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      12-02-2007, 12:14 AM   #45
nechronics
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Originally Posted by EnzoB View Post
I am getting used to the way of topic part. I am 23 years old, soon to be 24.

I will most likely get the M3 this summer, but I will have to consider a few things before I make the purchase. I travel quite frequently and I want to make sure that I will really have the time to appreciate the car and use it. Most likely the car will be with me in my Cali house instead of Chicago, so I will to talk to some dealers out west, any suggestions?

Thanks to everyone who have received their cars and posted pics, it really helps with the wait.
geez, at 23 and all that cash what do you do exactly?
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      12-02-2007, 12:27 AM   #46
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swears are what happens when I have to endure illogical argument from mainly your mouth.

swears are what you attack because you couldn't refute anything I said, because it makes sense. You should try it. People wouldn't destroy you so often.

I am not swamps sidekick, nor will I ever be anyone's sidekick. That said, I approve of those who use reason, which swamp uses the majority of the time. And I disapprove of those who are illogical, especially when they purport to be logical. Enter you. Maybe you will understand if I put it this way: If you made a reasonable point, I would be your 'sidekick'.

I have experienced powder. What that has to do with anything related to this topic, I have no idea. I am fond of nature, including powder. And I am fond of skiing. Since you brought up skiing, I'll just take 30 seconds to re-destroy your logic- this time with a skiing example.

A few yrs back, something called 'parabolic' skis were invented. The sidecut of the ski was shaped in an arc which helped in turning. Put the ski on its edge, and it 'wants' to turn. You could say it 'turns FOR you'. So everyone adopted these new 'shaped' skis and threw out their old, 'straight'(edged) skis. Progress. Nobody said, "ohhhhh, but I was just learning to master the art of turning on straight skisssss"!!!

In case you missed, it this is whats called an analogy. The shaped skis represent progress (DCT), and the straight skis represent pointless inefficiency (manual).

If you ski, I hope you ski to your hut with straight skis- make that wooden skis since you are anti-innovation (composite skis). And once there, you grab some sticks and get rubbin.

Don't bother responding until you can reconcile your inconsistency in adoption of technology vs. denouncement.
Excellent point, particularly the one about "swears." I do know a little bit about analogies.

How about this, why don't you just get rid of the archaic skiis and get yourself a snowmobile. You will be able to go from point A to point B so much more efficiently and guess what, it even has seat and you can sit on it and take your favorite passenger with you. Now here is the kicker, it has a DCT like transmission. Enough said. However, there is more, you can even go uphill much faster than on skiis. And finally, why should one have to experience the horrors of driving in the mountains to the resort, when you can simply charter a small helicopter, with your posse waiting to escort you to your suite.
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      12-02-2007, 12:28 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
Everyone should have learned this by now: trying to get others to believe what you believe is futile. Let people make their own decisions. Otherwise, we are no better than certain governments that try to establish and implement their beliefs in the rest of the world. None of us want that.
A little grandiose, but relevant.
Agree completely. I am only attacking hypocrisy/inconsistency/lack of reason.
I have nothing against manual fans. I have something against illogical argument (aka, the vocal anti- DCT establishment).

You could say I am 'calling people out' on the belief that manual is human autonomy at its greatest and must not be relinquished to a machine. In all aspects of our lives, we use innovations to improve our standard of living. The same people who rip DCT, happily accept technologic advancement in so many other areas.

It is inconsistent to resist DCT but accept a calculator.

If you want to retain the rewarding achievement of manual shifting (and deny DCt)-
Then you should do long-division by hand (and deny calculators).

It is utter hypocrisy to denounce DCT while using a calculator.
I am simply pointing out the inconsistency- the flawed thinking which somehow disapproves of DCT and an evil against autonomy.

I am not attempting to 'convert' anyone. If you want a manual, you should have a manual. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a manual.

