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      12-03-2007, 02:39 PM   #89
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+1 south!
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      12-03-2007, 02:43 PM   #90
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Still not agreeing. Anyway I'm not insisting on MT, just preferring it. So I'm glad that I don't have to go hunting instead of eating a BigMac according to your latest definition.
Sometime I might join the DCT III or IV club though... (in the hope of being accepted by mighty Sw, then )


Best regards, south
Come on south you have earned my respect and more importantly most folks here even if you chose an old school automatic transmission!
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      12-03-2007, 02:53 PM   #91
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Come on south you have earned my respect and more importantly most folks here even if you chose an old school automatic transmission!
OK, you're right: MT FOREVER!

Best regards, south
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      12-03-2007, 03:38 PM   #92
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Must say; the E92 M2 MT I test drove was just perfect. Much better then my own E46 M3 MT. Changing gears verry, verry easy. Also a lighter clutch in the E92.............................
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      12-03-2007, 04:47 PM   #93
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Must say; the E92 M2 MT I test drove was just perfect. Much better then my own E46 M3 MT. Changing gears verry, verry easy. Also a lighter clutch in the E92.............................
Romo, thanks for the comparison. I read that both transmissions are very similar in design.
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      12-03-2007, 09:43 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Still not agreeing. Anyway I'm not insisting on MT, just preferring it. So I'm glad that I don't have to go hunting instead of eating a BigMac according to your latest definition.
Sometime I might join the DCT III or IV club though... (in the hope of being accepted by mighty Sw, then )


Best regards, south
I'm shocked that you can't just admit that you're intentionally doing something the hard way (manual).

And then admit that it would be more fun to 'earn' your lunch the hard way too.(hunt) But you don't do that.

For the millionth time, all I'm saying, is that since nobody complains about not being able to 'earn' their lunch, why do so many complain that DCT prevents them from 'earning' their shift?

It's really a very basic concept.

My only purpose is to point out that people in modern society give up autonomy in all areas of their lives. But for some reason, certain people (you) cling to your manual. So all I'm doing is jokingly asking why you don't cling to hunting? All you can say is you don't like hunting. Pick another analogy then! Then all you can say is you don't have time to hunt. Pick another analogy then, which consumes less time! Its the principle.

I seriously don't understand why this doesn't get thru to anyone.
It's very funny to crack jokes about 'satisfying Chitown's law' but since its clearly not my intention to govern anyone's life, I find it rather sheepish to dismiss the fundamental argument.

At the end of the day, I would think you could just admit to yourself that a manual is just one easy way to retain some autonomy in your life since McDonalds and computers and matches do everything else for you and you don't have the time to hunt for your food. So, since you have enough time to 'shift' under your own power, then you choose to keep it in your life as a challenge for yourself to provide you with a sense of accomplishment when executed.

And again, for the last time, if a manual is only fun because its a challenge, then I'm asking whether it will cease to be 'fun' once you are intentionally handicapping yourself with it, thereby making it an 'artificial challenge.' Once, DCT is out, a manual is no longer a legitimate, genuine challenge. I personally don't think it will be fun anymore once you realize that 1)a machine is better than you, 2)that you are intentionally challenging yourself unnecessarily(since DCT now exists), in the attempt that you can trick yourself into feeling pride when executed.

Clearly, the majority don't seem to understand this idea which is why I get responses like "Life is too short"

No shit.

Have a good day all. I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about, thinks its an interesting point, and knows I have no intention of setting 'laws' or insulting the world; rather, that I am just humoring myself by trying to make people think. Unfortunately, most of my argument seems to have been wasted on those unable to think or unwilling to spend the time.
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      12-03-2007, 09:58 PM   #95
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Manual vs. DCT

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Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
I'm shocked that you can't just admit that you're intentionally doing something the hard way (manual).

And then admit that it would be more fun to 'earn' your lunch the hard way too.(hunt) But you don't do that.

For the millionth time, all I'm saying, is that since nobody complains about not being able to 'earn' their lunch, why do so many complain that DCT prevents them from 'earning' their shift?
Your argument is a real stretch. I'm open to DCT, but I do worry that the loss of immediate control over things like the exact feathering of the clutch, being able to blip the throttle, and the lesser involvement in the process will dilute the experience.

Let me use another example. If you could have sex instantly with a woman (assuming you're a straight male) by just flipping a switch, would that be as satisfying as the whole foreplay and game that proceed the actual act? I don't think so (unless you're a serial rapist). Now I may be stretching the point, but it's not black and white that one is better than the other.
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      12-03-2007, 10:34 PM   #96
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Now I may be stretching the point, but it's not black and white that one is better than the other.
I'm confused. Are you saying straight black males are better lovers than straight white males, or vice versa? If so, that would indeed be stretching the point.
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      12-03-2007, 10:40 PM   #97
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I'm confused. Are you saying straight black males are better lovers than straight white males, or vice versa? If so, that would indeed be stretching the point.
All depends on whose got the switch!
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      12-03-2007, 10:42 PM   #98
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All depends on whose got the switch!
Ah, that explains everything! All these years, man...If only I knew what was really going on. Thanks!
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      12-03-2007, 10:43 PM   #99
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I prefer Nutrigrain to both. Its instant and you can buy 8 for $5.99.

