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      12-03-2007, 06:29 PM   #45
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One thing you need to know about these Dual Clutch systems is that though your acceleration will be better than a manual, you actually will feel that you aren't accelerating as fast. It's tricks you senses, because you don't have the dip and then trust as you change gear like you get with the manual so you don't really get much of a sensation of real power.
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      12-03-2007, 06:54 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
One thing you need to know about these Dual Clutch systems is that though your acceleration will be better than a manual, you actually will feel that you aren't accelerating as fast. It's tricks you senses, because you don't have the dip and then trust as you change gear like you get with the manual so you don't really get much of a sensation of real power.
I'm sure that's true, which is why I am having such difficulty choosing DCT with real conviction. On the street, fun and a tad slower is more important to me than the fastest and a tad quicker. I wonder if shifting alone, with DCT will provide an equal amount of fun.
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      12-03-2007, 07:09 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Bottom line is we don't know how smooth the DCT will shift. It has the ability to be super smooth or much like the E46 in S6. Depends on the software the BMW puts in and the flywheel(s) they choose.
I'd be surprised if the DCT version came with a different fly-wheel.

Does anyone have any data on the flywheel? My impression is that is is fairly insubstantial - the motor loses pretty quickly...
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      12-03-2007, 07:25 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by 13eastie View Post
Does anyone have any data on the flywheel? My impression is that is is fairly insubstantial - the motor loses pretty quickly...
I don't have the exact weight, but this is what BMW says about it:

"It is the first time that a double drive plate clutch has been used on an M3.
The clutch and the dual-mass flywheel are based on the E6x M5/M6 US (manual gearbox), but their combined weight has been reduced by 4 kg.
The contact plate and the transfer plate form a single unit with the integrated clutch driving plate.

The following changes have been made compared to the E6x M5/M6 gearbox clutch:
The weight of the clutch and the dual-mass flywheel has been reduced.
The transfer plate is hollow cast and shaped, similar to an internally ventilated brake disc. This increases heat dissipation and hence the
permissible thermal load of the clutch.

The clutch and the dual-mass flywheel are permanently connected and are balanced as a single unit. They can only be replaced in a set."

In the first diagram, "1" is the M5/M6 clutch and "2" is the E92 M3 clutch.

Also, the transmission has its own oil cooler, which the M5 does not.
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Last edited by GregW / Oregon; 12-03-2007 at 11:04 PM.
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      12-03-2007, 08:33 PM   #49
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I would expect the DCT system to use a different flywheel from the MT car.
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      12-03-2007, 08:47 PM   #50
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Good stuff Greg. Where did you locate that info?
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      12-03-2007, 08:47 PM   #51
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A bit OT

But here is an interesting FAQ on the DSG as implemented in the GTI. A very good preview of some of the features and possibly crippled features we can expect in the US.

http://www.turbofsi.com/DSG-FAQ.html
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      12-03-2007, 11:01 PM   #52
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Good stuff Greg. Where did you locate that info?
BMW Aftersales Training Information PDF. A great read if you haven't perused it: http://www.e90fanatics.com/pdf/BMW-M...nformation.pdf.
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      12-03-2007, 11:53 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
BMW Aftersales Training Information PDF. A great read if you haven't perused it: http://www.e90fanatics.com/pdf/BMW-M...nformation.pdf.
I will be perusing. Thanks!
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      12-04-2007, 09:08 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
But here is an interesting FAQ on the DSG as implemented in the GTI. A very good preview of some of the features and possibly crippled features we can expect in the US.

http://www.turbofsi.com/DSG-FAQ.html
Looks like no launch control in us?
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      12-04-2007, 11:38 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
One thing you need to know about these Dual Clutch systems is that though your acceleration will be better than a manual, you actually will feel that you aren't accelerating as fast. It's tricks you senses, because you don't have the dip and then trust as you change gear like you get with the manual so you don't really get much of a sensation of real power.
I agree with this, but remember that the DCT will probably come with a SMG similar speed control, ie. 7 different modes you can put it into. With this being true I'm sure you can manipulate the system via one of the lower modes to force the 'dip'.
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      12-04-2007, 12:11 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix 21st View Post
Looks like no launch control in us?
Well now you guys demand such long warranties that something has to give.
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      12-04-2007, 12:19 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix 21st View Post
Looks like no launch control in us?
We get launch control here on the GTI w/ DSG. When they first released it they didn't have it then they added it in. I haven't used it and I am not sure if it is the same as euro models are not.

-Adam
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      12-04-2007, 12:21 PM   #58
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Launch control is purely a software issue right? I don't believe it would add any hardware. So in theory we could get it installed?
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      12-04-2007, 12:22 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
I agree with this, but remember that the DCT will probably come with a SMG similar speed control, ie. 7 different modes you can put it into. With this being true I'm sure you can manipulate the system via one of the lower modes to force the 'dip'.
The thought of even the possibility that the M-DCT having 7 mode settings is enough to convince me I don't want it. Why can't BMW coping something from VAG that they did get right and offer only Drive, Sport and Manual. Surely that is enough for anyone.

Anything more is surely distracting from the very purpose of these cars which is pure enjoyment.
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      12-04-2007, 05:14 PM   #60
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The US version's M-DCT will probably have launch control except it will be a tamed-down version for what rest-of-the-world M-DCT's will get. Kind of like how BMW has tamed-down the SMG3's launch control for the US vs RoW in the E60 M5 and E63/64 M6.
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      12-04-2007, 08:15 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
I agree with this, but remember that the DCT will probably come with a SMG similar speed control, ie. 7 different modes you can put it into. With this being true I'm sure you can manipulate the system via one of the lower modes to force the 'dip'.
Maybe just semantics, but if that level of fidelty can be controlled (which through the engine, transmission, gas pedal, level of acceleration, the clutches and brakes all "talking" as they do, it can be) with DCT then you would want to leave out the dip and add in the hump to get the jolt feeling! This will preserve the most performance. Other transmission modes could trade off the amount of dip and hump (in the resultant acceleration curves) to offer a balance between perfomance and comfort...which leads to my next reply...

