Custom ECU Tuners

This will be great to see....

to powertrip and ESS. Much more gentlemanly than what's going on in the other "new" bimmer forum.

Damn, nice writeup cleveland. A+

I'm an Independent, I have a dyno and an M3. I am not in bed with any BMW vendors. Though I do own a shop, and have sold/installed their products. I have done numerous before and after tests for Japanese vehicles. I can offer a true and unbiased results as I possible can time and weather permitting. I was planning on preforming true back to back testing when car arrives next week. I would love to help. To me the ECU is the biggest Mystery to me as information is so heavily guarded.

I have done testing on an E60 M5 when they came out with different mods and flashes. Needless to say I have never been that confused. If I had access to the ECU or better data-logging equipment that would have helped tremendously.

I am open to options.

PencilGeek wrote

I'd really like to get to the bottom of this and put an end to this endless debate. To me, the only way to do that is with some testing that's done in a much more scientific way.



With that in mind, I just spent over an hour pouring through the Dyno Database. I looked at every entry that had an ECU tune. I was specifically looking for before/after results on independent dynos where the only change was the ECU. To me, and independent dyno test is one where the vendor is not involved -- it's simply the customer taking his car to the dyno. Here's what I found.

• Other than my own tests, not a single before/after independent dyno test exists in the DynoDB. Some independent tests were performed, but there either was no before test to compare against, or multiple components were installed on the vehicle at the same time.
• Many submissions were ECU only, but where the vendor was present and cannot be independently verified.

So in a nutshell, here's what I discovered: there's not a single instance of an independent dyno run on any ECU tuning -- other than my own tests with AA software. I think it's more important now than ever to get these tests done and put an end to this endless debate.

Lemans_Blue_M wrote

I agree 100%, one-off 'custom tunes' are a fallacy on this car.

Customers have been sold on this concept, because many guys lack a basic understanding of how engines/ECU's work. (fact)

Or... they believe that cars are still tuned exactly the same way they were 5, 10, or even 15 years ago.

That leaves many BMW enthusiasts vulnerable to all sorts of bogus marketing propaganda. (regardless of the product being discussed)

New innovative engine management technologies are always advancing, always improving the tuning methods used in modern engines. The really good tuners are going to figure out the best way to utilize that new technology.

In order to build a safer, more reliable tune (that can also extract more horsepower and torque) vs. the conservative stock tuning loaded into OEM ECU's), will require a knowledge base that very few tuners actually have in regards to BMW cars.

The very complex encryption on our factory ECU's, means that any tuner will have his work cut out for him if he intends to write a file for our cars.

BMW's are notoriously difficult to tune properly, because that's how BMW AG wants it. They make it very difficult to access the raw software code, and many of the tables/maps are not easily manipulated. Tuning a M3 vs. tuning a Dodge diesel truck is like night and day. Even tuning a Porsche or Lambo is child's play compared to an M3.

BMW's are the most difficult cars in the world to tune.

Again...that's exactly how BMW want's it.

They set traps for tuners all the time...you guys just don't know about it since you never talk to the few individuals in the world who actually tune BMW ECU's for a living. (and have done so for the past 10-20 years)

Despite the best efforts of some members here to educate others, I have to admit this...

A very well executed marketing campaign is incredibly difficult to beat sometimes.

Man, I can't wait to see the posted results of this shootout. (and the comments that follow it)

Just my .02 fellas...

I am completely & absolutely boggled.

In a good way.

FStop7 wrote

Why can't it be made clear now?

I'm still writing my piece on this. Right now it's way too long and I need to adjust it so that everyone can understand it.

PencilGeek wrote

Here's what was discussed in a previous thread...

I've read in a previous thread that clearing adaptation values during a reflash can cause a 10-15hp gain on the dyno. That's why I'd like to see a few people with custom tunes go back to the same dyno a month or more later to try to duplicate their results. If a few people did this simple test and posted their results, then this discussion could be put to rest.

Maybe one or more of the tuners reading this thread can comment on the dyno effects of clearing adaptation values.

The MSS60 ECU is incredibly quick to adapt to changes. Usually within 2 dyno runs we see the maximum power from our own tune. Subsequent dyno pulls produce no more power.

Last year we imported an AA exhaust and the customer wanted an AA tune also. We did some extensive testing back then on how the car would react to the tune. The gain from the tune was real and it was made straight away. The graph shape was completely different so we knew it wasn't just a phase shift of the graph. After returning the car back to the stock setting the power went back down and the graph shape changed back also.

