[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Agreeing with lucid here. You sound quite contradictory. One feels like it has more torque but the other is clearly faster (at low rpm).

Flat out, the M3 is faster - even at low and middling rpm. At part throttle and low rpm, the RS4 feels more responsive. Now that I've driven both, I agree with the myriad others that you and lucid beat up on way back when.

Originally Posted by swamp2

But then you go on to talk about "effortless" What is important to you, fast, "torquey", effortless or the sensation of fast?

All of those are important to me. Pretty much equally, I might add. Each of those attributes is a mighty fine thing to have in a car - to me.

Originally Posted by swamp2

For the great insight you have in to the perceptions of speed and the various contributing factors (yes discussed much in the past - and I thought we agreed 100%) I think it now sound like you just don't get it.

Perhaps with these answers, you will finally begin to get it. The idea that a car may have very different characteristics when just being chauffered around compared to when you're seriously hauling the mail is simple and elementary. lucid has recently commented on the Jekyl and Hyde characteristics of his car (my words, not his), in case you forgot. He thinks BMW had that in mind, and he very well may be right.

Everybody who has driven the car comments in one way or another about how the second half of the pedal and second half of the rev range are the good halves. What is so hard to understand about another car (the RS4, for instance) that may have slightly better first halves, and slightly worse second halves?

Originally Posted by swamp2

And the part about you and your butt being better than a real acceleromter - get over yourself, you can't truly believe that. Maybe the F1 guys should drop their telemetry programs entirely.

What I specifically said was: "I don't know about what others think, but I certainly think my "butt" is better than any accelerometer. I have a couple of them, and they are simply not part of this particular equation."

Other than the awkward wording, what I was trying to convey was that an accelerometer is of no use in determining part-throttle "feel". One car may answer the throttle better than another in a particular rpm range, with either more acceleration or a more linear feel, or both. Full throttle g readings are simply beside the point - except in a drag race, of course.

Bruce