My point is that the belief that DCT is evil is inconsistent and makes no logical sense given our use of technology everywhere else.

The final answer is do what you enjoy, but you're a joke if you think DCT is bad but your calculator is good. If that is you, then you have no ability to reason.

If you prefer manual, but have nothing against DCT because you realize that you accept DCT-like technology in all other areas of your life, then you are not a hypocrite.
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      12-02-2007, 12:41 AM   #48
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Chitown

I've been driving cars for less than a year... I enjoy how the manual transmissions engages me in the driving. Making me think and make choices. I've never been on a track, nor do I plan to with my baby.

If your hostility where non-existent in your posts, I might actually have formed some regrets about my choice (if it weren't for the extended dreadful waiting time (until March)).

When I'm the same age as my parents, I'll follow your lead!
Let me get back to you.
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      12-02-2007, 12:46 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
Agree completely. I am only attacking hypocrisy/inconsistency/lack of reason.
I have nothing against manual fans. I have something against illogical argument (aka, the vocal anti- DCT establishment).

You could say I am 'calling people out' on the belief that manual is human autonomy at its greatest and must not be relinquished to a machine. In all aspects of our lives, we use innovations to improve our standard of living. The same people who rip DCT, happily accept technologic advancement in so many other areas.

It is inconsistent to resist DCT but accept a calculator.

If you want to retain the rewarding achievement of manual shifting (and deny DCt)-
Then you should do long-division by hand (and deny calculators).

It is utter hypocrisy to denounce DCT while using a calculator.
I am simply pointing out the inconsistency- the flawed thinking which somehow disapproves of DCT and an evil against autonomy.

I am not attempting to 'convert' anyone. If you want a manual, you should have a manual. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a manual.

My point is that the belief that DCT is evil is inconsistent and makes no logical sense given our use of technology everywhere else.

The final answer is do what you enjoy, but you're a joke if you think DCT is bad but your calculator is good. If that is you, then you have no ability to reason.

If you prefer manual, but have nothing against DCT because you realize that you accept DCT-like technology in all other areas of your life, then you are not a hypocrite.
Now this is the definition of logic. You should submit this to BMW. They can use it in their marketing campaign for the upcoming M-DCT launch.
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      12-02-2007, 01:26 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Excellent point, particularly the one about "swears." I do know a little bit about analogies.

How about this, why don't you just get rid of the archaic skiis and get yourself a snowmobile. You will be able to go from point A to point B so much more efficiently and guess what, it even has seat and you can sit on it and take your favorite passenger with you. Now here is the kicker, it has a DCT like transmission. Enough said. However, there is more, you can even go uphill much faster than on skiis. And finally, why should one have to experience the horrors of driving in the mountains to the resort, when you can simply charter a small helicopter with your posse waiting to escort you to your suite.
I was excited to see a response, but this is not a good one I'm afraid.

What does a snowmobile have to do with skiing? They are two completely different things? Riding a snowmobile is nothing like skiing.

I ski because of the rush achieved with speed and the g forces achieved with high-speed turning. No snowmobile can do either. If it could, and it could do it better, I would probably give up skiing and do it instead. Let Bode Miller race a downhill course against a snowmobile and see what happens. A snowmobile is a joke. And it is a completely different animal so whats your point?

The fundamental problem with your argument is that you presume that I ski solely to 'get from point A to point B.' No one skis to get from point A to point B. They ski for the rush of skiing. There is no point except to enjoy it. The rush, the feeling, the challenge. If I wanted to get from point A to point B, I would indeed choose a snowmobile. (and technically, skis are much faster than a snowmobile downhill on snow involving any turning, so your point is even flawed in this respect)

