Ohlins Dedicated Track Coilover Kit

Track/S wrote

How can spring rate influence rotation? I have tried many suspensions from OEM hardness to 150nm in full coilover. I can give you 3 examples, number 1 is the one that rotates the best and number 3 the worst.

1. M4 GTS oem alignment, 275/285, kw clubsport

2. M3 E92 295square, -2° front camber 0toe, rear -2° camber, toe in 3mm total, drexler diff, nitron r3 140/150nm.

2. M2 Competition, 295square -2° front camber, toe out 1.5mm total, rear camber -1.5° toe in 3.5mm total, drexler diff, mcs 140/120nm


None of these three care about spring rate to rotate.

Wait, you’re talking about yaw rate, not roll rate?

There’s a couple between roll and yaw due to cross-products of moments of inertia. So when you attempt to induce yaw, the outer rear corner squats. A car with too much front stiffness (i.e., relatively soft rear springs) will want to push as you try to initiate the turn rather than rotate the rear. It’s tied to the steady-state balance of the car (i.e., zero damper piston relative velocity so no damping forces). A car with massive static understeer, which is directly related to spring rates, will not want to rotate/yaw.

One trick to help rotate the car is to overdamp the rear dampers.

M3SQRD wrote

Wait, you’re talking about yaw rate, not roll rate?

There’s a couple between roll and yaw due to cross-products of moments of inertia. So when you attempt to induce yaw, the outer rear corner squats. A car with too much front stiffness (i.e., relatively soft rear springs) will want to push as you try to initiate the turn rather than rotate the rear. It’s tied to the steady-state balance of the car (i.e., zero damper piston relative velocity so no damping forces). A car with massive static understeer, which is directly related to spring rates, will not want to rotate/yaw.

One trick to help rotate the car is to overdamp the rear dampers.

Exactly, about yaw rate!

Track/S wrote

Exactly, about yaw rate!

I don’t know if you watch F1 but Verstappin’s Red Bull in the Dutch GP FP3 would not rotate. As a result, he could not touch the throttle until way past the apex. The FIA modified a technical regulation related to the brakes during the summer break. It now clearly states no asymmetric braking (i.e., equal brake torque must be applied on the left and right) is allowed on either the front or rear axles. The rumor is Red Bull had been using asymmetric braking in slow corners since the 2022 technical regulations to help rotate the car. Due to the cars now using ground effect downforce, the cars require an extremely stiff mechanical setup (plus the FIA banned complex multiple damper setups because they couldn’t determine if they were legal which further compromised mechanical grip) to maintain really low ride heights and, consequently, they lack mechanical grip in slow corners. Red Bull found a novel way to help rotate their cars in slow corners! A few months ago the FIA supposedly told them to stop using it and Red Bull hasn’t won a race since removing asymmetrical braking from their car.

The biggest difference is rake and RB esp Max ran the most. Out of all his team mates pre height mandate 2022 and 2021, he could tolerate the most rake. Gasly/Albon were off, too responsive and over-rotation for them.
It's not just the rear brake fiddle. Nor just spring rates, flat ride, big bar and soft rates, small bar and stiff rates. Far more to it esp when aero is introduced and how/where the peak pressure is.

The use of toe, is literally a yaw damping tool. AM/Bronze (aka no talent) drivers are fed this in most GT3 series. The faster one get away and use less tyres as a result of it.

gmx wrote

The biggest difference is rake and RB esp Max ran the most. Out of all his team mates pre height mandate 2022 and 2021, he could tolerate the most rake. Gasly/Albon were off, too responsive and over-rotation for them.
It's not just the rear brake fiddle. Nor just spring rates, flat ride, big bar and soft rates, small bar and stiff rates. Far more to it esp when aero is introduced and how/where the peak pressure is.

The use of toe, is literally a yaw damping tool. AM/Bronze (aka no talent) drivers are fed this in most GT3 series. The faster one get away and use less tyres as a result of it.

2022 on, rake is no longer a setup parameter with ground effect cars where you want to maintain a low ride height to seal the floor. So you’re saying RB was running forward rake in 2022? Albon and Gasly drove 2019-2020 cars, not 2022 ground effect cars. If mechanical grip is available then why has every driver since 2022+ complained about lack of mechanical grip, harsh ride setups and curbs are barely touched by all drivers now? Lack of compliance. Aero center of pressure (CoP) and CG location have always been setup parameters for aero and mechanical grip but you want CoP to always be located behind the CG. So what happened to the RB20 from dominating the first part of the season until mid June (won 7 out of 10 races) and since then no wins plus they have the 2nd-3rd fastest car? Lando beat Max by 20+ sec today.

Absolutely. Toe definitely can damp yaw rate.

M3SQRD wrote

I don’t know if you watch F1 but Verstappin’s Red Bull in the Dutch GP FP3 would not rotate. As a result, he could not touch the throttle until way past the apex. The FIA modified a technical regulation related to the brakes during the summer break. It now clearly states no asymmetric braking (i.e., equal brake torque must be applied on the left and right) is allowed on either the front or rear axles. The rumor is Red Bull had been using asymmetric braking in slow corners since the 2022 technical regulations to help rotate the car. Due to the cars now using ground effect downforce, the cars require an extremely stiff mechanical setup (plus the FIA banned complex multiple damper setups because they couldn’t determine if they were legal which further compromised mechanical grip) to maintain really low ride heights and, consequently, they lack mechanical grip in slow corners. Red Bull found a novel way to help rotate their cars in slow corners! A few months ago the FIA supposedly told them to stop using it and Red Bull hasn’t won a race since removing asymmetrical braking from their car.