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      12-04-2007, 12:38 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
Your argument is a real stretch. I'm open to DCT, but I do worry that the loss of immediate control over things like the exact feathering of the clutch, being able to blip the throttle, and the lesser involvement in the process will dilute the experience.

Let me use another example. If you could have sex instantly with a woman (assuming you're a straight male) by just flipping a switch, would that be as satisfying as the whole foreplay and game that proceed the actual act? I don't think so (unless you're a serial rapist). Now I may be stretching the point, but it's not black and white that one is better than the other.
hilarious. I actually played out a sexual 'button' scenario myself. Seriously. You're presuming that the button couldn't also allow the foreplay, but anyways...

I believe you do get my point. Congratulations. I would argue that my point is not a stretch at all, however. Hunting is only a stretch because of how long ago we gave it up. But there are other things we could still be doing the hard way, today, to derive some sort of satisfaction. Therefore, I don't see any stretch.

If indeed DCT is inferior is certain respects then yes, there would be a valid reason to get manual besides intentionally doing something the hard way.

Now to the meat of the argument (no pun intended). The fact that you came up with the sex example proves we are on the same page. I never argued that DCT is more 'fun.' I actually think earning everything is more fun. Whether it be hunting, starting a fire by hand, mental math, or manual. You nicely illustrated the fact that the 'chase' is part of what makes getting a girl fun. If she just fell on your lap it wouldn't be as rewarding.(not that you'd turn it down)

So basically I think we agree as I assume most humans do, that earning our accomplishments is more 'fun' than when a computer does it for you(or button). That is why there are those who see ALL technology as a great evil. At least they are consistent tho in denouncing ALL technology (not just DCT). (ex ted Kaczynski "the unibomber" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski)

The problem is: If there was, indeed, a button that gave you sex, would we still force ourselves to go out and work for a girl. Intentionally do it the hard way rather than just push the button?

I agree that DCT may take the fun out of it.
But I just can't imagine forcing myself to do something the hard way, just to trick myself into feeling pride. Once the easy button exists, will you really be proud of yourself for shifting manually or will you just feel dumb for intentionally handicapping yourself? THAT is, again, the question.

I personally accept that technology will continue to advance, and we should set new/loftier goals. Take your DCT and challenge yourself to faster laps. Or enjoy the greater acceleration if you dont track. If all you enjoy about driving is the pride resulting from shifting, maybe you don't really enjoy driving for what it is. You just get reallll proud of yourself for your mad manual skillz and you prolly just enjoy it cuz it feeds your ego. Maybe we should just enjoy driving for the g forces, not the ego boost resulting from our 'mad skillz'.

When it comes to sex, you'll have to clarify exactly what the button does in order for me to respond. There will never be a button that you can push and have a girl fall in your lap. That is not possible. However, if a virtual girl fell in your lap, then that is different cuz its virtual and people will still want the 'real' thing. If the button causes you to feel the big 'o', then yes, ppl will use it. Exclusively? I dunno, but its a really damn good question. Would you 'earn' your o, or would you push the button. I guess we will have to face that if it ever happens. However, I think that is what you would call a big 'stretch'. Letting a computer shift a gear is a long way away from letting a computer control your own feelings. I tend to think we'd draw the line before we let computers control our 'o.'

ps I dunno why I'm saying 'o' while at the same time swearing.
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      12-04-2007, 12:42 AM   #101
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I just turned 19, 11th of November... Surprise surprise! ;D
im 18
beat that. do i win the new m3 or sumtn?
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      12-04-2007, 12:42 AM   #102
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ill take that sex button thank you
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      12-04-2007, 12:43 AM   #103
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I prefer Nutrigrain to both. Its instant and you can buy 8 for $5.99.

lol, wtfff

why was the black dude casually inspecting a pink thong?? haha
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      12-04-2007, 12:45 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Not Ur Avg 3 View Post
im 18
beat that. do i win the new m3 or sumtn?
no, you have to 'earn' it.

- manual "I earn my shifts the hard way" transmission lover
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      12-04-2007, 12:46 AM   #105
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lol, wtfff

why was the black dude casually inspecting a pink thong?? haha


I think he was thinking about putting it on.
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      12-04-2007, 06:59 AM   #106
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I read alot of this thread, but Jesus, not everything.

Personally, I like MT but I don't blame people for wanting DCT. I've driven a paddle shift BMW, hated it. With an MT I feel connected to the road, one with the car, I feel the road, can sense the shift points easily and tell you what RPM I am pushing in what gear etc. I also have a much easier time on twisting roads, curves etc with MT. Plus since the MT makes me feel one with the car and one with the road, in turn I am feeling one with the universe and am eligible to be a Tibetan monk. Wax on wax off.
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      12-04-2007, 09:06 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
I'm shocked that you can't just admit that you're intentionally doing something the hard way (manual).