If you were smart, you would say, well, if I ski simply for the enjoyment/challenge, then how is that any different from wanting a manual simply for the enjoyment/challenge. Why? Because pedal pushing and rowing are not inherently rewarding. The goal is to shift. The goal is not to row. The rowing is only a means to the end, which is shifting. If you sat in a car with the engine off- would it be fun to row gears? No. It would be stupid. There is no inherent enjoyment of a manual. And the act of rowing is pointless.
If you think feathering the clutch or rev matching is the challenge that you so enjoy, then you're getting warmer. This could be the challenge you are so obsessed with accomplishing manually. However, what is the measurement of a race. Its time. Its not 'smoothness of heel/toe.' If you are into performance cars/tracking them, then your challenge is the TIME. Not the heel/toe. The DCT improves the time, so you should like it. Why aren't you mad about better suspensions, better tire compounds, better balance. Wouldn't it be a bigger challenge to drive a school bus fast? Why don't you resist any new technology in other parts of the car. Like the differential. It reduces slippage and makes it easier to go fast without crashing. No doubt, it reduces the 'challenge' of driving, so why aren't you against that?(some ppl do turn it off) Why aren't you against grippier tires? They make it easier for you, reduce the 'challenge'. Why aren't you against better suspensions? Why don't you put in a decrepit old suspension? It would surely increase the 'challenge' of driving? But you don't. You take it. And you LIKE it. Why? Because it makes you go FASTER. And it is the SPEED that you like, not the pointless act of rowing. There are only a thousand things which reduce the 'challenge' of driving. Why wage a war soley on DCT? Its just one of many.
And if you don't track your car, then it is the g force upon acceleration/turning that you love. Neither will be reduced by DCT. In fact, DCT will INCREASE acceleration and the g force in the back of your seat that you love. So why diss on DCT, again?

People race cars for many of the same reasons I ski. The g forces, the speed, the rush, the challenge. The only things we should be against are speed limits and self-driving cars. Anything that improves performance should and will be accepted. The challenge is TIME/SPEED, not heel/toeing. Heel/toeing is pointless. Its imperfect. Its inefficient. It distracts you from your line. I do not ski straight skis just to make it harder on myself, so why would you drive a manual just to make it harder on yourself?

Maybe you are confused by my attack. I attacked your diss on DCT because there is no way for a person living in modern society to diss on DCT as a crime against human autonomy, while they simultaneously adopt other technology. It is hypocrisy at its finest.

If you like manual, then get it. Whatever makes a person happy. But do not attempt to argue that DCT is evil. That is a ridiculous argument. It cannot be made with any credibility unless a person is anti-technology and lives in that manner (hut,hunt,fire).

Some people don't seem to be getting this point. It is rewarding to start a fire by hand, just like it is rewarding to manually rev-match/heel-toe/dub-declutch.
Therefore-
If you think DCT ruins the achievement of manual shifting, then why do you use matches?? You are already depriving yourself the joy of fire-starting, but have somehow chosen DCT as the technology to resist at all costs. It makes no sense.
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      12-02-2007, 01:28 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Now this is the definition of logic. You should submit this to BMW. They can use it in their marketing campaign for the upcoming M-DCT launch.
ur right, ignorant sarcasm is the definition of logic. my bad
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      12-02-2007, 01:58 AM   #52
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Chitown, I think it's about being engaged in the things you love.

Consider this scenario:
1. You're not going to the race track.
2. You like the acceleration.
3. You like to be an active part of things you love.
4. You like the substance your brain rewards you with when you make a perfect shift.

That basically sums up my reasons for preferring manuals. We are all unique and have different excitements and enjoyments in life.

The whole point of this argument is where you draw the line. You're drawing the line at "The only things we should be against are speed limits and self-driving cars.", my line is at automated shifting. The reason for my line being there is because I don't go to tracks.
Maybe you're different in this aspect compared to me? I know for sure that you are in others.
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      12-02-2007, 02:01 AM   #53
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This thread became tl;dr

Most of the DCT favored debaters have valid points in terms of progress and technology. However, I feel that manual transmissions will always be around simply because of the sentiment they provide and enable. For the same reason that when I get my DCT M3 I'll be washing it by hand. Not to say that a similar sentiment can't be otherwise obtained. For me DCT offers greater versatility but I can appreciate the fun that is to be had from a MT.

