Saw a BYD in SoCal

Etymology: The word stems from the Latin ingratus (meaning "not pleasing" or "unthankful"), combining the prefix in- ("not") with gratus ("grateful" or "pleasing").

Synonyms: Thankless person, ungrateful wretch, and unappreciative individual.

Davil wrote
And no. We are not talking about a free market in this case. It is government backed and runs at an intentional loss to get market share.

How do you know? Where is the data to substantiate this extraordinary claim?
I will give you a clue - BYD is a publicly traded company. Feel free to peruse its income statement if you care to educate yourself.

Davil wrote
I don’t have anything against Chinese people. What I dislike is a fairly blatant top down approach to destroying free market dynamics in the automotive industry.

US and European auto industries has not seen free market dynamics ... ever. Few countries subsidize and bail-out its automakers more aggressively and frequently than the US, including recently.

Davil wrote
Granted this is currently aimed at the bottom end appliance buyer but this will alter the dynamics for the entire industry given time.

There is nothing bottom-end about BYD products.
If you were better informed, you would not be making these inflammatory statements.

a

The us automakers paid back their Tarp loans with interest and ahead of schedule. I have posted the FACTS on this earlier.
The China auto makers all have VERY clear connections to the CCP and it a short trip to GROK for the proof.

"If you were better informed, you would not be making these inflammatory statements."

HDMI wrote
No.
None of those mentioned are adversaries of the United States of America.

It's not at all clear who US adversaries are these days.
Our leadership is sucking up to all sorts of dictators, including many on your list of (previously presumed) adversaries.

Basically, our foreign policy is for sale.
Your country (Pakistan, UAE, etc.) buys few $100+M in certain cryptocurrency tokens and memecoins, or licenses certain brand names (Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman), and US will do your bidding.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/trump-family-rakes-in-cash-from-middle-east-deals-b91a9927?mod=politics_feat1_elections_pos4

HDMI wrote
None of those mentioned are trying to bring down the United States of America by any means necessary.

Care to share the evidence of those being China's official state goals?

HDMI wrote
The world needs a strong USA to counter China, Russia, Middle East, Cuba, North Korea, and to partially help the EU.

I agree on that, in principal.
Sadly, that ship has sailed.

My prediction - after a few "strategic investments" after mid-terms by China into certain cryptocurrencies and branding deals, US will open up our domestic auto market to Chinese brands.

IMHO,
a

Car-Addicted wrote
The us automakers paid back their Tarp loans with interest and ahead of schedule. I have posted the FACTS on this earlier.

Sorry, but that's historical white-washing by US auto apologists:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/12/30/auto-bailout-tarp-gm-chrysler/21061251/

And the -$9.26B TARP (under #42) does not count earlier 2008 $17.4B in emergency loans to GM & Chrysler under #41.
Or the additional $26.5B cost of special treatment of UAW parasites:
https://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/research/detail/the-obama-administrations-auto-bailout-failure

Car-Addicted wrote
The China auto makers all have VERY clear connections to the CCP and it a short trip to GROK for the proof.

You base your arguments on AI slop?
Really?
Do better!

25 V8 IS wrote
And? Everything in China is tied back to the CCP. They are in charge of everything there.

So that's your boogie-man argument - Chinese companies do business in a country ruled by a party you don't like, so thus they are always evil and US auto companies are always good.

That's the gist and the depth of it, right?

Do better!

YMMV,
a

I think you're being a little obtuse in understanding how a completely different political system and state controlled industry gets handled vs the westernized way where its Governments pitted versus businesses.

I would definitely not say that the western way is not necessarily "the right way" meaning over-regulate, and then subsidize when the stupid regulations backfire but it's really not a normal comparison to have literally any western auto-manufacturer vs a state subsidized and guided auto-manufacturer with the entirety of it's industrial based subsidized and regulated by said government.

afadeev wrote

Care to share the evidence of those being China's official state goals?

a

What evidence do you expect to see? Does their recent past actions count or do they need to say it out loud for you to believe it. They took back Hong Kong they, want Taiwan, they are disputing Japan for control over some of their Islands.

Do you think they are not expansionist? Do you think they don’t have a desire to spread communism or their control. Do you think they don’t have a goal to financially enslave other countries?

Altamate wrote
What evidence do you expect to see?

Anything from Chinese themselves that would validate your claims.
For example:
- North Korea publicly declares" U.S. "imperialism" as the primary existential threat to the state."
- Iran routinely calls the U.S. government the "Great Satan."
- Russian government explicitly identifies the U.S. and its Western allies as the primary instigators of an "existential threat" and a hybrid war aimed at weakening Russia.
- Venezuela officially blames U.S. "economic warfare" and sanctions for domestic challenges and regularly accuses Washington of plotting regime change. *well, touche on that one*.

I can't find anything from China about "bringing down the United States of America by any means necessary", as you claimed.

Altamate wrote
Does their recent past actions count or do they need to say it out loud for you to believe it. They took back Hong Kong they, want Taiwan, they are disputing Japan for control over some of their Islands.

