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      12-02-2007, 05:53 PM   #67
Voltigeur
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I have alittle reservation about moving back to Texas because the BMW crowd up in this area is great. And the roads are soo much more fun (but not clean year round like in Texas). So there are alot of pros/cons for both areas. I wish I could have an easy way to move back and forth, hah!
Dunno what part of Texas you're headed back to but my local BMW chapter (http://www.tejaschapter.org) has some fantastic drives in the Hill Country and out west.

And if you're really far out west you can drive a lot faster than up there
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      12-02-2007, 05:57 PM   #68
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I think that real cars are driven with a stick, it engages the driver in such a way as you become an important part of the car itself!
Not pounding, but when F1 went for electronic changes I took that as a sign that real cars can and do have such transmissions
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      12-02-2007, 06:01 PM   #69
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Chitown,

You had a melt down over my original post in which I stated: "Nothing against DCT, Ferrari's version on the F430 is great." So chitown are saying you love MTs?

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Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
Why do you resist DCT but accept McDonalds?
Great question. Is this what they call an abstract or formal thinking type of question. With your next Mac attack, order a couple of Big Macs and supersize the fries and drinks, then sit down and lounge around to a nice movie, Super Size Me would be a great choice.

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Deep down, I think we all know insisting on a manual is rather embarrassing. .
It is embarrassing. It is also embarrassing to outwit a wild trout with a fly you have tied with your own hands. It is embarrassing to fix your own cars and do your own home repairs. It is embarrassing to pay with cash, own your house, and have no debt. It is crazy to put in hours and hours of wasted time and work to train for a triatholon and spend frivolous years wasting away in school. But you know what, it is even more embarrassing thinking about the possibility of owning the Ultimate Yuppie symbol and responding to naive people who think it is something someone should be proud of and display like a badge. M's are tools to be driven, not to be displayed as supposed status symbols. So yes, I am embarrassed about a lot of things.

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If people stopped getting so defensive, maybe they'd admit it.
I am now admitting it. You are my mentor in learning how to never ever become defensive.

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It would be much too unpopular to agree with me.
Don't worry, you are still popular here. Swamp said that what you say is "essentially true."
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      12-02-2007, 06:03 PM   #70
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I do realize that, but I hate automated cars. I have nothing against SMG (and now DCT) if you drive it in "semi-manual" mode. But I think somewhere you just gotta have to draw a line. My line is when the computers start to interact with the humans work,
I can appreciate that philosophy. I'm still looking forward to M-DCT

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Now in Sweden we have a choice when we go and take our driverslicens (which is significantly harder than it is in the US ;-) ).
Hell, in just about every other developed country than the U.S. it's harder to get a license! Drivers' education & limits on new drivers are relatively lax here, IMO. I have had licenses in Canada, Australia and Germany (a beeatch - but good ed) and the U.S. test was easy. But, I don't want to get too as I'll start some board-war on this point
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      12-02-2007, 08:33 PM   #71
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Not pounding, but when F1 went for electronic changes I took that as a sign that real cars can and do have such transmissions
Now hold on now... That was not a statement of facts, it was a statement of my personal thoughts. I later on elaborated with my personal scenario to describe _why_ I think (and thought) what I do with 4 valid (IMHO again) points.

During this long and never ending discussion I've tried to input to the debate that we are all different and value different aspects of driving.

For clarification yet again:
I think DCT is cool (as long as you drive it in semi-manual).
I believe it's way better for racetracks.
I also belive that at some point you have to draw a line between what humans are suppose to do, and what machines can, and what we let machines do for us. (maybe a bit too inspired by A.I and I-Robot? )

Now clarification for why _I_ prefere manual transmission.
I'm never going to spank my baby at a racetrack.
I like to be engaged in things I love.

So... Because of that I like to be engaged in what I love, which in regard to this debate is driving, I should have to hunt my own food? I love to eat as well, let's invent a robot to feed me so that I can stop using my arms to flip and scotch the food into my mouth. It's just small and simple movements, therefor little effort and therefore low reward?

I find it more fun on public roads to have to make constant decisions, and then take actions all the time, instead of just pushing a lever whenever I need to shift up/down. Because of the shifting taking about 0.5 secs (when driving normally), you always plan your driving. If all I had to do was to push a button and it would shift down in .03 secs then I would be shifting more often without having to think about why I really shifted.

Remember, we are all different and value different things.
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      12-02-2007, 08:36 PM   #72
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I can appreciate that philosophy. I'm still looking forward to M-DCT
As am I! I'm even planning to switch to M-DCT M3 cab when it comes out after a year or so. It all depends on how it engages me and how my current driving style would be at that time.