As for it just being a press of the pedal and a stroke of the shifter, well many times when you break down any number of pleasurable actions it becomes simple repetition.
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      12-02-2007, 02:20 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Champagne View Post
Chitown

I've been driving cars for less than a year... I enjoy how the manual transmissions engages me in the driving. Making me think and make choices. I've never been on a track, nor do I plan to with my baby.

If your hostility where non-existent in your posts, I might actually have formed some regrets about my choice (if it weren't for the extended dreadful waiting time (until March)).

When I'm the same age as my parents, I'll follow your lead!
Let me get back to you.
I understand this thinking, and I agree with you. Manuals 'engage' you in the driving. But you will have to be 'engaged' with DCT as well (unless put in auto mode). The only difference is that you move your finger and not your feet and arm. If your first car was a DCT you would say, "I like DCT because it is more involving than an automatic." You wouldn't even know manual ever existed. And you certainly wouldn't see manual drivers and be like "hmm, it looks like so much fun to yank a lever and stomp a clutch pedal." Which is my point that there is nothing inherently enjoyable about a manual.

What you enjoy is controlling the shift points. Which we all do. Automatics are always downshifting and doing whatever it thinks you want instead of what you really want. There is a disconnect and a lack of control which is annoying. THAT is why you like your manual.

Some people who already know how to drive manual seem to have an elitist mentality about it that they don't want to relinquish. I think that is just sad because we could do all sorts of things the 'old' way, but we don't. And it would be pathetic to think more of ourselves for doing something the old way.

If manual lovers lived back in the day when matches were invented, they would not use them. They would cling to their pride resulting from the knowledge of how to make a fire by hand. They would call rubbing sticks together and blowing- an 'art.' They would insult those who 'lazily' used matches. They would claim matches take all the 'fun' out of starting a fire. They would worry and say, 'but now anyone can make a fire with matches.' Even tho that is the point. And then they would be sad, because matches took away their pride and joy in this world- their source of self-worth.

Which is why I say get a manual if you must. Do what makes you happy. But spare the rest of us the illogical insults against our 'lazy' use of matches.

Last edited by chitown08; 12-02-2007 at 04:03 AM.
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      12-02-2007, 05:03 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne View Post
Chitown, I think it's about being engaged in the things you love.

Consider this scenario:
1. You're not going to the race track.
2. You like the acceleration.
3. You like to be an active part of things you love.
4. You like the substance your brain rewards you with when you make a perfect shift.

That basically sums up my reasons for preferring manuals. We are all unique and have different excitements and enjoyments in life.

The whole point of this argument is where you draw the line. You're drawing the line at "The only things we should be against are speed limits and self-driving cars.", my line is at automated shifting. The reason for my line being there is because I don't go to tracks.
Maybe you're different in this aspect compared to me? I know for sure that you are in others.
Your point #4 is the central debate. It is why all manual lovers resist DCT. I understand the resistance, but I think it is inconsistent with they way we live the rest of our lives. I am simply pointing out the inconsistency.

Your essential argument is this:
Everyone wants to EARN their good shift. They don't want a computer to do it for them. DCT reduces the challenge of making a good shift.

But, if that is the line of thinking, it must follow that:

Everyone should want to EARN their lunch. AKA hunt for lunch, not buy it from McDonalds. And since a gun would reduce the challenge of EARNING lunch, one should not use a gun, one should use a bow/arrow. But since a bow and arrow reduces the challenge of EARNING lunch, one should not use any weapon. One should use his bare hands. This thinking has no end. It goes on to infinity; To the origin of man; To the origin of life. You can take it further and say that one should wish humans had not evolved such good eyesight, cuz it makes it too easy to hunt; takes away from the 'challenge.' And you could say you wish humans had not evolved such powerful brains cuz it makes it too easy to outwit our prey; takes away from the 'challenge.'

