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      05-05-2014, 06:48 PM   #1
jcp907
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E92 M3 ZCP in SCCA Solo F Street

Hello everyone! I am considering an E92 M3 with competition package, and to go race in FS in SCCA. Some say I am nuts, the car to have is still the Shelby GT. Or, it's way down on torque compared to the Coyote Mustang. Or, even the E46 M3 is the better choice because of weight.

I would like to hear from those that have autocrossed theirs (particularly if they have autocross the others) and want some honest debate...along with some fun, regarding whether or not the E92 ZCP can get it done nationally. Unfortunately, any discussion regarding the 15 Mustang would be pure speculation (at this point in time).

I see that an 08 (non-zcp car) did very well on Saturday last year, and took third in F Stock. Was this a fluke? An alien driver? A lack of competition? An indication of the cars abilities?

I've touched on a couple of the concerns, I'll add the biggest concern and that is a lack of camber. However, Both Mustangs must get a little worse on street tires, compared to the M3, no? And the trans/final drive/tire puts the M3 in a good place for autox at the top of 2nd gear. IRS is pretty solid.

Rich and Chuck, please offer your opinions! I am getting closer to pulling the trigger on something.

I'll finish this first post with: it rests on the driver. I understand, and am not there, yet. But, that doesn't mean I don't want to try! I'll be coming from an M5 and have improved a bit...here's a video from yesterday's autocross on Daytona Speedway's cart track:



What are your thoughts?

Last edited by jcp907; 05-05-2014 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Video link failure
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      05-06-2014, 12:20 PM   #2
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I think with the right setup and driver, it can definitely get it done in F-street. If you start off with the ZCP package, you get 9/10" wheels instead of 8.5/9.5", and now that you can change diameters legally, you'd be set to run 9x18 and 10x18 with either 275 square or 275/295 Rivals perhaps.

I would guess that to truly be at the top of the game, you'd need to swap out the ZCP EDC shocks for some trick stuff like Rich has done on his car. He'd be the one to comment on that, especially if his car originally came with EDC. Mine is still on its stock shocks (non-EDC).

You want to look for a car without sunroof, fold-down seats, and DCT mainly since all those together add up to well over 100lbs of dead weight (I realize you already know this part). It's easier to find E92s without sunroofs; for 2011 E90s with 6MT, I think something like only 180 were imported, so an E90 hunt will be harder.

You know the big question is "what happens in 2015?" If the new Mustang gets classed into F-street, and the F80/82 M3/M4 gets classed into F-street (mostly likely they would be if the 'stang is being let in), then that's a whole new house of cards. The F80 will be ~150lbs or more lighter (although larger, longer, wider) and will have a kick-ass power curve with huge area under the curve. Similarly the new Mustang is bringing in a whole new set of tools to the game too. That is probably the biggest wild card in the E9x plan imo?

Regards,
Chuck

P.S. It looks like you're doing superb in overall PAX competition in your region with the M5! Congrats! How are the 275 Rivals doing squeezed onto the 8" wheels?
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      05-06-2014, 04:46 PM   #3
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Chuck, thank you for the input! As usual, it is greatly appreciated. I am glad to hear that you think it can be done in the E92 M3. The 15 Mustang is easy to see in FS. I suppose the M4 will be there as well. It’s not a consideration, unfortunately. The 15 Mustang can be, but it isn’t legal this year. If I were to get into the E92, and it was outclassed, I’d have to sell or get another hobby The M3 can be had for ~40k if I shop right. Worst case, I'll take a small depreciation hit when I sell it if that happens.
With that as a consideration, an alternative is an E46 M3 which is arguably at the best spot on the depreciation curve. Any chance it's as competitive as the E92? I don't think so, particularly when plotting tq vs weight, RPM, and gear ratio. Then…perhaps build a Shelby clone? But, I don't fit well, physically. I might try to drive one soon...we shall see. The Coyote is a great car, but the value on the new 14s are suffering already, because of the 15. 29k might get you a Brembo/Recaro car.

Also, the wife prefers the BMW over the Ford, and doesn’t want me spending more time in the garage…nod to newer.
I'll read through Rich's post to see what shocks he went with, as well as find other setup tips/tricks.
Thank you for the complement on paxing well. I am learning a great deal and some of it is sticking, it seems. I am not trophy worthy at this point, but hopefully up to a test at a national event. I'll be at the ATL Match Tour in an under competitive 2012 Mustang GT. I can’t imagine a GT will give the Boss a run for its money. But, this will be my first time on Hoosiers...I can't wait! But, I digress.

Finally, the Rivals…perhaps they are worth 2 maybe 3 events more, over the RS3s (on concrete). But, they are still under 100 runs before they are done, I believe. Slowing on corner entry helps a bunch, as well-you already told me that though The 245 RS3s definitely respond better on turn in. How about you? How are your stretched tires? Rivals or something else?

By the way, the M5 weights 4150 with me and 4 gal of fuel and has -.9 and -.4 Camber up front...but, boy that pig moves!

