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      05-27-2014, 05:08 PM   #89
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Was planning to pick up an F80 M3 in a year or two also, but now with Gintani coming out with some TT kits, I'd say the chance is very slim, might go with a GT-R instead.

V8 TT with built engine is going to a game changer. For the mean time i am going to enjoy my SC'd M3 until i see what capable are those TT kits.

Good job Gintani

Last edited by M3sicko; 05-27-2014 at 05:13 PM.
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      05-27-2014, 05:11 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by M3sicko View Post
Was planning to pick up an F80 M3 in a year or two also, but now with Gintani coming out with some TT kits, I'd say the chance is very slim, might go with a GT-R instead.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you were going to get an F80, but decided to get a GT-R instead because Gintani released a TT kit for the E9x M3. Non sequitur alert!
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      05-27-2014, 05:12 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you were going to get an F80, but decided to get a GT-R instead because Gintani released a TT kit for the E9x M3. Non sequitur alert!
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      05-27-2014, 05:26 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOstJunkee View Post
They both have DCT trannies which play a HUGE role. The gintani car is running a 6MT I believe.
You'll find that some of the advantage of DCT will be lost on the TT car as the TT has a wider powerband and so the extra gear and faster shifting of the DCT won't matter quite as much.
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      05-27-2014, 05:31 PM   #93
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car looks beautiful but why that sound? Im a big fan of v8 catless sound but for some reason this m3 sounds nothing like others I heard.
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      05-27-2014, 05:48 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowerZ32 View Post
I was wondering when N54/55 idiots were going to chime in with their usual non-sense. haha. I know you think the 3.0 I6 turbo is the greatest ever. Just leave us alone and let us enjoy our 4.0 V8 TT.
Whoa! Don't group all of us N54 lovers in with this group!


I for one LOVE the idea of a TT V8. When I'm ready to move up to the M3, this will be the first order of business. I love me some boost. This thing is going to be balls to the walls!
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      05-27-2014, 06:15 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sered View Post
You'll find that some of the advantage of DCT will be lost on the TT car as the TT has a wider powerband and so the extra gear and faster shifting of the DCT won't matter quite as much.
Apparently not just the N54 fanboys but the 6MT ones too...
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      05-27-2014, 06:26 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okusa View Post
Apparently not just the N54 fan boys but the 6MT ones too...
Those of us that have a 6MT know that increased tq won't be as problematic on the tranny compared to the DCT. Nothing about being a fan boy....facts are facts.

Last edited by whats77inaname; 05-27-2014 at 11:59 PM.
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      05-27-2014, 06:37 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
Those of us that have a 6MT know that increased tq won't be as problematic on the tranny compared to the DCT. Nothing about being a fan boy....facts are fact.
Umm, no. Read the prior post. There is no mention of tq being problematic on the tranny.
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      05-27-2014, 06:44 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Bear From Jax View Post
Whoa! Don't group all of us N54 lovers in with this group!
He needed a hyphen (N54/N55-idiots) in that one lol As in, the sub-group of N55/N54 owners who are also idiots, rather than to say N55/N54 owners are idiots.
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      05-27-2014, 06:48 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okusa View Post
Umm, no. Read the prior post. There is no mention of tq being problematic on the tranny.
Mmmmmmm....might want to research some of Drew's posts about his car and his DCT. Additionally, you might want to do some checking on E90post and the guys running a lot more TQ and see what they're saying about their tranny limitations. The DCT is rated for 440 lb/ft and about 9K rpms.

Since I can't cross link, Google "M3 DCT Build Journal". You'll find an interesting read.

And finally, the 1000hp build that ESS is working on.....think it's a coincidence they chose a 6MT?

Last edited by whats77inaname; 05-27-2014 at 11:12 PM.
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      05-27-2014, 08:04 PM   #100
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very sweet setup. I imagine this will only be for the true "ballers" as the cost of it may crest a used 328i.
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      05-27-2014, 08:07 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxa121
very sweet setup. I imagine this will only be for the true "ballers" as the cost of it may crest a used 328i.
Yeah the price is going to be as much as a Hyundai I bet but wow would I love to get it.
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      05-27-2014, 10:09 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okusa View Post
Apparently not just the N54 fanboys but the 6MT ones too...
You need to re-read what I said. The DCT is going to lose some of its advantage. The M3 stock and S/C has a peaky powerband, max power isn't achieved until max rpm. With a turbo kit like this, max power is achieved earlier and it holds that power level out. The DCT allows the car to stay higher up in the powerband longer/more often.

I'm not a 6MT fanboy, I like both transmissions equally; the 6MT was better for my needs and I find it more fun to drive. If I just wanted a fast car, the M3 would not be the platform I chose.
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      05-27-2014, 10:50 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sered View Post
You need to re-read what I said. The DCT is going to lose some of its advantage. The M3 stock and S/C has a peaky powerband, max power isn't achieved until max rpm. With a turbo kit like this, max power is achieved earlier and it holds that power level out. The DCT allows the car to stay higher up in the powerband longer/more often.

I'm not a 6MT fanboy, I like both transmissions equally; the 6MT was better for my needs and I find it more fun to drive. If I just wanted a fast car, the M3 would not be the platform I chose.
I don't blame you one bit for choosing 6MT. I actually tried to find a 6MT car, but ended up with DCT.

Never the less, staying in the power band is only one advantage of DCT. The other advantage is the speed of the shifts, and AFAIK, this is the primary reason DCT shaves time off numbers like 0-60 time. Interestingly, the faster you go 0-60, the more meaningful these savings are.