Substitute 'hunting' with anything. I have already compared it to fire, to a calculator, to computers, to better suspensions, to better tires, and now it is DCT.

At every step of the way, man has evolved biologically, and now much more significantly, technologically. At every step of the way, what used to be a challenge, is now a piece of cake. And every time this happens, we accept it and set our sights even higher. We do not resist advancement simply to preserve a pointless 'challenge' to feed our egos when accomplished. If we did, then we would be hunting, EARNING our lunch. The satisfaction to be had in actually hunting for your lunch, I'm sure is great. Just like I'm sure the satisfaction of starting a fire unassisted while stranded on an island is great. However, we do not insist on hunting for our food when there is McDonalds; on making our own fires, when there are matches. So why do some insist on manually shifting the transmission, when there is DCT?

All anyone can say is: "Manually shifting is fun/rewarding/challenging."

And all I am saying is: "So is hunting for ur own food, making your own fire. But we don't do that anymore."

For the last time:
If you use McDonalds, if you use matches, if you use a calculator, then you are letting technology do something for you that would otherwise provide you with a sense of accomplishment had you done it yourself.

Therefore, the Question from me to everyone is:
Why do you allow technology to replace certain human challenges, but you insist that you retain the challenge of a manual?

This is the fundamental contradiction illustrated by the manual crowd.


I have not heard a single, valid point to refute my position.
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      12-02-2007, 05:44 AM   #56
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Everyone should have learned this by now: trying to get others to believe what you believe is futile. Let people make their own decisions. Otherwise, we are no better than certain governments that try to establish and implement their beliefs in the rest of the world. None of us want that.
A little grandiose, but relevant.
+1 a good point. You did see how I opened my post to Champagne that started up the same old debate again, right?
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      12-02-2007, 06:36 AM   #57
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Therefore, the Question from me to everyone is:
Why do you allow technology to replace certain human challenges, but you insist that you retain the challenge of a manual?

This is the fundamental contradiction illustrated by the manual crowd.
I don't like the arrogance you're showing here. Everybody is free to decide for himself which technology he wants to adopt and which not. What you didn't see yet is the relation between fun and effort. That's why all your technology examples/analogies which replaced that archaic activities fail. The effort you'd have to make to hunt for your food, to make fire the traditional way or to do complex calculations without a calculator are out of all proportions to the (hypothetical) fun.
Having an MT instead of a DCT however can be worth the effort: What you get is more fun (not for all, but there are people who like heel/toeing and rowing the gears, not even you did question that), and all the effort you have to "make" is to accept that an MT is some tenths slower in the performance categories. For me it's worth the fun, maybe not for you (maybe not even fun or you just want the fastest possible configuration).
I can understand that someone wants a DCT, there are reasons to go that way, but characterizing MT addicts hypocritical is insulting and totally unfounded. Stop that.

Best regards, south

Last edited by southlight; 12-02-2007 at 07:44 AM.
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      12-02-2007, 06:41 AM   #58
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this is horrible D:
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      12-02-2007, 06:41 AM   #59
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Life just is too short.
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      12-02-2007, 09:59 AM   #60
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this is horrible D:
i was thinking totally retarded, but whatever. by the way, i don't use mcdonalds or calculators and i hunt my own food. so therefore, according to Chitown law, I am legally allowed to purchase E92 M3 with MT. HOORAY!
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      12-02-2007, 10:36 AM   #61
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geez, at 23 and all that cash what do you do exactly?
I work in the VC industry