Last edited by jcp907; 05-06-2014 at 05:04 PM.
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      05-06-2014, 06:48 PM   #4
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I've only run the 275/35-18 Rivals (all around, 8.5/9.5" stock width wheels) once this year, and that was at the BMW Performance Center CCA autocross. They did wonderfully, definitely an improvement over the 245s! Wear was excellent too up front. I got overall FTD at the event just beating out a nicely setup B-Street Prepared E36 M3 on BFG R1 (or R1S) tires too. They don't do PAX times else I'd have really cleaned up. For an essentially totally stock car (just Dinan front bar), this thing is pretty amazing.

My local club has issues with venues this year, so we've only had one event, and I couldn't make it to that one; I should know more in a few weeks.

I do also have a set of 10x18 Apex ARC8 wheels with new NT-01s on them. I went the 2nd PC event with those a few weeks ago, and it was sublime. Unfortunately, it was extremely windy that day (40+ gusts), so there was no timing, but they were definitely going to be faster than the Rivals. I can't wait to try them out later this year. At least I offset the cost of these a good bit of this by selling a bunch of wheels I had for the M5 (full set of essentially new OEM rears, and 7 SSR GT-2H wheels, and five Hoosier A6s).

I don't think the E46 M3 will be as competitive as the E90/92 for the reasons you outlined, and it's front suspension is not as well designed. It can get about the same level of negative camber with the pins out (-1.4 degrees or so), but I think it's camber curve under compression is not as favorable perhaps? It's also hampered by stock width front wheels stuck at 8". I'll know more in a few weeks since there is an outstanding driver I know well in my local club who just bought one, has Rivals on it (245s all around I believe), so we'll be going head to head at events soon. Should be fun!
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      05-06-2014, 07:29 PM   #5
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At the last FAST Classic Event, I set FTD in the M5. No Pax there either. I surprised everyone, including myself!

I would definitely be interested in your take on the E46.

On a separate note, do you have any E92 data that you are willing to share? The M5 can see low .7x G on concrete in accel g in 1st and .6x in 2nd. 1.18 or so for Lateral G. On the cart track in the video above, I saw .4x g accel, and 1.0x lat but it wasn't sustainable over a g for long. Any comparative data that you are willing to share would be great, if you have it!

Last edited by jcp907; 05-07-2014 at 05:04 AM.
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      05-07-2014, 07:17 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by jcp907 View Post
At the last FAST Classic Event, I set FTD in the M5. No Pax there either. I surprised everyone, including myself!

I would definitely be interested in your take on the E46.

On a separate note, do you have any E92 data that you are willing to share? The M5 can see low .7x G on concrete in accel g in 1st and .6x in 2nd. 1.18 or so for Lateral G. On the cart track in the video above, I saw .4x g accel, and 1.0x lat but it wasn't sustainable over a g for long. Any comparative data that you are willing to share would be great, if you have it!
If I had it, I'd share it. I don't have any data capture devices...guess I'm a bit old school. Not that technology is an issue for me as I'm immersed in it every day (first programmed on a DEC PDP8 back in 1972 in middle school, lol). What device are you using?
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      05-07-2014, 09:26 AM   #7
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I have a Racepak G2x. It's great at collecting data, but it appears that the software was written by a hardware guy. My friend runs the place, so we will leave it at that. Hopefully, they rewrite the software, because the hardware works well. The OBD2 collection is pricey and I don't have it-I am far enough away from needing OBD2 data to see what I am doing wrong that it hasn't been a concern yet.

If I had to buy something for Autox it would probably be Solo Storm.
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      05-07-2014, 07:28 PM   #8
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Jay,

Have you heard anything about Solo classing of the 2015 Mustang by chance? I'm curious when the SCCA will classify a new car (sadly, even though I've been autocrossing since 1976, I haven't really paid attention to how soon a new car is classified...until now, lol). The F80 M3 will be here in July, and I assume the Mustang will be here in August?
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      05-07-2014, 09:11 PM   #9
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Supposedly, if it isn't available by April 15, it misses the boat for that year. August sounds right on the Mustang. They are taking pre-orders now. No idea on the new M3...out of my league.

Honestly, I am surprised Ford missed the 14 1/2 marketing opportunity.
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      05-08-2014, 06:32 AM   #10
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Deliveries of the M3/M4 are just about to start in volume in Europe. There's a big group of M3post members who are all taking European Delivery of M3s and M4s on June 23rd. US deliveries will be starting here by July. I think the SCCA will classify them pretty quickly given a reply I got on sccaforums just now, but they won't be able to compete at Nationals this year...maybe that is what the April date refers to.
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      05-08-2014, 09:18 AM   #11
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My car did/does not have EDC. The MCS double remotes made a big difference on my car. Biggest bang came from front bar which I think doesn't need to be as stiff on street tires based on my fiddling with my RDSport bar. From my driving of the EDC cars, they are going to have the same drawbacks as the non-EDC and probably don't have enough adjustment range to get there.

