Mysteriously Running Rich

cjm41 wrote

BPMSport wrote

Sounds like you didn't have our software installed at all since the warm up rev limiter wasn't working. Our software only builds on the factory limiter and makes it limit further over the stock cold limiter. We were the first to introduce this feature back in 2012.

This confirms that our software wasn't even loaded to your vehicle. I would expect that you'd see an improvement with a tune on a Catless car.

For the record, we are not critiquing you. We have tuned thousands of cars in 50 countries around the world and have simply stated facts and the proper steps to take to confirm what you believe is happening, with your nose as the measuring instrument. We also included some details of our targeted fuel mixtures in idle, part throttle, and full throttle operation. Since our software doesn't appear to have been installed anyway, it's a moot point.

Hope you enjoy the car and we would still recommend following what we've previously said with stock software loaded to determine if you are running rich to begin with.

Firstly, my brother (I trust him) who is a master tech wish every cert under the sun used his $6,000 Snapon Verus Pro to tell me the car was running rich. I didn't ask him for tons of details on what all of the numbers and meters on the screen meant. It was his wife's birthday and he was on his way out he was kind enough to give me 15 mins of his time on his way out because I was concerned about my car and wanted to at least verify it was, in fact, running rich. He verified it was running rich and that my o2 sensors were not the issue pretty quick and then had to go.

I can assure you BPM verified via email that my VIN was tuned. I was even provided with what the tune consisted of.

I can assure you I was not running primary cats and was not getting a CEL and not throwing any codes.

I can also assure you I may or may not have personally verified the 155 mph speed limiter was removed.

I'm willing to bet something was amiss. It wasn't the tune itself and I never have called into question the quality of your tune or BPM's reputation. In fact, I went out of my way a number of times to state i had no reason to believe it was the BPM tune.

I'm not quite sure why you guys got so damn defensive and took to criticizing me and my shop.

Again, your input it appreciated. Anytime a trusted vendor jumps on here to provide valuable insight at no cost to anyone it benefits us all.

I would suggest maybe toning down the criticism and defensiveness a bit though.

Having a record of your VIN in our system doesn't mean the vehicle is currently tuned. It means that a tune was purchased at some point in the last ten years. We have no way of verifying this when you don't have the cable. We have no way of providing any software or diagnosis if you don't have the cable. I'm not sure why the previous owner didn't supply this to you. We are a business and the cable is not free for us, and I'm sorry charging for it and to support a non existing customer is frowned upon by you.

Your stating that the cold limiter was not functional is a clear indicator that it was not tuned. We have customers verify whether the tune is still installed or not by checking this specific behavior on cold start. If you'd like to provide your VIN we can check again on your options.

The code is the code, and the facts are the facts. We do not run any richer than stock on a Catless car. You indicated that the very function we introduced to protect cold engines was not functional, which is a black and white indicator that our software was not loaded. One part of the software can not be loaded while another part is there. It is either completely there or is not at all.

I am sorry that you find our replies defensive and wish you the best with your car and resolving your running rich issue.

BPMSport wrote

cjm41 wrote

BPMSport wrote

Sounds like you didn't have our software installed at all since the warm up rev limiter wasn't working. Our software only builds on the factory limiter and makes it limit further over the stock cold limiter. We were the first to introduce this feature back in 2012.

This confirms that our software wasn't even loaded to your vehicle. I would expect that you'd see an improvement with a tune on a Catless car.

For the record, we are not critiquing you. We have tuned thousands of cars in 50 countries around the world and have simply stated facts and the proper steps to take to confirm what you believe is happening, with your nose as the measuring instrument. We also included some details of our targeted fuel mixtures in idle, part throttle, and full throttle operation. Since our software doesn't appear to have been installed anyway, it's a moot point.

Hope you enjoy the car and we would still recommend following what we've previously said with stock software loaded to determine if you are running rich to begin with.

Firstly, my brother (I trust him) who is a master tech wish every cert under the sun used his $6,000 Snapon Verus Pro to tell me the car was running rich. I didn't ask him for tons of details on what all of the numbers and meters on the screen meant. It was his wife's birthday and he was on his way out he was kind enough to give me 15 mins of his time on his way out because I was concerned about my car and wanted to at least verify it was, in fact, running rich. He verified it was running rich and that my o2 sensors were not the issue pretty quick and then had to go.