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Hell, in just about every other developed country than the U.S. it's harder to get a license! Drivers' education & limits on new drivers are relatively lax here, IMO. I have had licenses in Canada, Australia and Germany (a beeatch - but good ed) and the U.S. test was easy. But, I don't want to get too as I'll start some board-war on this point
That may be true, just wanted to explain to everyone from U.S that there might be a somewhat cultural stance for my strong liking of manual transmissions.
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      12-02-2007, 08:41 PM   #73
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Now clarification for why _I_ prefere manual transmission.
I'm never going to spank my baby at a racetrack.
I like to be engaged in things I love.

Remember, we are all different and value different things.
Sure - I get it. I have driven manuals for most of my life for the same reasons. I just want to go high-tech this time and 'play' at being Schumi
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      12-02-2007, 09:02 PM   #74
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24 years old. I went to RPI also. Albany was a dump, but it was cheap and I was poor in college.

I'd like to get at least four years out of my 325i. That means I can place an order for an ED M3 in about 18 months. I think I was building BMWs online for 6 years before I actually got one.
24 years old here and waiting to get the call to order my M3!!!
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      12-02-2007, 09:24 PM   #75
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I suggest you all go and have a look at the latest Top Gear... The last couple of minutes... Enjoy your F1 driving, without a driver!
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      12-02-2007, 09:42 PM   #76
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I'm sorry, but you still don't get the point.
For me a MT is more fun than a DCT, the effort is little, so I'll go that way. Such a car is used mainly as DD, so you're point about improving race lines is neglegible for me. The hunting example still fails as analogy: Nobody hunts to get his necessary food these days. You're right that the perceived fun might be the higher, the higher the effort is. So I have to add the following criterion: Besides the above given example (that the relation between effort and perceived fun is out of proportion) there's another reason why you'd be willing to adopt new technology: When the effort itself is getting to high. No matter how much fun it would make to do anything the archaic way (hunting for example wouldn't be fun for me, but that's not a point you'd accept), you just don't have the time to make such a high effort. We can't go hunting 4 hours a day just to come back with a deer. So you're demanding that one who drives an MT car has to do things nobody else does and nobody else can do, otherwise it's inconsistent? Absurd!

I see where you're coming from. You kinda overreacted after he insulted you not being a real driver. I do understand that reaction, but then you'd only have to admit that it wasn't right to lump all MT drivers together and call 'em hypocritical. Doesn't seem to me that you'll be willing to admit that though since you're claiming that one would have to adopt every technological achievement available. Again: I don't have any aversion to DCT or SMG, I don't think it's evil or anything like that, it's just less fun for me and I like the fact that MTs are still available for performance cars like the M3, whereas the benefit of DCT is neglegible.


Best regards, south
You made some valid points. But hunting is still a valid analogy. It's just impractical nowadays as you say. My point is only that if you miss manuals, then you should also miss hunting. Not that you are able to actually go do it.

The bottom line is that to pick a manual is to artificially/intentionally create a challenge for yourself, since it is no longer a necessary challenge, simply to enable yourself to feel pride when accomplished.

Once it becomes an intentional, self-induced obstacle, I think it loses its genuine ability to create feelings of accomplishment/pride. At this point it ceases to be 'fun.' There was nothing inherently 'fun' about rowing, it was the 'challenge' which made it fun, only now its is a fake challenge you forced upon yourself. If you still feel proud, you are just fooling yourself.

My only point is that to be consistent, anyone who insists on challenging themselves with a manual, must therefore also insist on doing all sorts of other things the hard way. Whether it be hunting, making fire, doing math, etc. If you are so concerned about retaining your pride in shifting, why did you give up all the other little challenges of life which used to give you pride? Then I'm taking it a step further and saying there is no genuine reason to continue to be proud of manually shifting, because its no longer a genuine challenge. It is a self-imposed challenge. Once you realize this, it ceases to create pride and thus it ceases to be 'fun' because it is not inherently 'fun' in and of itself. It was only fun when it was a challenge, a real genuine challenge.
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      12-02-2007, 09:57 PM   #77
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Chitown,

You had a melt down over my original post in which I stated: "Nothing against DCT, Ferrari's version on the F430 is great." So chitown are saying you love MTs?

Great question. Is this what they call an abstract or formal thinking type of question. With your next Mac attack, order a couple of Big Macs and supersize the fries and drinks, then sit down and lounge around to a nice movie, Super Size Me would be a great choice.


