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      06-10-2014, 02:35 PM   #23
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      06-10-2014, 03:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x5love View Post
BMW has always sat comfortably in that price range. Small, sporty daily drivers for the middle class, that's what BMW has always excelled at. Look at the 2002, the legendary 2002. It wasn't a Merc or Rolls competitor, it sat at the other end of the spectrum with great design, build and engineering.

People think BMW is diluting itself with the 2 series and 328 when really that's what they've been about from the start.

Mercedes is the one that's traveled downstream over the years. They began closer to a Rolls competitor, and decades later, we got all the way down to the A, B and C classes.
I didn't say they were diluting themselves by producing a 2 series and a 328, 325, etc, I just said I don't think BMW belongs in the mid-low $20k base price range for a car... That's just my opinion, and I completely agree with you in regards to the 2002. Just recently I got to drive one for the first time and it really took my passion for BMWs to another level still... It's a great car, and one day I'd love to own a 2002 Turbo. My point is that when you start making cheap cars, which BMW has yet to do, you have to start cutting corners in some way, maybe with quality, materials or levels of engineering, and like I said BMW has yet to do that, but I fear that if they go any lower than they are at the moment, it might happen. Most people that I know look at a BMW with envy, as a nice, well-engineered, high-quality vehicle, and rightly so, they are very special cars. But if you go down the price spectrum and make a car that competes in the same price category of a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord, do you think people will feel the same way about them? I don't, and that's all I'm trying to say. They're fine doing what they are right now.
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      06-10-2014, 03:52 PM   #25
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Hopefully there will be Z7 "GT3 RS" and "Turbo S" models to really take the fight to the 100k plus territory.

People keep mentioning a new new 2016 super car a la M1and I sincerely hope they are right... but we've seen absolutely zilch in the way of evidence of this. I fear it's just a myth.
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      06-10-2014, 04:31 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
That is just a render. And that render has been out YEARS before the FT-1 and the new NSX design.

So Toyota and Honda were inspired by a rendered BMW?
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      06-10-2014, 04:32 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mikey e90 View Post
Where can I find the render of the red car in the home page link to this thread? It looks awesome... And definitely background wallpaper worthy.

Mike
There is front shot, rear shot and side shot. Google BMW M1 render or concept or BMW M1 V10 render. I did this years ago. Or look on DeviantArt.
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      06-10-2014, 05:03 PM   #28
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Can they put a 6 speed manual too please
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      06-10-2014, 05:05 PM   #29
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Can they put a 6 speed manual too please
DCT only, N55 derived powerplant + electric motors. Is my guess. Similar powertrain setup as the P1 with "torque fill".
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      06-10-2014, 05:18 PM   #30
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Great idea and concept but i'm not sure that BMW has much to benefit from collaborating with Toyota on a car like this.

Engine: Inline-6- most likely BMW's own as Toyota stopped building I-6's more than a decade ago. Unless they are deciding to stick a V6 in there for the purposes of compactness/space-efficiency then maybe that's where Toyota comes in, but it isn't a deal breaker for a car like this. Electric motor- BMW has already shown its capabilities through its "i" cars.
Chassis/Layout: TBD but BMW manufactures carbon fiber in house, and from the looks of the i8 and its recent portfolio, BMW has no problem creating an agile & capable chassis, be it MR or FR.
Transmission: DCT- nothing new here & although Toyota does make its own transmissions (via Aisin), BMW has been using Getrag DCTs and ZF 8ATs quite successfully in its recent lineup so unless Aisin/Toyota has something more to offer here, i don't see where BMW can benefit.
Brakes: Again, not rocket science here
Active Aero: Here is probably the only thing that might benefit from a collaboration. Although i'm still skeptical about its implementation post-concept but it is possible as the trend towards MPG & efficiency becomes increasingly defined. Perhaps Toyota knows something BMW doesn't and vice versa here


From the looks of the potential specs, BMW can easily just drop an inline-6 into a chassis based on the i8 platform and have the wanted results sans active aero. So at this point, i'm really questioning what Toyota has to bring to the table.
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      06-10-2014, 05:28 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
There is front shot, rear shot and side shot. Google BMW M1 render or concept or BMW M1 V10 render. I did this years ago. Or look on DeviantArt.
I believe the render was done by Idries Noah. He has a website at Idi3d with more photos including this one. It is easy to find with google.
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      06-10-2014, 05:36 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeman
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Originally Posted by dd1981 View Post
Can we get 500hp @ 2800lbs ?
Really doubt they would be able to achieve 2800 lbs if it's going to be a plug in hybrid. All the extra hardware means a lot of extra weight.
Yeah...stupid batteries well im Dreaming on lol

I just want agile light weight cars...soooo tired of pig brutes with gobs of hp thrown at them to compensate for the lbs.

