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      06-01-2014, 07:38 AM   #1
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What to do, to build an S65?

Ive tried reading through countless threads and putting all the information together, and its great stuff to read, but not easily accessible and good for quick reference.

If we could stay on topic, eliminate bias, and offer reasonable solutions to what I would like to accomplish, that would be great.

The basics:

4.0L S65 built for mild boost increase/ mildly increased HP (over stock motor limits)/maximum reliability ( 12PSI ~650rwhp )

The constraints: $10,000 for motor/fuel system parts ONLY (disregard cost of labor, method of boost, transmission, gauges, etc)

1. CR. how low do we go? 11.5, 10.5, 9.5? Personally prefer to stay closer to stock as it should be easier to hit target goals without too much compromise.

2. Heads. Seems to breathe well enough already, worth touching?

3. Cams. I dont see why as it already revs high enough, but any thoughts?

4. Crank. Who what and why

5. Rods. ^

6. Pistons. ^

7. Valves. ^

8. Springs. ^

9. Bearings. ^

10. Gasket. ^

11. Studs/bolts/ ancillary items ^

12.Fuel system components. All?



It would be great if when responding, we knew exactly who currently offers the components, the specs in which they are preferred, and price.

This should make it easy for everyone to know what is involved.

Last edited by Verify; 06-01-2014 at 07:46 AM.
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      06-01-2014, 09:40 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpico View Post
Ive tried reading through countless threads and putting all the information together, and its great stuff to read, but not easily accessible and good for quick reference.

If we could stay on topic, eliminate bias, and offer reasonable solutions to what I would like to accomplish, that would be great.

The basics:

4.0L S65 built for mild boost increase/ mildly increased HP (over stock motor limits)/maximum reliability ( 12PSI ~650rwhp )

The constraints: $10,000 for motor/fuel system parts ONLY (disregard cost of labor, method of boost, transmission, gauges, etc)

1. CR. how low do we go? 11.5, 10.5, 9.5? Personally prefer to stay closer to stock as it should be easier to hit target goals without too much compromise.
If you keep the CR high, then you will not hit your target goal of 12 PSI and 650 whp. Drew runs 10.0:1 CR and on 12 PSI and hit 630 whp in this dyno.
http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=498

Quote:
2. Heads. Seems to breathe well enough already, worth touching?
I'm mixed on this. I haven't yet seen any results that would say yes.

Quote:
3. Cams. I dont see why as it already revs high enough, but any thoughts?
There are no cams available for FI S65. I have a cam grind for this, but I never put it into cams. If you do, expect it to be ~$4000.

Quote:
4. Crank. Who what and why
Custom cranks will cost ~ $4500.

Quote:
5. Rods. ^
Carrillo Rods: ~$2200. Impossible to quote specs because it will depend on your application. You need to know what you're doing in the crank and pistons and all these parts need to be spec'd together.

Quote:
6. Pistons. ^
Custom Mahle pistons: $2600 (Mahle, maker of OEM pistons). You can order these directly through Mahle. But there's a lot of technical specs that may be required if you're ordering custom pistons. Same comment as above. Need to be spec'd together with rods and crank.

Quote:
7. Valves. ^
I'm not aware of any aftermarket valves. You can't fit bigger ones in the head anyways. I discussed unshrouding the valves in another thread. IMO it's more scam than anything.

Quote:
8. Springs. ^
There's great aftermarket valve springs availble. ~ $450. Get these through Auto Talent, Dinan, or RD Sport.

Quote:
9. Bearings. ^
~ $330 (OEM)

Quote:
10. Gasket. ^
Full gasket sets with head gaskets: ~ $1400 (OEM)

Quote:
11. Studs/bolts/ ancillary items ^
Was included in cost of gaskets above.

Quote:
12.Fuel system components. All?
To go 650 whp, you will need fuel system modifications. Not my area of expertise.

Quote:
It would be great if when responding, we knew exactly who currently offers the components, the specs in which they are preferred, and price.

This should make it easy for everyone to know what is involved.
These are all retail prices. I'm sure when ordering you can get better prices if you have good contacts.

I've helped at least five people build engines by spec'ing the parts for custom engine builds and helping them order. I'm not a business and I only do this to help people out. If you need help, let me know.

Last edited by regular guy; 06-01-2014 at 09:48 AM.
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      06-01-2014, 10:59 AM   #3
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The bare essentials:
Custom Mahle pistons: $2600
Carrillo Rods: ~$2200
OEM Bearings: $330
Full gasket sets with head gaskets: ~ $1400 (OEM)
Valve Springs: $450.

Total: ~7000 parts only.

Add ~ $2k for fuel system.
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      06-01-2014, 10:59 AM   #4
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Turn-key w/ SC?
Gintani....
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      06-01-2014, 02:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
If you keep the CR high, then you will not hit your target goal of 12 PSI and 650 whp. Drew runs 10.0:1 CR and on 12 PSI and hit 630 whp in this dyno.
http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=498

Good stuff with that post.

as for CR, why would the goals not be attainable? the higher CR the more power it will make. or are you suggesting that its not low enough to be safe on 93 octane?