It is embarrassing. It is also embarrassing to outwit a wild trout with a fly you have tied with your own hands. It is embarrassing to fix your own cars and do your own home repairs. It is embarrassing to pay with cash, own your house, and have no debt. It is crazy to put in hours and hours of wasted time and work to train for a triatholon and spend frivolous years wasting away in school. But you know what, it is even more embarrassing thinking about the possibility of owning the Ultimate Yuppie symbol and responding to naive people who think it is something someone should be proud of and display like a badge. M's are tools to be driven, not to be displayed as supposed status symbols. So yes, I am embarrassed about a lot of things.

I am now admitting it. You are my mentor in learning how to never ever become defensive.

Don't worry, you are still popular here. Swamp said that what you say is "essentially true."
Parts of your answer make me think you agree with me and others not so much, so I'm not really sure how to respond.

But for the record, I am definitely NOT defensive over DCT. How could I be defensive? I don't own DCT, I do not have an order placed, I'm undecided, and I own/love my manual. I just think it is fascinating the way die hard manual drivers are so stubbornly proud of themselves. And how they 'draw the line' at letting a machine shift for them, but they didn't 'draw the line' before they adopted any other of countless technologies which have replaced mans effort in all aspects of our lives.
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      12-02-2007, 10:26 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
Parts of your answer make me think you agree with me and others not so much, so I'm not really sure how to respond.

But for the record, I am definitely NOT defensive over DCT. How could I be defensive? I don't own DCT, I do not have an order placed, I'm undecided, and I own/love my manual. I just think it is fascinating the way die hard manual drivers are so stubbornly proud of themselves. And how they 'draw the line' at letting a machine shift for them, but they didn't 'draw the line' before they adopted any other of countless technologies which have replaced mans effort in all aspects of our lives.
I've been a manual driver for all 43 years now, but I'm certainly open to DCT. I think until you've tried it it's a leap of faith to say you're going to prefer an automanual to a full manual. Certainly you lose some degree of nuance--the ability to vary the clutch release rate instantly, the ability to blip the throttle, etc. Though I'm fairly skilled with a clutch, I have no need to prove myself by making things more difficult for myself. DCT will give closer ratios, presumably (if a 7-speed), faster shifts and the ability to left-foot brake (hope Dr. G. is working on a new version of this: http://gsperformance.com/products/p7/p7.htm). All this needs to be balanced with the added weight, cost and complexity (more stuff to break).

It's not an easy decision. I just hope it comes out soon enough that I actually have a choice without delaying my purchase too long.
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      12-03-2007, 01:46 AM   #79
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Dunno what part of Texas you're headed back to but my local BMW chapter (http://www.tejaschapter.org) has some fantastic drives in the Hill Country and out west.

And if you're really far out west you can drive a lot faster than up there
I'll be returning to the DFW area. Where abouts are you? And when you say "West" are you refering to El Paso? Because I doubt i'll ever drive that far out for a bit of fun, they suddenly opened a track that matches the reputation of the Nurburgring or Deals Gap.
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      12-03-2007, 02:12 AM   #80
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I've been a manual driver for all 43 years now, but I'm certainly open to DCT. I think until you've tried it it's a leap of faith to say you're going to prefer an automanual to a full manual. Certainly you lose some degree of nuance--the ability to vary the clutch release rate instantly, the ability to blip the throttle, etc. Though I'm fairly skilled with a clutch, I have no need to prove myself by making things more difficult for myself. DCT will give closer ratios, presumably (if a 7-speed), faster shifts and the ability to left-foot brake (hope Dr. G. is working on a new version of this: http://gsperformance.com/products/p7/p7.htm). All this needs to be balanced with the added weight, cost and complexity (more stuff to break).

It's not an easy decision. I just hope it comes out soon enough that I actually have a choice without delaying my purchase too long.
Greg, I am fairly sure that both SMG and DCT systems do vary the speed of the clutching operations. They also throttle blip/rev match quite well. SMG II did not do it perfectly, but pretty darn well. Again here the simply amazing consistency is valuable as well. You can also blip your throttle manually if you really want to do so for aural pleasure.