Sure, I would agree that those are ambitions against Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Japan.
You claimed that China, and I quote: "trying to bring down the United States of America by any means necessary.".

Actual evidence of that policy, beyond economic competition, would be great to substantiate your claim.

Altamate wrote
Do you think they are not expansionist? Do you think they don’t have a desire to spread communism or their control. Do you think they don’t have a goal to financially enslave other countries?

I don't think China is any more "communist" than the US is "democratic" these days.
They have a party in power, that wants to hold onto that power by any and all means, including rigging elections.
They have a dictatorial leader of that party that tolerates no descent or debate with the opposition.
They have a growing economy, and are competing with us for the markets to sell their goods and services.

All of that is not helpful for the US economic and political influence around the world. But none of that attests to China attempting to "bring down the United States of America by any means necessary".

I am open to reevaluating my position if you provide evidence to substantiate your claims.

TIA,
a

Altamate wrote
What evidence do you expect to see? Does their recent past actions count or do they need to say it out loud for you to believe it. They took back Hong Kong they, want Taiwan, they are disputing Japan for control over some of their Islands.

Do you think they are not expansionist? Do you think they don’t have a desire to spread communism or their control. Do you think they don’t have a goal to financially enslave other countries?

Thinking of someone closeby doing the same thing... but that's politics.

Altamate wrote
What evidence do you expect to see? Does their recent past actions count or do they need to say it out loud for you to believe it. They took back Hong Kong they, want Taiwan, they are disputing Japan for control over some of their Islands.

Do you think they are not expansionist? Do you think they don’t have a desire to spread communism or their control. Do you think they don’t have a goal to financially enslave other countries?

you seem brainwashed by propaganda which directly feeds the public opinion desired by politicians. As an example check out the link below:

https://brilliantmaps.com/invaded-by-britain/

In the last 30y US (and UK plays along in many cases) has killed more people than any other country and continues to bomb other countries daily without any international approvals. Are those countries being bombed attacking US? Just take a look how many wars Obama started and then won Nobel piece prize! wtf!!

How about all those European colonies all over the world?? Ah those are ok!

There is so much more but you need to travel around the world and see for yourself vs repating what’s being served for you to gobble up by rulling parties and companies.

afadeev wrote
Anything from Chinese themselves that would validate your claims.
For example:
- North Korea publicly declares" U.S. "imperialism" as the primary existential threat to the state."
- Iran routinely calls the U.S. government the "Great Satan."
- Russian government explicitly identifies the U.S. and its Western allies as the primary instigators of an "existential threat" and a hybrid war aimed at weakening Russia.
- Venezuela officially blames U.S. "economic warfare" and sanctions for domestic challenges and regularly accuses Washington of plotting regime change. *well, touche on that one*.

I can't find anything from China about "bringing down the United States of America by any means necessary", as you claimed.

Sure, I would agree that those are ambitions against Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Japan.
You claimed that China, and I quote: "trying to bring down the United States of America by any means necessary.".

Actual evidence of that policy, beyond economic competition, would be great to substantiate your claim.

I don't think China is any more "communist" than the US is "democratic" these days.
They have a party in power, that wants to hold onto that power by any and all means, including rigging elections.
They have a dictatorial leader of that party that tolerates no descent or debate with the opposition.
They have a growing economy, and are competing with us for the markets to sell their goods and services.

All of that is not helpful for the US economic and political influence around the world. But none of that attests to China attempting to "bring down the United States of America by any means necessary".

I am open to reevaluating my position if you provide evidence to substantiate your claims.

TIA,
a

You have credited me 3 times with a statement I have not made, what I have said is China has no legal court system to enforce civil laws, they do not honour intellectual property or patents from other countries and will steal it.

I said that in post #52 in this thread and told a story I lived through outlining how I and the company I worked for experienced this.

I will add, because of the above, I am certain, the data they collect from your phones/computers/cars that they sell you will not only be monetized it will be scrubbed for intellectual property which they will use if it suits them. This is because they think they should take advantage of this information when they can. We found this out the hard way.

Lastly I have said that they also will have no problem or no issue weaponizing any information they glean from devices they sell into foreign countries.

I have not specified the USA or used the words “any means necessary”?

Mavus wrote
Are those countries being bombed attacking US?

So Irans leader’s yell “Death to America” they fund 3 terrorist organizations bombing US allies and are enriching Uranium to make nuclear weapons, but that does not count?

Altamate wrote
So Irans leader’s yell “Death to America” they fund 3 terrorist organizations bombing US allies and are enriching Uranium to make nuclear weapons, but that does not count?

They aren't enriching uranium. White House press release from June 25, 2025 said their program was totally obliterated and they would take years to recover. Don't take my word of it, find the press release and read it.

Although, I know I sleep better at night knowing we've spawned an entire new generation of people in the ME that hate America by fighting a proxy war for Israel. For sure none of them will grow up to become terrorists.