I should also note, im not so much worried about psi, as the HP is the intended result, be it 10 or 20psi (exaggeration)

You also say OEM bearings, why not the WPC ones?

Last edited by Verify; 06-01-2014 at 02:58 PM.
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      06-01-2014, 03:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpico View Post
Good stuff with that post.

as for CR, why would the goals not be attainable? the higher CR the more power it will make. or are you suggesting that its not low enough to be safe on 93 octane?

I should also note, im not so much worried about psi, as the HP is the intended result, be it 10 or 20psi (exaggeration)

You also say OEM bearings, why not the WPC ones?
High compression ratio and high boost don't go together very well. You've got a vicious cycle of increased cylinder pressure and higher exhaust gas temps that are generated from the higher boost. You've also got much less leeway for spark advance, which means you are on the hairy edge of detonation which can damage your engine. The most you can see with high compression is about 9 PSI boost and 600 whp. After that, you need to lower the compression ratio -- which gives you much more freedom to increase boost, increase power, run cooler EGT's and safer timing. BTW, this isn't my area of expertise, so I may have some of the finer things a little off, but the jist of it should be pretty good.

WPC bearings are OEM bearings + the WPC treatment. I don't know the price of the treatment, but I think it's about an extra $130-$140 for the full set of bearings. I would recommend it, but didn't know the prices exactly. I suggest to contact Auto Talent for pricing as they handle a lot of WPC treated bearings.
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      06-01-2014, 07:57 PM   #7
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Sending OE bearings to WPC costs $73 plus shipping to them (dealing directly with them).
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      06-01-2014, 08:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
The bare essentials:
Custom Mahle pistons: $2600
Carrillo Rods: ~$2200
OEM Bearings: $330
Full gasket sets with head gaskets: ~ $1400 (OEM)
Valve Springs: $450.

Total: ~7000 parts only.

Add ~ $2k for fuel system.
Do this^ with LC pistons and TT that thing! im guessing it will cost around 4k to 5k more then a SC kit, But Way Way better!
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      06-02-2014, 02:36 AM   #9
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ok, im compiling part #s and current prices now to make this easier. ill probably send to to RG to put into a better layout (i like his style)


I first would like to know more about CR from others that are well versed. i still think 10.5 is too low for staying 4.0 L but would like more input.


Next we need to know what is needed for the fuel system.
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      06-02-2014, 07:16 AM   #10
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I run a Gintani motor, high compression (stock) stroker with their s/c kit at 7.5psi

Low end torque is insane
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      06-02-2014, 09:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpico View Post
ok, im compiling part #s and current prices now to make this easier. ill probably send to to RG to put into a better layout (i like his style)


I first would like to know more about CR from others that are well versed. i still think 10.5 is too low for staying 4.0 L but would like more input.


Next we need to know what is needed for the fuel system.
I already have the part numbers. I don't have prices in my list because it fluxuates too much from dealer to dealer (believe it or not). Also you might want to double check these quantities. Somebody who built an engine from this list told me that some of the parts come multiples per purchase and means my quantities are off. So please double check and I will fix my list.

QTY
BMW Part#
Description
8
11 24 7 841 703
Rod bearing shell blue (upper)
8
11 24 7 841 702
Rod bearing shell red (lower)
4
11 24 7 841 610
Main bearing shell green (upper) (color and part number will depend on measured clearance)
4
11 24 7 841 606
Main bearing shell green (lower) (color and part number will depend on measured clearance)
1
11 24 7 841 618
Main guide bearing shell green (upper)
1
11 24 7 841 614
Main guide bearing shell green (lower)
4
11 62 7 841 114
Exhaust manifold gasket
4
11 62 7 841 115
Exhaust manifold gasket
2
11 72 7 838 389
Air valve gasket
8
11 12 7 835 170
Spark plug pipe (optional)
2
11 11 7 506 546
Injection valve for bed plate sealant
1
83 19 7 515 683
Primer Loctite 171000
1
83 19 0 439 030
Liquid sealant Loctite 193140
1
11 12 7 838 271
Valve cover gasket
1
11 12 7 838 272
Valve cover gasket
20
11 12 7 838 831
Head bolt
4
11 53 7 835 497
O-Ring
2
11 11 1 734 667
Oil check valve
1
11 42 7 837 997
Oil Filter
1
11 11 0 429 839
Engine block gasket set
4
11 23 7 838 588
Engine dampener TORX bolt
8
13 54 7 838 297
Throttle body gasking ring
2
11 53 7 835 651
Water hose gasket
2
11 53 7 838 211
Thermostat housing gasket
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      06-02-2014, 09:17 AM   #12
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This is a great thread, thanks for putting this together.