Interesting! I didn't know anything about that.

That's not what I said. Pre 22 regs, Max is literally in a league of his own compared to all his team mates especially due to rake. Where rake is literally a primary setup parameter and car concept pre 22. Albon, Gasly, and Perez, all in the bin. Talent Vs none.

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gmx wrote

That's not what I said. Pre 22 regs, Max is literally in a league of his own compared to all his team mates especially due to rake. Where rake is literally a primary setup parameter and car concept pre 22. Albon, Gasly, and Perez, all in the bin. Talent Vs none.

The minor ‘21 regulation changes favored racked designs vs. the Merc zero/minimal rake concept. RB15, RB16 and RB16B were on-the-nose designs that required a specific driving style that not all drivers prefer. It requires a different level of commitment from the driver due to the sharp front end, creating a loose rear end. Max and Lewis prefer this type of setup. Max has dominated his teammates but Albon is far from having no talent. RB bumped him up from TR too soon, only after six races. The pressures of being on a top team as a rookie can be overwhelming. Look at what he’s been able to do with the Williams. Albon would destroy Perez in the RB20. Max wants to keep Perez around so he doesn’t have to worry about competition for the WDC from the other side of the garage. It sounds like you believe Max is the only talented driver on the grid? Put him in a Sauber and he’d not reach Q3. F1 is 95% car, 5% driver talent. Is Max suddenly talentless after finishing > 20 sec behind Lando? Now that Max doesn’t have the dominant car on track he’s reverted back to his whiny and crashing nature. It’s only going to get worse if other teams continue to challenge for race wins.

I can tell you this through ppl close to him, Max really doesn't care who is in the other car as long as he isn't backed into a corner fighting 1v2 and compromised on strategy.

You said it yourself, if the car is on the nose, it will rotate faster. Some just can't handle it and thus far, Albon admitted that. Albon wasn't too flash in DTM GT3 whereas his teammate, Lawson was. But hey, there'll be a decent benchmark in next year's Williams. So we will see. Max has at least dabbled in other formulas/GTs and been up there immediately during tests. F1 alone is a poor indicator of versatility (obviously) & talent as you said predominately due to the car dictating pace.

Hi guys, didnt want to start a new thread so I will post here. I recently installed a set of ohlins dedicated on my e92 m3. I was curious to see what rebound settings you guys run on the street to minimize bounciness. I was on a set of regular R&T before, and it did not bounce like the dedicated set.

It is my double duty car (street/track). Currently at (street)11/17 from stiff front to back and (track) 9/15 thanks!

I was running 13/15 and it was fine for the street. Usually run 7/11 on track but experimenting a bit.

991dc5 wrote

Hi guys, didnt want to start a new thread so I will post here. I recently installed a set of ohlins dedicated on my e92 m3. I was curious to see what rebound settings you guys run on the street to minimize bounciness. I was on a set of regular R&T before, and it did not bounce like the dedicated set.

It is my double duty car (street/track). Currently at (street)11/17 from stiff front to back and (track) 9/15 thanks!

It might not be your damper settings. I’d recommend you ask whether Ohlins runs different N2 gas pressures in the R&T standard and dedicated track setups. A higher gas pressure increases the preload on the undamped compressive spring force that acts in parallel with the main spring. The piston rod doesn’t start to move in the bump direction until this undamped compressive force is exceeded. This means it takes larger bumps before the piston rod starts to compress and, therefore, it can increase the “bouncy-ness” especially when coming to a stop.

11 “clicks” is a lot of front damping for the street. Your current setup has the front set much closer to being critically damped whereas the rear is setup very underdamped (relative to the front). This means disturbances at the front are damped out quickly and the front can become jacked down if a second bump is encountered before the suspension has been able to returns to its original equilibrium position vs. the rear that takes longer to damp out disturbances as well as better absorb bumps. This also could create the sensation that the car is bouncing because the rear does require more cycles (bounce) before the rear motion is damped out. The R&Ts are rebound biased which makes things worse with your current front and rear damper settings (compression damping changes by a fixed amount with rebound damper settings). I’d recommend trying to run 16-17 “clicks” on the front and leave the rear at its current setting.

Thanks for the feedback will test more with the new setup 🙏

I set the ohlins Dedicated to the recommended height settings in the manual and the ride height is very weird. The fronts are pretty high , look like a stock car. The rear is so slammed and tucking tire.

I had issues initially with the ride height.

Rear I have it set at 9mm higher than recommended. The front I have set at pretty much the top of the threads and it sits reasonably well to my eye.

Just installed a used set of Ohlins DT. Agree with everyone who said front recommended height is way off. I played around with it and bottom out the height adjustment on my fronts, still a minor wheel gap. Not sure if this is the limit or can I start adjusting pre-load?

Rears have ample amount of adjustment.

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