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      12-02-2007, 03:31 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by southlight View Post
I don't like the arrogance you're showing here. Everybody is free to decide for himself which technology he wants to adopt and which not. What you didn't see yet is the relation between fun and effort. That's why all your technology examples/analogies which replaced that archaic activities fail. The effort you'd have to make to hunt for your food, to make fire the traditional way or to do complex calculations without a calculator are out of all proportions to the (hypothetical) fun.
Having an MT instead of a DCT however can be worth the effort: What you get is more fun (not for all, but there are people who like heel/toeing and rowing the gears, not even you did question that), and all the effort you have to "make" is to accept that an MT is some tenths slower in the performance categories. For me it's worth the fun, maybe not for you (maybe not even fun or you just want the fastest possible configuration).
I can understand that someone wants a DCT, there are reasons to go that way, but characterizing MT addicts hypocritical is insulting and totally unfounded. Stop that.

Best regards, south
You claim that what I am missing is the 'relation between fun and effort.'

I think you are missing the relation between fun and effort.
Fun is what you feel when you conquer a challenge.(manual shift)
Manual transmission is the challenge.
It takes very little effort and provides a small amount of fun.
It is a very easy way for us to feel a small sense of pride and accomplishment.

Now, lets increase the amount of effort and see what happens to fun:

For those advanced Manual drivers who heel/toe and perfectly rev match, while ripping the Nurburgring, there is ALOT of effort involved.
This LARGE amount of effort provides a LARGE sense of accomplishment and a LARGE amount of 'fun.' As it should.

As you can see, the more effort, the greater the rewarding feeling, and the more 'fun.' The bigger the challenge, the greater potential for 'fun' to be felt when conquered. Seriously think about that. Its true.

Which is why it follows logically that hunting would be extremely challenging and extremely fun. Just look at all the men who still do it as sport. Eating at McDonalds has deprived them of this challenge.

DCT deprives you of a challenge.

Why do you resist DCT but accept McDonalds?

I'm sure if you spent 4 hrs hunting and caught some game with your own bare hands, you would feel super proud of yourself and deem it fun. More effort, more fun. The greater the time investment the greater the potential reward. And do not tell me that there is no other brute challenge which would be fun to you besides shifting a manual. I am sure you would feel pride if you did other tasks by hand, but in most cases, you just let technology do it for you.

I applaud you for at least considering my point. And for the last time, it is not my intention to insult MT owners. I am yet undecided as to which I will choose. It is simply my intention to point out the hypocrisy in those who rip on DCT as a inhibitor to 'fun,' while at the same time do not decry all other 'fun' activities which have been replaced by technology.

Deep down, I think we all know insisting on a manual is rather embarrassing. Its embarrassing that we think rowing gears is something to be proud of, but we can't help it. At some point you have to realize that the sun has set on this activity, however. So set yourself on a new challenge. McDonalds has replaced the challenge of hunting, so we challenge ourselves in new ways. Let DCT push you to the next level where you can learn how to really track a car. Previously, you were too busy shifting to really conquer a good line at the Nurburgring.
Where would man be if we refused McDonalds and insisted on hunting for 4 hrs per day? Where would formula 1 drivers be if they refused paddles and still rowed their gears? Accept the new technology and conquer a new, greater challenge.

Or don't, I don't care, I just wanted to point out the inconsistency.

If people stopped getting so defensive, maybe they'd admit it.

I don't anticipate that any manual lover will swallow their pride and admit that what I'm saying is true. Everyone must maintain their fragile reputation on m3post. Not to mention their belief that rowing gears is somehow noble. It would be much too unpopular to agree with me.

Have a good day
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      12-02-2007, 03:47 PM   #63
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Man... You're so offensive that at least I feel I have to get defensive.

"Consider this scenario:
1. You're not going to the race track.
2. You like the acceleration.
3. You like to be an active part of things you love.
4. You like the substance your brain rewards you with when you make a perfect shift."

I was explaining my point of view, and why I prefer manual transmissions. Because of my lack of skill/fear of crashing, I'm not going near a race track. Therefore I will only be seen on public roads which has it's limits.