What I can say about SMG II was that it takes some practice and some time with it to totally adapt to it and mesh with it. DCT should be less so, but either way if you try to make a decision based on a single short test, you would certainly be doing yourself a disservice.
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      12-03-2007, 04:00 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
24 years old here and waiting to get the call to order my M3!!!
i feel like im the only person without a order number...perhaps its because i told my sales guy that i am waiting for DCT...I wish i could call him up right now and tell him to put my order in but ill holdout until official word of DCT.
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      12-03-2007, 05:18 AM   #82
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LOL, can someone construct a decent argument for or against automated manuals? You all sound like 10 yearold school girls wondering what their first bra is going to be like! I could do it, but really I could give a toss what everyone else's gearbox of choice is. Even though half the people that are married to DCT have never driven a automated manual for any period of time, lol much?
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      12-03-2007, 05:48 AM   #83
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Lil. Lucas - I fully agree with you I'ts a bit like arguing about what's the best M3 color - everyone has their own preferences and it's a free world - so live and let others live...
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      12-03-2007, 09:58 AM   #84
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Lil. Lucas - I fully agree with you I'ts a bit like arguing about what's the best M3 color - everyone has their own preferences and it's a free world - so live and let others live...
Exactly, I agree as well... Like I've been saying for a couple of posts now... Life is too short!
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      12-03-2007, 11:25 AM   #85
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Greg, I am fairly sure that both SMG and DCT systems do vary the speed of the clutching operations. They also throttle blip/rev match quite well. SMG II did not do it perfectly, but pretty darn well. Again here the simply amazing consistency is valuable as well. You can also blip your throttle manually if you really want to do so for aural pleasure.

What I can say about SMG II was that it takes some practice and some time with it to totally adapt to it and mesh with it. DCT should be less so, but either way if you try to make a decision based on a single short test, you would certainly be doing yourself a disservice.
Paraphrase from Steve Millen, racer extaordinaire, in this months R&T V8 comparison test, "I've been driving a manual for 40 years, give me paddles every day."
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      12-03-2007, 01:20 PM   #86
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LOL, can someone construct a decent argument for or against automated manuals? You all sound like 10 yearold school girls wondering what their first bra is going to be like! I could do it, but really I could give a toss what everyone else's gearbox of choice is. Even though half the people that are married to DCT have never driven a automated manual for any period of time, lol much?
I think the discussion and debate here has been pretty good, as have a variety of other long threads on the topic here on the board in months past. Perhaps I only like the debate because I am an active participant. Can you point out a forum or articles or discussion that is better? We would all like to read it if so.

What I find particularly entertaining about your post is your insistence that THE ONLY way to experience something or judge it is based on seat time. I wholeheartedly disagree. I personally have not driven a DSG (but have driven SMG). I have been down to a local VW dealer to play with the DSG in the GTI but kind of feel that I shouldn't/wouldn't be allowed to drive it really hard so I have not done that yet. Where do I get my inspiration from? Facts, science, physics, engineering, math and of course a good dose of analogies, educated guesses and ocassionally even some speculation. Many will immediately discredit such an approach but if you are not educated in these domains (math, engineering, physics) it is very easy to say "seat time is the only way to judge something or make any valid conclusions". If, however, you undestand the basics; calculus, shock and accleration, Newton's Laws, etc. using science you can really predict and understand in a very intricate, fundamental and deep fashion the "feel" and performance of a design without having driven it. Again it sounds strange but if "second time derivates" and "conservation of angular momentum" sound totally foreign than this concept will as well. Sure nothing can entirely replace seat time and of course all good engineers always want to get their hands on the "hardware" and actually test it and feel it. When you combine both - the experiential and the intimate knowledge you can have from the math/phyiscs side then you really will have the ulitmate knowledge and "intimacy" with a design. If you have only seat time and possess no understanding of the physics you are missing something big, important and insightful and you probably will never even know it. Neither method of gaining knowledge alone can provide full insight.
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      12-03-2007, 02:21 PM   #87
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LOL, can someone construct a decent argument for or against automated manuals? You all sound like 10 yearold school girls wondering what their first bra is going to be like! I could do it, but really I could give a toss what everyone else's gearbox of choice is. Even though half the people that are married to DCT have never driven a automated manual for any period of time, lol much?
There is good discussion on this board on 6MT vs. DCT--this and other threads. So, I don't understand the motivation behind your post as it clearly fails to add anything. Nobody is really trying to convince another to buy this or that. People are simply debating (and learning), with some sarcasm injected here and there to spice things up. What have you got to add to the discussion? Why not stay out of it if you find it meaningless?
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      12-03-2007, 02:27 PM   #88
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My only point is that to be consistent, anyone who insists on challenging themselves with a manual, must therefore also insist on doing all sorts of other things the hard way.
Still not agreeing. Anyway I'm not insisting on MT, just preferring it. So I'm glad that I don't have to go hunting instead of eating a BigMac according to your latest definition.
Sometime I might join the DCT III or IV club though... (in the hope of being accepted by mighty Sw, then )


Best regards, south
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