I just want like a 2900lb car with 390-400hp!! Come on Bmw you can do it!
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      06-10-2014, 06:46 PM   #33
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6cyl plug in ?! - thank you but no thank you -.-
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      06-10-2014, 07:00 PM   #34
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No market for a Z4M, but there's one for a $130k Z hybrid? Current Z4 is enough of a pig already, good luck moving a hybrid hunk of shit "sports car" for twice the price.

Never gonna happen anyway. FWD Z GT S drive 20is will come out before something like this.
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      06-10-2014, 08:27 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
So Toyota and Honda were inspired by a rendered BMW?
And how did you come up with that logic? Where did you pull that out of?
Did you read what I responded to?
Quote:
nice. looks too similar to an NSX. its like a cross between the new NSX and the FT-1 Concept
This is an old render, like from 2008-09. You can look at the design cues and see the 2008 M1 Homage concept in it and use of BMW wheels designs from the Bangle era. Here is a June 19, 2009 link with the render in different angles
http://www.ridelust.com/bmw-m-concep...l-to-audis-r8/

The NSX Concept came out in 2012.
Apparently, Wingman was stating that he could see FT-1 and NSX in it, when this render is years before.

And the FT-1 has about zero designs cues in common with this car, the only thing it has in common is red paint. I don't even see the NSX in the render. Why? Because the new NSX didn't exist, the front engined one, which ended up as the HSV-010 GT, existed.
It looks like a cleaned up M1 Homage with quad exhausts...in fact it looks better than the M1 Homage.

Last edited by IS3andME; 06-10-2014 at 08:35 PM.
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      06-10-2014, 10:49 PM   #36
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Yeah and they will put run flats on it
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      06-11-2014, 12:04 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
The title of this story alone is the stuff of legend, but this may be more then a far off dream. Car Magazine's Georg Kacher reveals some exciting new rumors in a new article today, laying out the so-called "Silk Road 2" project. The project title is a nod to the fact that this car will be a second vehicle to be developed in concert with Toyota.

While we have yet to find out the end result of the first BMW/Toyota collaborative project, this second car sounds downright awesome.

Lets run down the raw facts of what Georg Kacher says has been revealed to Car Magazine:
Name: BMW Z7 and Lexus ZC/ZR
Price: 90,000 Euro ($121,900)

Layout: Mid-Engine
Engine: 6-Cylinder Plug In Hybrid (3.0L)
Power: 400-500HP
Transmission: 7-Speed DCT
Brakes: Carbon Composite
Aerodynamics: Active Aerodynamics

Now to be sure, at this stage, it would be a far stretch to say that this is anything more then a rumor and certainly the finer details of such a car *if it was being developed* would be a closely guarded secret. BUT, the thought of a 911 fighting mid-engine BMW is exciting enough for us to give this rumor a big thumbs up in the hopes that it becomes reality And with Mercedes-Benz soon to release their AMG GT and Audi soon to release their second R8, it wouldn't seem that bad of an idea for BMW to pursue.

**Note the image posted is just an example of a mid-engine BMW concept, nothing based in reality!

Source: Car Magazine
Image Source: Idries Noah
Mark, can you post the picture that is on the front page on the first post.

Thx !
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      06-11-2014, 04:31 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law
Great idea and concept but i'm not sure that BMW has much to benefit from collaborating with Toyota on a car like this.