Think about it like this, if it takes you 3.8s to go 0-60, saving 0.3s in shift time puts you at 3.5s. If it takes you 4.8s to go to 0-60, saving 0.3s puts you at 4.5s. The savings at the lower elapsed time is more significant, because it represents a larger portion of the total time.

EDIT: Of course, who gives a shit about 0-60 at this level? With this kind of build, you're more than likely looking at 60-130 MPH airstrip runs, in which case the DCT shift-speed advantage isn't nearly as significant.
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      05-28-2014, 12:40 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
EDIT: Of course, who gives a shit about 0-60 at this level? With this kind of build, you're more than likely looking at 60-130 MPH airstrip runs, in which case the DCT shift-speed advantage isn't nearly as significant.
These are fastest 60-130's on record for a "normal" (non nitrous, non built-motor) supercharged E9x M3:
DCT: 6.46 seconds
6MT: 7.52 seconds
Difference: 1.06 seconds

CarTest (physics based automotive simulator) gives the following results for the same car, same supercharger kit, same road conditions based on actual dyno charts. The only difference is DCT vs. 6MT.

CarTest DCT: 7.06 seconds
CarTest 6MT: 8.25 seconds
Difference: 1.19 seconds.

You can see CarTest matches real world results pretty well. Most people would consider 1+ second difference quite significant.
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      05-28-2014, 01:27 AM   #105
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Guys, we're way off topic on this thread with all the N54 vs. S65 and DCT vs. 6MT garbage.

N54: Relatively inexpensive to modify, but ceiling is lower than a blown S65
S65: Expensive to modify, but far more potential than a FBO N54.

DCT: Faster
6MT: More durable (esp. at higher torque levels)


With that settled, let's get back to talking about the Gintani TT kit.
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      05-28-2014, 01:59 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@AUTOcouture View Post
~705bhp with a 15% drivetrain loss
There is ample evidence from both rri.se, literature about losses as well as my CarTest performance simulation to support more like a 12% loss in the E9X M3, thus this is much closer to 680 crank hp. Then again who is counting 25 hp at this level... I do realize that 15% is more of an "industry standard" type of figure, but for a modern BMW (or otherwise) I think it is too large.
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      05-28-2014, 02:12 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
You're missing a hhhhuuuuuggggggeeee portion of what was posted. This car will beat a 700hp single turbo N54, if only because it has more area under the curve.
Yes the shape of the torque curve matters but ultimately in a WOT type of competition if the car never sees below X rpm (on a normal S65 that is about 6000 rpm, less for just a split second during launch) then the torque at all rpm below that rpm X are utterly inconsequential. Peak hp is always the single most important factor. Although "area under the curve" (physically meaningless - what you really mean is time averaged power or torque - not rpm averaged) is important, I wouldn't at all bet that a 100 hp peak wheel power advantage wouldn't entirely trump the "area under the curve". I'd be happy to run a simulation if you provide two examples of the torque curves in 500 rpm increments for representative examples, one at 600 peak whp and one at 700 peak whp.
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      05-28-2014, 02:14 AM   #108
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Wow congrats and incredible! Could the car be putting more than 700 bhp given the stock M3s (believe was the Gintani tuning e-flash thread) were around 300 whp?

Also, drivetrain losses seem to be around 11%-12% for hub dynos such as rototest and Dinan (dynapack). Dynos as the wheel seem to indicate ~15% loss
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      05-28-2014, 04:05 AM   #109
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completely unrelated, which rear diffuser is that?
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      05-28-2014, 07:06 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
I don't blame you one bit for choosing 6MT. I actually tried to find a 6MT car, but ended up with DCT.

Never the less, staying in the power band is only one advantage of DCT. The other advantage is the speed of the shifts, and AFAIK, this is the primary reason DCT shaves time off numbers like 0-60 time. Interestingly, the faster you go 0-60, the more meaningful these savings are.
Yes, I know that. Which is why I qualified my statement twice when I said 'some' of the advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
These are fastest 60-130's on record for a "normal" (non nitrous, non built-motor) supercharged E9x M3:
DCT: 6.46 seconds
6MT: 7.52 seconds
Difference: 1.06 seconds

CarTest (physics based automotive simulator) gives the following results for the same car, same supercharger kit, same road conditions based on actual dyno charts. The only difference is DCT vs. 6MT.

CarTest DCT: 7.06 seconds
CarTest 6MT: 8.25 seconds
Difference: 1.19 seconds.

You can see CarTest matches real world results pretty well. Most people would consider 1+ second difference quite significant.
Again, read what I said. Stock and S/C cars tend to have the same kind of powerband, peak hp at max rpm with a steady climb up to it. Cars with big V8s or turbo 6s like the N54 do not do this. They make peak power and then scale off a bit. The effect is they hold peak power for longer which increases their average power over an rpm band. The N54 rarely falls outside of its powerband from shift to shift. The S65 on the other hand, falls WAY outside of it (much moreso the 6MT though as the DCT's extra gear and shift speed helps mitigate this), especially on the 1-2 and 2-3 shift.

Your example shows stock and S/C cars which doesn't begin to address the argument I'm making. The difference between 6MT and DCT on the N54 platform isn't as huge as it is on the S65 platform. And the 5.0 generally can trap as well as a stock DCT M3 though usually a mph off or two (despite making similar peak power stock).
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