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The thought of even the possibility that the M-DCT having 7 mode settings is enough to convince me I don't want it. Why can't BMW coping something from VAG that they did get right and offer only Drive, Sport and Manual. Surely that is enough for anyone.

Anything more is surely distracting from the very purpose of these cars which is pure enjoyment.
Leave it to the luddites to criticize away... Customization is a recurring theme in the E9X M3. Lucky for you if you don't want any of this you can leave it all out. Amazing flexibility if you ask me. It is not only marketing but the inclusion of features that customers really want - customization. I'm sure you despise EDC too offering comfort, normal and track modes. Or maybe the '3 modes only' meets your person litmus test for an "acceptable" level of customization. I do see what you mean though in some way, the current SMG, with its 5+ modes in each auto and manual settings is a bit excessive. Simply having 6 total modes on the new M-DCT; comfort, normal and sport for each auto and manual modes seems like it would be plenty sufficient for all situations. With the same number of modes and same descriptions you could get by with one less control, there would only be a single three position switch! I'm sure that is not the way the BMW designers and engineers will deliver it, just my humble opinion.
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      12-04-2007, 08:23 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Leave it to the luddites to criticize away... Customization is a recurring theme in the E9X M3. Lucky for you if you don't want any of this you can leave it all out. Amazing flexibility if you ask me. It is not only marketing but the inclusion of features that customers really want - customization. I'm sure you despise EDC too offering comfort, normal and track modes. Or maybe the '3 modes only' meets your person litmus test for an "acceptable" level of customization. I do see what you mean though in some way, the current SMG, with its 5+ modes in each auto and manual settings is a bit excessive. Simply having 6 total modes on the new M-DCT; comfort, normal and sport for each auto and manual modes seems like it would be plenty sufficient for all situations. With the same number of modes and same descriptions you could get by with one less control, there would only be a single three position switch! I'm sure that is not the way the BMW designers and engineers will deliver it, just my humble opinion.
Yes, the status symbol crowd strike again.

Personally I hope they add a lot MORE options under the iDrive menus. What I would like

* Enable/Disable auto upshift at redline
* Enable/Disable auto upshift on paddle hold (hold upshift paddle down for auto shift at redline)
* Enable/Disable downshift queue
* Enable/Disable shift speed depends on engine rpm
* Enable/Disable smooth shift during lateral G load.
* Enable/Disable throttle blip on downshift
* Settable auto downshift RPM per gear
* Seperate control for shift RPM in auto mode (from shift speed)
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      12-04-2007, 08:43 PM   #63
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Don't forget:
* Enable/Disable top speed governor
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      12-04-2007, 08:45 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MArdor View Post
Don't forget:
* Enable/Disable top speed governor
I doubt that would be popular but I would love to have a valet mode for the car that restricts is to 3k rpm and the most gental shift modes.
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      12-05-2007, 02:41 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Yes, the status symbol crowd strike again.

Personally I hope they add a lot MORE options under the iDrive menus. What I would like

* Enable/Disable auto upshift at redline
* Enable/Disable auto upshift on paddle hold (hold upshift paddle down for auto shift at redline)
* Enable/Disable downshift queue
* Enable/Disable shift speed depends on engine rpm
* Enable/Disable smooth shift during lateral G load.
* Enable/Disable throttle blip on downshift
* Settable auto downshift RPM per gear
* Seperate control for shift RPM in auto mode (from shift speed)
Many great ideas from our resident track junkie and SMG fan!

I'm sure BMW is thinking about a lot of possibilities like these. But you'll have to realize the BMW is not designing the car for the 0.5% of folks like yourself (probably stating the obvious there...). I highly doubt we will get such thorough/detailed control. Maybe more things like this might be explicit in M-DCT generation II or III. They will certainly offer some features in M-DCT that won't be in regular non M DCT (which there will be plenty of, soon). I do think a bit of what you want will essentially be there. The smooth shift during lateral g loads should be a default (but doubtful). Maybe even the aggresive shift modes will still be smooth enough to really not need this. I think we'll get auto upshift at redline maybe in both auto and manual modes in one or more of the more aggressive settings. I also think we may see shift speed depends on engine rpm. Why would you want no blip on downshift? It is certainly great for lowering transmission wear as well as the more obvious benefits.
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      12-05-2007, 05:11 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Many great ideas from our resident track junkie and SMG fan!

I'm sure BMW is thinking about a lot of possibilities like these. But you'll have to realize the BMW is not designing the car for the 0.5% of folks like yourself (probably stating the obvious there...). I highly doubt we will get such thorough/detailed control. Maybe more things like this might be explicit in M-DCT generation II or III. They will certainly offer some features in M-DCT that won't be in regular non M DCT (which there will be plenty of, soon). I do think a bit of what you want will essentially be there. The smooth shift during lateral g loads should be a default (but doubtful). Maybe even the aggresive shift modes will still be smooth enough to really not need this. I think we'll get auto upshift at redline maybe in both auto and manual modes in one or more of the more aggressive settings. I also think we may see shift speed depends on engine rpm. Why would you want no blip on downshift? It is certainly great for lowering transmission wear as well as the more obvious benefits.
Thanks, I doubt most of those will make it into the car.

The blip on downshift on the current E46 only happens durring very agressive driving or on throttle downshifts. What I want to see is an option to always blip on downshift even if you are just slowing down off throttle or on the brakes. However, doing that all the time probably draws more attention than you really want.
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