I can assure you BPM verified via email that my VIN was tuned. I was even provided with what the tune consisted of.

I can assure you I was not running primary cats and was not getting a CEL and not throwing any codes.

I can also assure you I may or may not have personally verified the 155 mph speed limiter was removed.

I'm willing to bet something was amiss. It wasn't the tune itself and I never have called into question the quality of your tune or BPM's reputation. In fact, I went out of my way a number of times to state i had no reason to believe it was the BPM tune.

I'm not quite sure why you guys got so damn defensive and took to criticizing me and my shop.

Again, your input it appreciated. Anytime a trusted vendor jumps on here to provide valuable insight at no cost to anyone it benefits us all.

I would suggest maybe toning down the criticism and defensiveness a bit though.

Having a record of your VIN in our system doesn't mean the vehicle is currently tuned. It means that a tune was purchase at some point in the last ten years. We have no way of verifying this when you don't have the cable. We have no way of providing any software or diagnosis if you don't have the cable. I'm not sure why the previous owner didn't supply this to you. We are a business and the cable is not free for us, and I'm sorry charging for it and to support a non existing customer is frowned upon by you.

Your stating that the cold limiter was not functional is a clear indicator that it was not tuned. We have customers verify whether the tune is still installed or not by checking this specific behavior on cold start. If you'd like to provide your VIN we can check again on your options.

I am sorry that you find our replies defensive and wish you the best with your car and resolving your running rich issue.

Your responses on this thread say a lot more about BPM than they do about me.

I would NEVER expect anything for free. I'm a small business owner, myself. But $600 for a cable and to update the name in your support ticket system and/or CRM is highway robbery, pun intended.

You know damn well based on the other evidence I've provided the car was tuned.

You should probably just stop now. There is no reason for you to drag this out. I thanked you, I didn't criticize your tune, nothing.

You had nothing to gain. Now you just look like an argumentative, butt hurt liar. I don't know why. I still haven't bad mouthed you, at all. You could have simply just not replied, at all. Nothing lost. Nothing gained. Now you look like a bit of a prick in front of a portion of your potential client base. You've already indicated you're successful, I'd imagine deservedly so, I don't know why having me choose another tuner would upset you that much that you'd hang out here internet arguing with a stranger from your business account on a Sunday night.

What purpose could this possibly serve?

Sent you a PM with regard to the quote you received... That is certainly not what you should have been quoted.

You seem very angry and aggressive. We do not know "damn well" whether a car is tuned or not, that was purchased second hand, with no cable or software. There is no way for us to check in this scenario.

You stated yourself that the cold start protection was not functioning, and this is clear indication that the car did not have our software loaded. I explained that this is one of the first ways we ask customers to determine if it's tuned. We never doubted that the software was loaded until you made this statement, which is the most apparent indicator.

You can make personal attacks but they are unwarranted. There is nothing we are being untruthful about, again this is black or white.. If the cold start rev limit protection was selected with the software spec, and the RPM limiter is not 4,500 when the car is dead cold, then the software was NOT currently installed.

Please check your PM with reference to the quote you received so we can make sure that doesn't happen again.

- I've not made a personal attack.

- I've not been aggressive.

- Liar may have been the wrong word. But there are other indicators the car was tuned, which were conveniently ignored in your reply.

- This thread was NEVER even about your tune, I'm not quite sure why you're still here shitting on my thread.

- I will be on the lookout for a PM. Haven't received yet.

- whether or not I receive your PM, I wish you the best of luck. Some people just don't click and aren't meant to do business together. No sweat.

Thanks again for your contributions, positive and negative, Mike.

Saying that we look like a butt hurt liar for stating facts seems a bit aggressive, perhaps I am off beat here.

The tune isn't the issue, I'm not trying to "shit" on your thread but provide the best way to determine, track down, and solve your issue.

I will resend the PM again, thank you.

So how 'bout them Cowboys? Hell of a year, amirite?

Alright. I PM'd BPMsport back. I misspoke, I was quoted $100 less than I'd previously stated.

Again- my intent wasn't to shit-talk BPM in anyway. I'm confident his tune is not the direct reason for any of my problems.

We'll clear up our disconnect via PM (which we should have done from the start).

I'll report back with my running rich findings, although I've been sitting in a parking lot with my car running and the windows down for 20 minutes internet arguing from my phone and the car smells very little.