No matter how many times we dyno'ed the car the results were consistent.

That's how quick this ECU is.

Resetting the adaptive memory has very little effect after a tune has been applied. There is certainly not 15hp worth of power available from just resetting adaptation! Unfortunately Bavtech doesn't have this feature so the general public cannot test it as the basic version of this tool is owned by many people. Once this command is added people can test it for themselves.

If a sudden increase in power is being on a dyno then there are only two explanations:

1) A tune has given a genuine HP increase
2) Someone messed around with the correction factors or how the car is strapped on the dyno

Everything is ok with difference ECU tuners. If you want results, you have to go with your car. Just sending an ECU,and recieving back is BS

Lemans_Blue_M wrote

I agree 100%, one-off 'custom tunes' are a fallacy on this car.

I think I can confidently say people take you seriously on this forum and I would personally like to thank you for coming into this and agreeing on the basic truth.

Customers have been sold on this concept, because many guys lack a basic understanding of how engines/ECU's work. (fact)

Or... they believe that cars are still tuned exactly the same way they were 5, 10, or even 15 years ago.

Sad but true!

That leaves many BMW enthusiasts vulnerable to all sorts of bogus marketing propaganda. (regardless of the product being discussed)

New innovative engine management technologies are always advancing, always improving the tuning methods used in modern engines. The really good tuners are going to figure out the best way to utilize that new technology.

In order to build a safer, more reliable tune (that can also extract more horsepower and torque) vs. the conservative stock tuning loaded into OEM ECU's), will require a knowledge base that very few tuners actually have in regards to BMW cars.

The very complex encryption on our factory ECU's, means that any tuner will have his work cut out for him if he intends to write a file for our cars.

The reading of the MSS60 was cracked by the tool makers long ago.
Just so that people are not confused - writing a file means we make changes to maps we have highlighted based on our own understanding of the code and our strategy of how to tune an engine.
Writing a file does not mean we re write the entire code from scratch.

BMW's are notoriously difficult to tune properly, because that's how BMW AG wants it. They make it very difficult to access the raw software code, and many of the tables/maps are not easily manipulated. Tuning a M3 vs. tuning a Dodge diesel truck is like night and day. Even tuning a Porsche or Lambo is child's play compared to an M3.

Accessing the raw software code could not be easier. Finding the maps is even quite easy if you have the instructions on where the maps are.
The hardest bit is the strategy on how to extract power safely. Which maps do we highlight and what changes do we make to which maps.
Are we going to go old school and concentrate on adding timing or are we going to sit there and scale all of the maps correctly with the correct values and then study what's actually going on with this engine?

Porsche's are just as hard to tune as a BMW if you don't know what your doing and relying on out of date tuning methods.


BMW's are the most difficult cars in the world to tune.

Again...that's exactly how BMW want's it.

They set traps for tuners all the time...you guys just don't know about it since you never talk to the few individuals in the world who actually tune BMW ECU's for a living. (and have done so for the past 10-20 years)

Despite the best efforts of some members here to educate others, I have to admit this...

A very well executed marketing campaign is incredibly difficult to beat sometimes.

Man, I can't wait to see the posted results of this shootout. (and the comments that follow it)

Just my .02 fells...

,

z00m wrote

Just sending an ECU,and recieving back is BS

Why?

It's no different than you going to over 90% of the tuners out there who don't physically change the software themselves and write in the very same changes that everyone else gets.

There's nothing wrong with this if their tune/remap is well designed and is proven to work.

What makes one car so different from another that it needs some 'special' setting unless it has modifications carried out to it that the tuner has never dealt with before. Onyly then does a tune become custom and pretty much immediately ceases to be custom because the tuner has developed a out of the box solution for that setup.

All the E9x M3's have the same software (assuming all cars have BMW updates done), they all perform pretty much the same and we are talking about a very well engineered engine here which is made to very tight tolerances. If it was so important to custom tune every car than BMW would do it from the factory.

I hope that makes sense to you.

Sal@Evolve wrote

Why?

It's no different than you going to over 90% of the tuners out there who don't physically change the software themselves and write in the very same changes that everyone else gets.

There's nothing wrong with this if their tune/remap is well designed and is proven to work.

What makes one car so different from another that it needs some 'special' setting unless it has modifications carried out to it that the tuner has never dealt with before. Onyly then does a tune become custom and pretty much immediately ceases to be custom because the tuner has developed a out of the box solution for that setup.