I am definitely considering building my engine, in preparation for either the Harrop SC or the Gintani TT.

Since I have never built an engine before, a thread like this is great for those to learn what is required, and how much it will cost so they can start saving.

What about sleeves?

Subscribed!
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      06-02-2014, 06:35 PM   #13
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VAC Has Head and Main studs for both itll run yah $700
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      06-02-2014, 06:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpico View Post
I first would like to know more about CR from others that are well versed. i still think 10.5 is too low for staying 4.0 L but would like more input.
.
Compression means little when you can control the boost. Meaning if you cut a point off the compression it is not going to run much different because you can control the timing and boost. If you have too much compression you will hit a wall where you just cant run any more boost no matter how much timing you retard. It is a bad idea to retard timing anyway because it makes the cylinder less efficient and increases heat on the head of the exhaust valve.
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      06-02-2014, 08:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibmike View Post
VAC Has Head and Main studs for both itll run yah $700
Can you please post some links? I just went to the VAC site and it shows $139 for rod bolts and $179 for head studs. That sounds way too low to me. So links to what you saw would help sort this out.

The ARP2000 material looks like a really good material. Had this been available when i was building my engine, I would have used this instead of making our own. Kawasaki, any comments on the ARP2000 material?
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      06-02-2014, 08:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
Can you please post some links? I just went to the VAC site and it shows $139 for rod bolts and $179 for head studs. That sounds way too low to me. So links to what you saw would help sort this out.

The ARP2000 material looks like a really good material. Had this been available when i was building my engine, I would have used this instead of making our own. Kawasaki, any comments on the ARP2000 material?
They are a good upgrade, that is really their "go-to" bolt. It is better than the 8740 material they use for some other standard rods. The CA 625 bolts provide around 20% more clamp though.
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      06-02-2014, 08:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
Can you please post some links? I just went to the VAC site and it shows $139 for rod bolts and $179 for head studs. That sounds way too low to me. So links to what you saw would help sort this out.

The ARP2000 material looks like a really good material. Had this been available when i was building my engine, I would have used this instead of making our own. Kawasaki, any comments on the ARP2000 material?

You need to click on the product that you wish to look at. There you will see that the low prices are not for an S65, but an M10, S14, etc. Once you click "S65" the proper price will appear.
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      06-02-2014, 09:21 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schnell325 View Post
You need to click on the product that you wish to look at. There you will see that the low prices are not for an S65, but an M10, S14, etc. Once you click "S65" the proper price will appear.
Got it. Did you use these on your build?
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      06-02-2014, 09:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
They are a good upgrade, that is really their "go-to" bolt. It is better than the 8740 material they use for some other standard rods. The CA 625 bolts provide around 20% more clamp though.
I know we mentioned this before and I forgot your answer. I was dissuaded from using the 625 material because of the warnings against contact with moisture. If you don't mind, could you mention your thoughts on that again?

Thx.
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      06-03-2014, 06:43 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
I know we mentioned this before and I forgot your answer. I was dissuaded from using the 625 material because of the warnings against contact with moisture. If you don't mind, could you mention your thoughts on that again?

Thx.
Maybe a problem in an alcohol engone but I wouldnt worry about that in a gas engine. Many racers use them. We do not run them for rod bolts but have many fasteners on the engine that are subject to water and fluids and have never had a problem. The big reason most do not run them is the cost. $750+- just for the bolts. The clamp load is higher also so the rod needs to be reworked for the new bolt. Not a good idea just to put the bolts in and run with it.
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      06-03-2014, 09:15 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
Compression means little when you can control the boost. Meaning if you cut a point off the compression it is not going to run much different because you can control the timing and boost. If you have too much compression you will hit a wall where you just cant run any more boost no matter how much timing you retard. It is a bad idea to retard timing anyway because it makes the cylinder less efficient and increases heat on the head of the exhaust valve.
So, what are your personal beliefs of 10.0 Vs 10.5 Vs 11.0?

I have no idea what this all means and what is theory vs reality, but:

When I see ECR for stock motor limits (available s/c kits) running we will say 8psi, at the 12.0, ECR is 18.5 (correct?) and some kits run to 8.5psi=18.9 ECR (correct?)

and then using the VT3 setup of 650hp/12 psi (4.6l 10.0 cr) running 18.1 ECR

for a 4.0L, 12psi 11.0CR= 19.9ECR (too high?)

12psi 10.5:1= 19.0 (still to high?)

What i fear is that by not going to 4.6L and dropping to 10.0CR that one would lose more off boost power than desired. Not such a big deal when going to to larger CC.

Where do you think the safe middle ground would be?
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      06-03-2014, 12:49 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Got it. Did you use these on your build?
I ended up using Arrow Precision conn rods & VAC bearings. Once I sort thru all my pictures that were taken, I'll hopefully get a build thread going.
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