M3 post is the only forum where this kind of back and forth could take place


I've never seen this fly on any other forum.

Glad y'all figured it out

StripclubDJ wrote

M3 post is the only forum where this kind of back and forth could take place


I've never seen this fly on any other forum.

Shoulda seen e60.net circa 2009-2010. Haha

I have started an Alpine tune group buy. This is wholly for the benefit of the members of this forum. The benefit is getting as many HP per dollar as possible. This was true about car nodding in the 70's and it is true today.

BOOF-M3 wrote

This may be the perfect time for me to run an Alpine tune group buy hmmm.

Great tune at a great price. Nothing like word of mouth marketing to boost business.

randrews15 wrote

BOOF-M3 wrote

This may be the perfect time for me to run an Alpine tune group buy hmmm.

Great tune at a great price. Nothing like word of mouth marketing to boost business.

Putting your theory to the test right now lols.

So glad I have 🐱🐱🐱🐱

cjm41 wrote

Alright. I PM'd BPMsport back. I misspoke, I was quoted $100 less than I'd previously stated.

Again- my intent wasn't to shit-talk BPM in anyway. I'm confident his tune is not the direct reason for any of my problems.

We'll clear up our disconnect via PM (which we should have done from the start).

I'll report back with my running rich findings, although I've been sitting in a parking lot with my car running and the windows down for 20 minutes internet arguing from my phone and the car smells very little.

Got your PM, appreciate you sending, even that is not the correct price. I will track this down and see where the disconnect was and circle back to you on PM. We hired some new staff recently and perhaps there was a mixup here.

Keep in mind that when changing versions the adaptations are reset completely, so there might have been a learned behavior from before that could have been affecting fuel trims.

I checked the previous owner's order from 2014 and the option to decrease the redline at startup was one of the selected options.

Always diagnose issues like this with bone stock software. If it smells when bone stock and then doesn't with the tune, that is a problem as well. Stock should always be used as a baseline for isolating issues and working out problems. Appreciate it

cjm41 wrote

Firstly, my brother (I trust him) who is a master tech with every cert under the sun used his $6,000 Snapon Verus Pro to tell me the car was running rich. I didn't ask him for tons of details on what all of the numbers and meters on the screen meant. It was his wife's birthday and he was on his way out he was kind enough to give me 15 mins of his time on his way out because I was concerned about my car and wanted to at least verify it was, in fact, running rich. He verified it was running rich and that my o2 sensors were not the issue pretty quick and then had to go.

I can assure you BPM verified via email that my VIN was tuned. I was even provided with what the tune consisted of.

I can assure you I was not running primary cats and was not getting a CEL and not throwing any codes.

I can also assure you I may or may not have personally verified the 155 mph speed limiter was removed.

I'm willing to bet something was amiss. It wasn't the tune itself and I never have called into question the quality of your tune or BPM's reputation. In fact, I went out of my way a number of times to state i had no reason to believe it was the BPM tune.

I'm not quite sure why you guys got so damn defensive and took to criticizing me and my shop.

Again, your input it appreciated. Anytime a trusted vendor jumps on here to provide valuable insight at no cost to anyone it benefits us all.

I would suggest maybe toning down the criticism and defensiveness a bit though.

There is no way to check a Bosch o2 sensor. The only sensors you can gas flow check are the ntk sensors (Honda uses them). So if they both were reading similar one can assume they are operating pretty good but the only way to verify is to check for fuel trims to be a really big positive number. Then replacing the sensors. No devices will tell you a bosch sensor is technically good.

kawasaki00 wrote

There is no way to check a Bosch o2 sensor. The only sensors you can gas flow check are the ntk sensors (Honda uses them). So if they both were reading similar one can assume they are operating pretty good but the only way to verify is to check for fuel trims to be a really big positive number. Then replacing the sensors. No devices will tell you a bosch sensor is technically good.

Absolutely correct, I just figured I'd drop it as what I was saying wasn't being received, plus with the rev limit protection not there, it was a clear indicator that something was flashed between 2014 when the original purchaser got the software and now. A Snap on Versus is basically a glorified handheld OBD scanner. It's nothing like the factory software which has test plans and other diagnosis pathways. There is no way to accurately perform a proper diagnosis without an external testing device. You can't use an oxygen sensor to diagnose itself unless it's something such as a failed heating element or short.