I must agree that according to #2, DCT would be waaay better.. But it would derive the other factors in my own personal scenario. You are into racing for sure, and that's fine. I enjoy watching racing, and especially when reviewers go to the track and show off cars like Ferrari 599, Porsche GT3 RS and so on... But for me myself, it's manual all the way!

Likewise... have a good day!
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      12-02-2007, 04:33 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne View Post
Man... You're so offensive that at least I feel I have to get defensive.

"Consider this scenario:
1. You're not going to the race track.
2. You like the acceleration.
3. You like to be an active part of things you love.
4. You like the substance your brain rewards you with when you make a perfect shift."

I was explaining my point of view, and why I prefer manual transmissions. Because of my lack of skill/fear of crashing, I'm not going near a race track. Therefore I will only be seen on public roads which has it's limits.

I must agree that according to #2, DCT would be waaay better.. But it would derive the other factors in my own personal scenario. You are into racing for sure, and that's fine. I enjoy watching racing, and especially when reviewers go to the track and show off cars like Ferrari 599, Porsche GT3 RS and so on... But for me myself, it's manual all the way!

Likewise... have a good day!
Again, your point #4 is the central argument. I understand that manually shifting gives you a sense of accomplishment and pride. It does for me too.

My only point is that you should have this same attachment to hunting for your own food, rather than letting McDonalds serve it to you. But since you let McDonalds do it for you, why don't you let DCT do it for you? If you insist on manually accomplishing a shift, why don't you insist on manually catching your dinner? Its inconsistent. Just admit it. Its okay. We humans are losing all the sources of autonomous joy in our lives as machines take over. People don't want to give up their manual because its something they feel proud in doing. I don't blame them. But I just want to hear someone admit that its inconsistent to cling to manual but to give up hunting.

The only reason you don't miss hunting is because we are too young. If we lived at a time when animals began to be domesticated, we would say "man, this takes all the fun away from hunting- the challenge of the hunt." We'd be bored and dissappointed just like DCT will bore and disappoint us.

Therefore, all I'm saying is if you hate DCT, then you should hate all other modern technology that takes the 'challenge' out of life. Otherwise, you are inconsistent. And if you take it a step further and specifically insult DCT owners, then you are a hypocrite.(because you accept other technological assistance)
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      12-02-2007, 04:43 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
Again, your point #4 is the central argument. I understand that manually shifting gives you a sense of accomplishment and pride. It does for me too.

My only point is that you should have this same attachment to hunting for your own food, rather than letting McDonalds serve it to you. But since you let McDonalds do it for you, why don't you let DCT do it for you? If you insist on manually accomplishing a shift, why don't you insist on manually catching your dinner? Its inconsistent. Just admit it. Its okay. We humans are losing all the sources of autonomous joy in our lives as machines take over. People don't want to give up their manual because its something they feel proud in doing. I don't blame them. But I just want to hear someone admit that its inconsistent to cling to manual but to give up hunting.

The only reason you don't miss hunting is because we are too young. If we lived at a time when animals began to be domesticated, we would say "man, this takes all the fun away from hunting- the challenge of the hunt." We'd be bored and dissappointed just like DCT will bore and disappoint us.

Therefore, all I'm saying is if you hate DCT, then you should hate all other modern technology that takes the 'challenge' out of life. Otherwise, you are inconsistent. And if you take it a step further and specifically insult DCT owners, then you are a hypocrite.(because you accept other technological assistance)
Life is too short, I'm off hunting! See ya'll in 4-6 hours (it's been a while since...).
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      12-02-2007, 05:41 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
You claim that what I am missing is the 'relation between fun and effort.'

I think you are missing the relation between fun and effort.
Fun is what you feel when you conquer a challenge.(manual shift)
Manual transmission is the challenge.
It takes very little effort and provides a small amount of fun.
It is a very easy way for us to feel a small sense of pride and accomplishment.