All the E9x M3's have the same software (assuming all cars have BMW updates done), they all perform pretty much the same and we are talking about a very well engineered engine here which is made to very tight tolerances. If it was so important to custom tune every car than BMW would do it from the factory.

I hope that makes sense to you.

The fuel quality is so different in different countries. + if you have any other mods - the AFR will be not really briliant with just a reflash for somekind of octane fuel. And with no car on dino before and after. Again BS
I hope that makes sense to you too

Sal@Evolve wrote

Why?

It's no different than you going to over 90% of the tuners out there who don't physically change the software themselves and write in the very same changes that everyone else gets.

There's nothing wrong with this if their tune/remap is well designed and is proven to work.

What makes one car so different from another that it needs some 'special' setting unless it has modifications carried out to it that the tuner has never dealt with before. Onyly then does a tune become custom and pretty much immediately ceases to be custom because the tuner has developed a out of the box solution for that setup.

All the E9x M3's have the same software (assuming all cars have BMW updates done), they all perform pretty much the same and we are talking about a very well engineered engine here which is made to very tight tolerances. If it was so important to custom tune every car than BMW would do it from the factory.

I hope that makes sense to you.

I believe this to be true on stock vehicles, but what about cars that have different combination of aftermarket performance parts. The VE will not be the same between them like in a production vehicle.

masitr wrote

I believe this to be true on stock vehicles, but what about cars that have different combination of aftermarket performance parts. The VE will not be the same between them like in a production vehicle.

If your M3 had Schrick Cams and you approached us for a tune and wanted to send your ECU we would point black refuse to do it at this moment in time.
Why?
Because we've never ever come accross an E92 M3 with cams.

I think we are talking the same language. You only need a custom tune when your setup is 'new' to your tuner.

Also, what additions to your vehicle setup warrant a change in the standard tune? Adding a K&N filter doesn't require a different tune. The ECU is more than capable of adjusting the fuelling for this small change. There is a long list of additions which don't actually require any change in the ECU programme to cater for that change.
The engine management systems are incredibly sophisticated in these cars.

You can sit there all day trying to adjust the tune specifically for alot of the bolt on parts. It won't make a difference in the power output of the engine.

I think too many people are still stuck in the old ages and think these cars don't have any sensors and run on carbs!

z00m wrote

The fuel quality is so different in different countries. + if you have any other mods - the AFR will be not really briliant with just a reflash for somekind of octane fuel. And with no car on dino before and after. Again BS
I hope that makes sense to you too

It does make sense if we were talking about a BMW E30.

I know where your coming from and I understand your concerns but it is important that you understand also where I am coming from by telling you how sophisticated your car is.

Limits and target values

Sal@Evolve wrote

If your M3 had Schrick Cams and you approached us for a tune and wanted to send your ECU we would point black refuse to do it at this moment in time.
Why?
Because we've never ever come accross an E92 M3 with cams.

I think we are talking the same language. You only need a custom tune when your setup is 'new' to your tuner.

Also, what additions to your vehicle setup warrant a change in the standard tune? Adding a K&N filter doesn't require a different tune. The ECU is more than capable of adjusting the fuelling for this small change. There is a long list of additions which don't actually require any change in the ECU programme to cater for that change.
The engine management systems are incredibly sophisticated in these cars.

You can sit there all day trying to adjust the tune specifically for alot of the bolt on parts. It won't make a difference in the power output of the engine.

I think too many people are still stuck in the old ages and think these cars don't have any sensors and run on carbs!

Can you shed some light on how the engine management works? Sensor relationship, etc and how the ecu is sophisticated enough to accommodate a variety of bolt on parts under seemingly 2 blanket tunes (with and w/o cats).

That was the point to this thread.

It sparked my interest when I saw a recent dyno on a plenum upgrade. The A/F went richer in the upper RPM band in comparison to the stock plenum. It made me think that the ECU is more sensitive to intake mods i.e more than a filter. Was the ECU referencing a different cell group that the stock vehicle will never see. Or if the ECU is target based was it too far from the target to compensate properly/accurately. Beats me... I don't know how this ECU works. Thats why I'm asking.