Engine: Inline-6- most likely BMW's own as Toyota stopped building I-6's more than a decade ago. Unless they are deciding to stick a V6 in there for the purposes of compactness/space-efficiency then maybe that's where Toyota comes in, but it isn't a deal breaker for a car like this. Electric motor- BMW has already shown its capabilities through its "i" cars.
Chassis/Layout: TBD but BMW manufactures carbon fiber in house, and from the looks of the i8 and its recent portfolio, BMW has no problem creating an agile & capable chassis, be it MR or FR.
Transmission: DCT- nothing new here & although Toyota does make its own transmissions (via Aisin), BMW has been using Getrag DCTs and ZF 8ATs quite successfully in its recent lineup so unless Aisin/Toyota has something more to offer here, i don't see where BMW can benefit.
Brakes: Again, not rocket science here
Active Aero: Here is probably the only thing that might benefit from a collaboration. Although i'm still skeptical about its implementation post-concept but it is possible as the trend towards MPG & efficiency becomes increasingly defined. Perhaps Toyota knows something BMW doesn't and vice versa here


From the looks of the potential specs, BMW can easily just drop an inline-6 into a chassis based on the i8 platform and have the wanted results sans active aero. So at this point, i'm really questioning what Toyota has to bring to the table.
Good point - goes back to the "why isn't there an Mi8 question" to which the answer was i and M are different ends of the spectrum/philosophy/alphabet blah.

Seems daft that a bespoke carbon chassis developed by BMW isn't utilised further, maybe the chassis developed cannot handle 600 plus BHP?
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      06-11-2014, 07:20 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blubaron79
The M1?
Not powerful enough to be M1, and too expensive to 'compete' with 911s, unless it is very light weight.

However I think it makes more sense for BMW to make an M100 for their 100th year anniversary and then water it down to this.
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      06-11-2014, 07:40 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clbmw
Hopefully there will be Z7 "GT3 RS" and "Turbo S" models to really take the fight to the 100k plus territory.

People keep mentioning a new new 2016 super car a la M1and I sincerely hope they are right... but we've seen absolutely zilch in the way of evidence of this. I fear it's just a myth.
A nicely optioned Z4 is already in the 70K range, if it's got a Z7 badge I would say the starting MSRP for the base on will be in high 80s...a performance version of it would be in M6/GC's territory.
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      06-11-2014, 08:17 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Great idea and concept but i'm not sure that BMW has much to benefit from collaborating with Toyota on a car like this.

Engine: Inline-6- most likely BMW's own as Toyota stopped building I-6's more than a decade ago. Unless they are deciding to stick a V6 in there for the purposes of compactness/space-efficiency then maybe that's where Toyota comes in, but it isn't a deal breaker for a car like this. Electric motor- BMW has already shown its capabilities through its "i" cars.
Chassis/Layout: TBD but BMW manufactures carbon fiber in house, and from the looks of the i8 and its recent portfolio, BMW has no problem creating an agile & capable chassis, be it MR or FR.
Transmission: DCT- nothing new here & although Toyota does make its own transmissions (via Aisin), BMW has been using Getrag DCTs and ZF 8ATs quite successfully in its recent lineup so unless Aisin/Toyota has something more to offer here, i don't see where BMW can benefit.
Brakes: Again, not rocket science here
Active Aero: Here is probably the only thing that might benefit from a collaboration. Although i'm still skeptical about its implementation post-concept but it is possible as the trend towards MPG & efficiency becomes increasingly defined. Perhaps Toyota knows something BMW doesn't and vice versa here


From the looks of the potential specs, BMW can easily just drop an inline-6 into a chassis based on the i8 platform and have the wanted results sans active aero. So at this point, i'm really questioning what Toyota has to bring to the table.
Toyota could lend a hand with regards to hybrid powertrains, also they have a lot more capital to throw into R&D than BMW does. Plus I'm sure they picked up a thing or two in developing the LF-A.
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      06-11-2014, 08:31 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dd1981 View Post
Can we get 500hp @ 2800lbs ?
NO,, if BMW want something to impress and to be elite again, they have to compete against LaFerrari/P1/918

so no less than 800hp
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      06-11-2014, 11:12 AM   #43
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Perhaps it's true, but for which market?
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      06-11-2014, 11:17 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash83
Quote:
Originally Posted by dd1981 View Post
Can we get 500hp @ 2800lbs ?
NO,, if BMW want something to impress and to be elite again, they have to compete against LaFerrari/P1/918

so no less than 800hp
A bit of a leap! I wish you were right

They wouldn't have the bottle to even attempt something that good. As much as BMW is a luxury brand it's also common, there's nothing exclusive about them and I reckon it'd be too much of a gamble to even try a car in that bracket. We've seen nothing performance from BMW other than M designed versions of standard cars (excepting the i8 sort of) for a very long time
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