Now, lets increase the amount of effort and see what happens to fun:

For those advanced Manual drivers who heel/toe and perfectly rev match, while ripping the Nurburgring, there is ALOT of effort involved.
This LARGE amount of effort provides a LARGE sense of accomplishment and a LARGE amount of 'fun.' As it should.

As you can see, the more effort, the greater the rewarding feeling, and the more 'fun.' The bigger the challenge, the greater potential for 'fun' to be felt when conquered. Seriously think about that. Its true.

Which is why it follows logically that hunting would be extremely challenging and extremely fun. Just look at all the men who still do it as sport. Eating at McDonalds has deprived them of this challenge.

DCT deprives you of a challenge.

Why do you resist DCT but accept McDonalds?

I'm sure if you spent 4 hrs hunting and caught some game with your own bare hands, you would feel super proud of yourself and deem it fun. More effort, more fun. The greater the time investment the greater the potential reward. And do not tell me that there is no other brute challenge which would be fun to you besides shifting a manual. I am sure you would feel pride if you did other tasks by hand, but in most cases, you just let technology do it for you.

I applaud you for at least considering my point. And for the last time, it is not my intention to insult MT owners. I am yet undecided as to which I will choose. It is simply my intention to point out the hypocrisy in those who rip on DCT as a inhibitor to 'fun,' while at the same time do not decry all other 'fun' activities which have been replaced by technology.

Deep down, I think we all know insisting on a manual is rather embarrassing. Its embarrassing that we think rowing gears is something to be proud of, but we can't help it. At some point you have to realize that the sun has set on this activity, however. So set yourself on a new challenge. McDonalds has replaced the challenge of hunting, so we challenge ourselves in new ways. Let DCT push you to the next level where you can learn how to really track a car. Previously, you were too busy shifting to really conquer a good line at the Nurburgring.
Where would man be if we refused McDonalds and insisted on hunting for 4 hrs per day? Where would formula 1 drivers be if they refused paddles and still rowed their gears? Accept the new technology and conquer a new, greater challenge.

Or don't, I don't care, I just wanted to point out the inconsistency.

If people stopped getting so defensive, maybe they'd admit it.

I don't anticipate that any manual lover will swallow their pride and admit that what I'm saying is true. Everyone must maintain their fragile reputation on m3post. Not to mention their belief that rowing gears is somehow noble. It would be much too unpopular to agree with me.

Have a good day
I'm sorry, but you still don't get the point.
For me a MT is more fun than a DCT, the effort is little, so I'll go that way. Such a car is used mainly as DD, so you're point about improving race lines is neglegible for me. The hunting example still fails as analogy: Nobody hunts to get his necessary food these days. You're right that the perceived fun might be the higher, the higher the effort is. So I have to add the following criterion: Besides the above given example (that the relation between effort and perceived fun is out of proportion) there's another reason why you'd be willing to adopt new technology: When the effort itself is getting to high. No matter how much fun it would make to do anything the archaic way (hunting for example wouldn't be fun for me, but that's not a point you'd accept), you just don't have the time to make such a high effort. We can't go hunting 4 hours a day just to come back with a deer. So you're demanding that one who drives an MT car has to do things nobody else does and nobody else can do, otherwise it's inconsistent? Absurd!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
And if you take it a step further and specifically insult DCT owners, then you are a hypocrite.
I see where you're coming from. You kinda overreacted after he insulted you not being a real driver. I do understand that reaction, but then you'd only have to admit that it wasn't right to lump all MT drivers together and call 'em hypocritical. Doesn't seem to me that you'll be willing to admit that though since you're claiming that one would have to adopt every technological achievement available. Again: I don't have any aversion to DCT or SMG, I don't think it's evil or anything like that, it's just less fun for me and I like the fact that MTs are still available for performance cars like the M3, whereas the benefit of DCT is neglegible.



Best regards, south

Last edited by southlight; 12-02-2007 at 06:08 PM.
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