The operating system that runs the MSS60 is very sophisticated. It cannot be thought of like the older systems that would benefit from custom tuning. On older systems you could assign values like timing for specific RPM’s based on fuel quality and other factors. On these older systems you can benefit from custom tuning if the tuner knows what he is doing. On newer systems these rules have all changed

On this car the operating system is a self correcting, adaptation based platform. How it works is you pre-select a target for things like AFR and ignition timing targets. The ECU will always execute that target when it can. If the target cannot be reached due to fuel quality, AIT’s or any other reason it will self correct to run as close to target as it can while keeping the motor safe. Each cylinder in the S65 is monitored independently for optimal timing. When corrections need to be made due to variances such as cylinder pressure the ECU will custom tune the spark for that cylinder. This system allows the car to always perform at an optimum level regardless of the situation or condition of the motor. Because of this there is no way to custom tune it. You can cheat by setting targets much higher than the ECU can correct but this is never a good idea as you are simply forcing the ECU to run settings it knows is unsafe.

The only changes you can make to the system outside of what it self corrects are things like vanos calibration, larger fuel injectors calibration cylinder displacement calculations, torque limits, rev limit, top speed governor etc.. these are all things that can be modified to improve performance but none of these would need to be custom tuned for a stock motor or a car running simple bolt on mods. The only time you would need to custom tune the MSS60 is if you had major modification such as modified displacement, aftermarket cams, forced induction or a full catless exhaust that had some sort of problem making power at certain RPM’s requiring different cam settings to work optimally.

masitr wrote

Can you shed some light on how the engine management works? Sensor relationship, etc and how the ecu is sophisticated enough to accommodate a variety of bolt on parts under seemingly 2 blanket tunes (with and w/o cats).

That was the point to this thread.

It sparked my interest when I saw a recent dyno on a plenum upgrade. The A/F went richer in the upper RPM band in comparison to the stock plenum. It made me think that the ECU is more sensitive to intake mods i.e more than a filter. Was the ECU referencing a different cell group that the stock vehicle will never see. Or if the ECU is target based was it too far from the target to compensate properly/accurately. Beats me... I don't know how this ECU works. Thats why I'm asking.

I can tell you how it works. Right now it's 11pm over here though It takes a little concentration to write something like this so it makes sense. It has to be very well structured for it to make sense. Phone me up and I will explain instead....so much easier!...lol

Good observations you made there about AFR.

Get a stock M3 and dyno it 4 times. The AFR will most likely jump up and down in different places anyway.

Plenum would need to be way different to stock for the ECU to really go out of range. I doubt any plenum that will physically fit under the bonnet can make much of a difference.
Larger displacement is when it all starts getting very interesting!

Infact, changing an M3 to run purely on LPG is when it starts getting even more juicy! Now that requires a custom tune which is so different it's unreal!
Target Lambda values for part and full loads, ignition targets, fuel density and stoichometric values + loads of other values + fuel factoring for each cylinder + fuel injection factors......ete etc etc.....

Rom3n wrote

The operating system that runs the MSS60 is very sophisticated. It cannot be thought of like the older systems that would benefit from custom tuning. On older systems you could assign values like timing for specific RPM’s based on fuel quality and other factors. On these older systems you can benefit from custom tuning if the tuner knows what he is doing. On newer systems these rules have all changed

On this car the operating system is a self correcting, adaptation based platform. How it works is you pre-select a target for things like AFR and ignition timing targets. The ECU will always execute that target when it can. If the target cannot be reached due to fuel quality, AIT’s or any other reason it will self correct to run as close to target as it can while keeping the motor safe. Each cylinder in the S65 is monitored independently for optimal timing. When corrections need to be made due to variances such as cylinder pressure the ECU will custom tune the spark for that cylinder. This system allows the car to always perform at an optimum level regardless of the situation or condition of the motor. Because of this there is no way to custom tune it. You can cheat by setting targets much higher than the ECU can correct but this is never a good idea as you are simply forcing the ECU to run settings it knows is unsafe.

The only changes you can make to the system outside of what it self corrects are things like vanos calibration, larger fuel injectors calibration cylinder displacement calculations, torque limits, rev limit, top speed governor etc.. these are all things that can be modified to improve performance but none of these would need to be custom tuned for a stock motor or a car running simple bolt on mods. The only time you would need to custom tune the MSS60 is if you had major modification such as modified displacement, aftermarket cams, forced induction or a full catless exhaust that had some sort of problem making power at certain RPM’s requiring different cam settings to work optimally.

Good explanation.

This is as simple as an explanation can get. It's probably far easier to understand than anything I would have put up!