instead of a rigorous and balanced review process? Does the management team want driven, smart, people who are looking to excel or do they want people to shut the F up, keep their head down, and don't make waves? The advise I gave you above is based on a high-energy, hard driving company that only hires the best and is hell-bent on global domination. If you work for a lackluster company controlled by fear, apathy, and general laziness, well, my advise will likely change.

Give us the low-down on the company culture, the management team, and your direct boss. With that we can gave you much more targeted advice.

See, you get it. They are definitely the former around here.

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Great advice here from everyone. I'll just add a few bulleted points.

-Procure your current Job description.

-Develop your list of accomplishments since you started, especially outside of your defined role.

These are definitely something I need to work on a bit more. I need to get both of those down on paper in a more concrete manner.

Originally Posted by 2000cs

In all my decades of managing people I have never taken this bait. Why? Because if you go so far to get a viable, competing offer, you have made the mental break and I have lost your engagement already. Plus, now I don’t really trust you to be fully on board with our team. Don’t need lone wolves.

I'm curious, then. How do you feel one should come to you in order to convince you they deserve more for what they're doing (yes, that situation exists!). Others here have shot down the salary data approach, and you're shooting down the harder approach. I'm curious how you would do it.

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Same here, but for different reasons. In my experience, people talk; they share salaries with each other. Didn't used to be that way but it's changed over the last 3 to 5 years, particularly with the under 30 crowd. And the moment word gets out that you strolled into my office and got a raise for no particular reason other than you asked for it, I'll have created a huge nightmare for myself. Now if you roll out of there with a promotion and title change, no one is going to come to me with their hand out. Why? Because they see you actually changed rolls. They understand you worked for it, you took on more responsibilities. You didn't just stick your hand out and ask for more. They are all too lazy to do the same. They will mumble under their breath that they were just as qualified as you to get that promotion but at the end of the day they will understand that you stepped up and went for it and, well, they did not.

I don't understand. Isn't going out there and actually securing an offer also working for it? That takes a lot of work, and I'd be surprised if those other employees would do all that if they're in fact lazy. I feel that telling them the following would work quite well: "Well, another company saw what Hank was doing here and realized what he was worth and made him an offer. We value Hank so we wanted to pay him more so we can keep him. He deserves it. If you feel the same, do the same thing he did." If the employee doesn't deserve a raise, they won't get a competing job offer, and that will be the end of it. If the employee could earn more elsewhere, well IMO you might want to consider paying the employee more.

See, I'm glad that my generation is starting to talk about salaries because at the end of the day, leaving a job is our only power. Many of us are undervalued and unless we talk to each other openly about what else is really out there, we will continue to just sit here and work for peanuts because it's 'comfortable' for everyone and/or because we believe that we already have the best we can get when that isn't actually the case.

Don't get me wrong though. It's not just managers that are the 'enemy' or anything like that. Besides, most mangers have a manager of their own. But sadly I think the guys at the top are doing a good job of shuffling everyone right into their game, convincing the managers under them to take advantage of the employees further down the ladder without them realizing what they're actually doing to themselves.

Originally Posted by CTinline-six

There are a few things to consider:

1. You have to do no less than outstanding work. Prove that you come in, kick ass and take names before even discussing raise/title changes.

Amen. And done. The fact that my boss never has to think about accounting or IT is proof that I do that. That's how I see it. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by CTinline-six

2. What is the scope of your responsibility compared to when you started? As someone who works in IT, setting up an entire network isn't something you just ask someone to do in addition to their regular day to day office work if they aren't in that field.

Yeah, right?. I can't even tell you the hours I put in researching so that I could solve the dozen 'small' problems that came up as I completed such a task. But I just did it. And got ZERO kudos for it. Literally. Perhaps it was because I wasn't asked? But they shouldn't have to ask me, right? The way I see it, I'm the "IT guy" so it's my job. I tackled it as fast as I could. The employee I replaced had setup such a shoddy example that we were having network issues on a weekly basis. Tired of dealing with them and presented eventually with a situation in which there was no internet access without an entire overhaul, I did just that. Did anyone thank me? Well, I got a pay check. It would be nice to feel valued. It would be nice to be thanked. I guess I'm just already past that. I'm already cynical. I don't even care anymore. It's too late here. Just pay me more and that in itself will create a situation in which I'm happy to come to work each day because of what it affords me elsewhere in life. I don't have to be here forever and I'm okay 'grinning and bearing it' for a while.

When they interviewed me, they essentially said "you'll do all of the accounting but our current guy does IT too, can you do that? really it's nothing, we are small so the odd issue arises rarely." I said "sure! I can setup the new computer for you now and then, help so and so figure out how to setup that excel document, etc." Obviously, it's been far from what was described. Non-technical people, OR people who don't care to take the time to learn things (i.e. my boss) really need their hand held quite often in the workplace when it comes to computers, handheld devices, hell even copy machines. And because they *mentioned it to me in the interview* (nothing in my title related to IT, which is just further reason I don't care about title they *gave me*), they always come straight to me for help.

BTW, in case anyone is curious - Accountancy is not my end game. Never wanted to do it. Still don't want to, even though I now find it quite simple. I have no desire especially because of the incredible amount of money I'd have to spend to have the CPA designation... which of course without, I'll never be paid much. I fell into it as it was the first decent paying job I could acquire. And now here I am. Who knows where life will take me, but as of now I'm leaning toward going back to school for a masters in a more IT/data related discipline, such as MIS. Or perhaps I'll self-learn some languages and go that route. I love economics so I studied it, but never really wanted to do econ research all day long. Eventually I'd love to be in an administrative/decision making role for the government, to make the world a better place, but that is way down the road. My initial goal was to get into financial analysis right out of college, but it just didn't happen. In 2013 they were hiring 35 year old people with 10 years of experience to take entry level financial analysis jobs, at least in the city I live. I also looked in other near-by metropolises but it's also a lot about who you know in the higher paying jobs, it seems, and my family comes from, well poverty essentially, so we know no one in that arena.

Some of you were surprised that this OT thread stayed relatively clean and on topic. I feel that now that I'm ranting about life and "the work place" in general, that might have been short-lived.

Again, thanks to everyone for your input!