And then admit that it would be more fun to 'earn' your lunch the hard way too.(hunt) But you don't do that.

For the millionth time, all I'm saying, is that since nobody complains about not being able to 'earn' their lunch, why do so many complain that DCT prevents them from 'earning' their shift?

It's really a very basic concept.

My only purpose is to point out that people in modern society give up autonomy in all areas of their lives. But for some reason, certain people (you) cling to your manual. So all I'm doing is jokingly asking why you don't cling to hunting? All you can say is you don't like hunting. Pick another analogy then! Then all you can say is you don't have time to hunt. Pick another analogy then, which consumes less time! Its the principle.

I seriously don't understand why this doesn't get thru to anyone.
It's very funny to crack jokes about 'satisfying Chitown's law' but since its clearly not my intention to govern anyone's life, I find it rather sheepish to dismiss the fundamental argument.

At the end of the day, I would think you could just admit to yourself that a manual is just one easy way to retain some autonomy in your life since McDonalds and computers and matches do everything else for you and you don't have the time to hunt for your food. So, since you have enough time to 'shift' under your own power, then you choose to keep it in your life as a challenge for yourself to provide you with a sense of accomplishment when executed.

And again, for the last time, if a manual is only fun because its a challenge, then I'm asking whether it will cease to be 'fun' once you are intentionally handicapping yourself with it, thereby making it an 'artificial challenge.' Once, DCT is out, a manual is no longer a legitimate, genuine challenge. I personally don't think it will be fun anymore once you realize that 1)a machine is better than you, 2)that you are intentionally challenging yourself unnecessarily(since DCT now exists), in the attempt that you can trick yourself into feeling pride when executed.

Clearly, the majority don't seem to understand this idea which is why I get responses like "Life is too short"

No shit.

Have a good day all. I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about, thinks its an interesting point, and knows I have no intention of setting 'laws' or insulting the world; rather, that I am just humoring myself by trying to make people think. Unfortunately, most of my argument seems to have been wasted on those unable to think or unwilling to spend the time.
I have admitted that I'm preferring MT, yes I do that intentionally. You summed up my points really good. I'll give it another try, though:
1. Yes, I like MT and that's what I'm preferring 'cause it makes (more) fun.
2. Yes, it's the harder way compared to a DCT.
3. Yes, I go to MackieD, use PCs and Calculators; no, I'm not hunting.
4. Is that inconsistent or hypocritical? Yes and No. YES, if you think one has either to adopt every kind of technological achievement or no technogical achievement at all. IMHO NO, that's my point! There may be things that are worth to be done the hard way. For me thats shifting manually, since it doesn't mean much effort. For me it doesn't mean much disadvantage over DCT. So, yes, I'm doing that one thing the hard way. Do I have to do all things the hard way? No, only things that worth to be done such.
Examples:
Do I go hunting? No, too much effort.
Do I my math "mentally"? Sometimes, but not when the result really "counts". (So you could compare that with DCT: Would best possible track time all I'm after, I had to choose DCT)
Do I heat with wood? Well, sometimes (wouldn't that be totally useless also, why doing that if there's the technogical leap of gas supply). It's like hunting. Most people don't use it to heat (meaning the house stays cold if they don't), but sometimes they use it to get that special feeling/ambience, hence it's more fun which is worth more effort made.
Do I play music with 2 decks and a mixer? Yes (WTF, how can I do that?) There are countless music programs out there which do all that stuff automatically. Just tell it what you want to listen to, do a playlist, the program does the beatmatching and all the other stuff. But it's not the same. Yeah, it's considerably more effort needed to beatmatch manually with two decks, but hey it's so much fun and as a hobby worth the effort.
So call that incosistent if you want. For me it's not, it's the conscious decision to adopt or not to adopt technological achievements. Some things are worth to be done the hard way (really like that term), some not.

Last I have to remark: Assuming (obviously not my opinion, only assuming) you're right about the incosistence, then why do it the hard way and use the paddles on your DCT equipped car. You can't shift in the perfect moment (meaning you're always some tenths too late or too early on the paddle), the computer does that for you. So why that effort? That's incosistent. You would insist on doing it the hard way. Only way to evade that inconsistence would be to demount the paddles. Think about it...


Best regards, south
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      12-04-2007, 09:36 AM   #108
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ZOMG! this thread is so outta control. can i get the cliff's notes version? Chi maybe you should publish it. how driving an MT relates to hunting i don't know and never will. either way, I guess all us MT guys will never have time to drive our babies seeing that we have to be in the woods all day long. DCT guys enjoy your McDonalds and calculators, us real men will keep doing things the caveman way. jk, don't flame.
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      12-04-2007, 09:47 AM   #109
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Yes, this thread is absurd, not to mention wildly OT.
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      12-04-2007, 12:49 PM   #110
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Southlight +10, that's what I've been thinking the whole time... Thank you for putting it into words
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