BPMSport wrote

kawasaki00 wrote

There is no way to check a Bosch o2 sensor. The only sensors you can gas flow check are the ntk sensors (Honda uses them). So if they both were reading similar one can assume they are operating pretty good but the only way to verify is to check for fuel trims to be a really big positive number. Then replacing the sensors. No devices will tell you a bosch sensor is technically good.

Absolutely correct, I just figured I'd drop it as what I was saying wasn't being received, plus with the rev limit protection not there, it was a clear indicator that something was flashed between 2014 when the original purchaser got the software and now. A Snap on Versus is basically a glorified handheld OBD scanner. It's nothing like the factory software which has test plans and other diagnosis pathways. There is no way to accurately perform a proper diagnosis without an external testing device. You can't use an oxygen sensor to diagnose itself unless it's something such as a failed heating element or short.

The car had a BPM tune. Keep arguing about it. Again- I didn't say it was, specifically the tune's fault.

I did a little research on BPM last night. You're a real treat to the forums you haven't been banned from. I know you'll keep coming back and arguing, it's sort of your modus operandi. Not sure why you won't just leave my thread alone and move on.

cjm41 wrote

I did a little research on BPM last night. You're a real treat to the forums you haven't been banned from. I know you'll keep coming back and arguing, it's sort of your modus operandi. Not sure why you won't just leave my thread alone and move on.

Yet that is exactly what you are doing.
You are pretty new here and there are some very smart cats on this forum. You have to know what you are talking about if you want to argue.
I am not picking a fight with you, but quite a few things don't add up.

kawasaki00 wrote

cjm41 wrote

I did a little research on BPM last night. You're a real treat to the forums you haven't been banned from. I know you'll keep coming back and arguing, it's sort of your modus operandi. Not sure why you won't just leave my thread alone and move on.

Yet that is exactly what you are doing.
You are pretty new here and there are some very smart cats on this forum. You have to know what you are talking about if you want to argue.
I am not picking a fight with you, but quite a few things don't add up.

I've not argued with anyone or told you or anyone they were wrong, at all, about anything, with the exception that the car had a tune.

The only thing I noticed was that the car didn't have cold start protection. However, i did not verify this. My tach didn't show a redline of 4500 rpm. Nor does it now with the Alpine tune. I have not attempted to rev my engine during cold start, so I have not verified that cold start protection is or isn't there. What I am willing to bet is that something is wrong with my gauge.

The fact that I did verify no speed limiter, no CEL or codes with no primary cats, much tighter steering/servo in M mode, and me verifying with the previous owner it was, in fact, tuned by BPM, seems like enough to say it was tuned by BPM.

Here's the thing- I never said it was any fault of the tune. Just saying it was tuned. That is THE ONLY thing I've argued. The only.

I, also, appreciate you sharing your wisdom here, I don't claim to know everything, if I did I'd not have started this thread.

I'm simply saying "yo- it was tuned, and I'm not saying it was the tune anyway, so leave me and this damn thread alone" THAT IS ALL.

Alternatively, you can provide me with some insight into how all other indicators of the tune being on the car (keeping in mind i actually haven't verified cold start protection but the tach isn't showing it). That would be helpful, rather than telling me how new I am here and that I should listen, or whatever. Read back through the thread, I've done that. I've been receptive, and thankful. I've only argued with BPM about one damn thing, which he's wrong about. The car had a tune.

Edit:

I've attached a screenshot of a video from a few months ago, when it had the BPM tune (it's only six seconds, so I couldn't upload to YouTube) of the car running during cold start. You can see the yellow is only at about 6100/6200 RPM, which lead me to believe it may not have had the advertised 4500 rpm cold start protection from BPM, however, it's still showing the same thing for the Alpine tune, so maybe there is something wrong with the gauge.

On first start with the new tune that warning and redline went way down, to like 3500 or 4500. It's not done it again.

This is the only reason i thought it suddenly had CS protection but didn't previously.

your car is actually running lean and the car is compensating by throwing more fuel at it to try to get it back to normal range. lean means leaks.

seriously, check your header to xpipe for leaks. also, check your pre-cat o2 sensor bungs - sometimes a slightly longer one can have the sensor read incorrectly.

what you should do is run live data (i used a $30 obd scan tool from amazon) and check out your o2s1 voltage as well as your short term and long term fuel trims.

when you swapped xpipes, did you put in a new donut gasket?

i went through this for two months lol