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      07-30-2008, 09:27 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
How many UN rules did we ignore in the last 50 years.
How many countries did we invade?

All that you put above is crap compared to our "debacles"
You see, this is exactly why I'm hesitant to get involved in political threads. I post facts and I get the above response.

Another intellectually-stimulating post. Bravo! Posts like that undermine your position severely.

Care to debate the issue on a point-by-point basis and cite your sources? Show me where I'm wrong. I've cited three separate sources that prove that the Gulf War was never indeed over; Iraq violated the terms of the cease-fire, period. It was their actions that led to the UN's decision to go after him in the first place. How you can dismiss that as crap is beyond me. You obviously put a lot of thought and research into that position.

I'd be very interested to know exactly how many UN rules we've ignored in the last 50 years. I guarantee that, unlike Iraq, we didn't give the world the finger on 17 UN resolutions that were brought about as the result of our invasion of a sovereign country. I'd like to know how many countries we have invaded unilaterally and without provocation in the past 50 years as well. Please show your work as I did.

Honestly, sir, if your posts are an insight as to the mindset of a fervent Obama supporter, I weep for the future. The sad part is that your vote counts just as much as mine, so our votes will likely cancel one another out.

I am trying to figure out why you and others like you (and the Democratic party as of late) have such a complex of self-loathing, as evidenced by any number of your posts. Success and trying to see the good in ourselves is now apparently a bad thing in your eyes. Based on that, I'd guess that you probably also think that every kid should get a ribbon or trophy just for participating, because having a winner is detrimental to the ones that don't win - not unlike how you resent the US for being successful as that ends up making other countries feel inferior. Personally, I think this guy is on the mark when it comes to those of your ilk and is on topic when it comes to your post (I have put some sections in bold for emphasis):

American Self-Loathing

By Alan Caruba

If there is one trend I see in ascendancy in America it is a tremendous amount of self-loathing that is expressed by all manner of people about America. It is different from the typical criticism that is endemic to a society obsessed with self-improvement. The tone of the loathing is a belief that America is inherently bad.

What was bad about removing from power a pathological dictator named Saddam Hussein? What was bad in trying to bring some understanding and implementation of modern society, human rights, and a democratic form of government to a place littered with the mass graves of Iraqis? What was bad about removing from power a man who had waged war for eight years against Iran and who had invaded Kuwait? Is not a more peaceful Middle East to be preferred over one in the thrall of Saddam’s ambitions and greed?

What Iraq represents to me is America’s courage. When other nations look the other way, surrender to tyranny, substitute rhetoric for action, America can and will take up the burden of deterring men doing bad things that ultimately can harm the general welfare of the world.

My parent’s generation, fresh from a Depression, was not cowed by the attack on Pearl Harbor and took up arms against both the Japanese Empire and the Nazi and fascist regimes in Europe. Today, I actually hear some people say that America “deserved” to be attacked on 9/11. That is appalling. And absurd.

Lost in the midst of our concern over the rise of militant Islam is the fact that, having brought the Soviet Union to its knees after some four decades or more of resolutely resisting its efforts to expand Communism and its hegemony worldwide, Americans are too distracted to see its rise in South America and, worse, here at home where all kinds of Communist programs such as universal healthcare are proposed, the attacks on private property are unending, and an endless variety of laws to intrude into and control all aspects of our lives.

Major reasons America came into being was the concept of individual liberty, the essential right of private property, and freedom from taxes without representation. These were radical ideas at a time when monarchy ruled in most places of the world.

This tendency to blame America for the world’s ill is bad for our national soul and wrong beyond description. It plays to people’s worst instinct, the desire to tear down that which is good and cast blame on everyone but themselves. America still does most things astonishingly well and much better than in other nations.

What we have been permitting since the end of World War II is the growth of the federal government and its increased control of too many aspects of our lives. Big government isn’t the answer. It’s the problem.
I hope that hits close to home. Perhaps, you should take a moment to reflect upon that.

For the record, I am a registered Democrat and my views typically lean toward Libertarian. What bothers me is that though I am middle-of-the-road when it comes to my views, both candidates are to the left of me - one of them significantly. I'd rather not vote for either of them; however, I'm only really left with the choice of voting for the one that most closely reflects my values. That, in my opinion, is a sad commentary on the state of politics in this country.