My 6mt no sunroof no nav E90 weighs about 475 lbs less than your M5 with me in it and similar fuel and can fit at least as much tire, with 1.4 degrees of front camber. If you are doing well in the M5 you will clean house in an M3. E92's are weighing in around another 40lb lighter. Btw might not be true for all e9x M3's but at least my car can run pretty much empty without fuel starving

Second everything CSBM5 said. Car to have is now ZCP due to wheel downsize rule, before it was probably a wash because the 18" tire was an advantage IMP. Also recommend a 6MT car for the additional approx. 46lb weight savings. One slightly faster 1-2 shift when you are already traction limited does not make up for half a hundred pounds in autocross. But at least the DCT wright is low and central so not a huge penalty.

I highly recommend calling MCS for dampers. In the alternative if you want my dampers and don't want to blow as much money we can probably work something out as I am no longer running in "Stock" so I have no real need for them other than they are awesome even for street use. The compression adjustment and extra sprig effect from jacking up the nitrogen pressure was well worth it. I do think the stock dampers are capable of winning but obviously much less tunable for surface conditions/weather, and you give up some effective spring rate without the N2 adjustment

With the FS index I was pretty tough to beat in my region. Top PAX at the "national tour" Gateway road tour against a few fast players, which was with the AS index before the car moved to FS. It's no doubt a very competitive car for the class and the car that finished 3rd last year was no fluke and was the first year the car had been campaigned. He's on this board maybe he will chime in. I have not driven the others in Street trim so no help there. Local STL hotshoe Chris Hammond campaigned a friend's 5.0 last year and ran it in RTR. Heads up on streets we only ran once as I was usually on Hoosiers, and it was in the wet, but I beat him and his codriver pretty handily that one time. I think he ended up top 5 in RTR at Nats. Not a brag just pointing out he cars are all right on top of each other. For instance the drivability of the M3 will pay dividends in less than ideal conditions

I've run the car on streets a few times and it is very good. No worries for turning into a smoke machine. All the drivability on Hoosiers carries over just fine to streets, just lower traction. Any differences in speed potential of the current front runners are in the noise of driver skill and consistency IMO, so the smart thing to do is choose the car you want and go from there. I would want the E9x because it's the best all-round car of the bunch

Hope that helps. TL;DR: buy now!
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      05-08-2014, 05:52 PM   #12
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Chiming...

I don't have much to offer regarding the 'new' FS class and the relative performance potential of the current and forthcoming players, although the 2015 Mustang looks like it will be raising the bar for the American muscle, again. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if it ends up in another class.

Last year, we were pretty optimistic about our chances going into Nationals and felt like the results were 'per plan.' I let a class win slip away, but the car is very good. Another year of tuning and the legislated reduction in grip will make the M3 a force, IMO.

(JP, my Nationals "report" is here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=885123 )

Here is video of my daughter's final run, East course:



My final run, East course also:

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      05-08-2014, 05:54 PM   #13
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Rich, that is great to hear, thank you for sharing.

In terms of Raw time, if I drive well, I am .5 s off of the E46 M3 driven by Chi Ho and Jason H. Recently, I have been paxing within 2 seconds of top pax in the M5. Sometimes I'll be within 1 second of top pax.

I am sure I'll have more questions along the way.

Thank you,

Jay

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      05-08-2014, 05:58 PM   #14
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Mark, Thank you so much! The car looks great, and great driving! I read through that other thread and checked out the videos.
Thank you for posting!

Do you guys have any data for acceleration?

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      05-11-2014, 11:46 PM   #15
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Just picked up an '11 Competition package E90, Jay--so... lol

Honestly, I'm going to daily the car & probably only use it when I instruct for the HPDEs--think I'll leave the heavy lifting for the Evo, still...

GL w/ your search--took me months & all the way up in VA is where I need to get it this weekend!

George B.
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      05-13-2014, 02:36 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcp907 View Post
Mark, Thank you so much! The car looks great, and great driving! I read through that other thread and checked out the videos.
Thank you for posting!

Do you guys have any data for acceleration?
No data, yet. We have added Solo Storm this season, so we'll be monitoring a few things.
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      05-19-2014, 03:26 PM   #17
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So...this is the big question: is the E9x M3 classed anywhere in street this year?

This was brought to my attention at the Atlanta Match Tour where it only specifies the 6 cylinder. Or is the use of a ; enough to include the 8 cylinder?:

This is the line from F Street:
3 Series (6-cyl, including M3;
E46, E90, E91, E92, E93)
(2000-13)
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      05-19-2014, 03:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTB/ZR-1 View Post
Just picked up an '11 Competition package E90, Jay--so... lol

Honestly, I'm going to daily the car & probably only use it when I instruct for the HPDEs--think I'll leave the heavy lifting for the Evo, still...

GL w/ your search--took me months & all the way up in VA is where I need to get it this weekend!

George B.
Congratulations! I think you will need to bring it out to at least one event...soon...and let me beg for a co-drive!

I hope you love it, drive it safely!
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      05-19-2014, 06:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcp907 View Post
So...this is the big question: is the E9x M3 classed anywhere in street this year?

This was brought to my attention at the Atlanta Match Tour where it only specifies the 6 cylinder. Or is the use of a ; enough to include the 8 cylinder?:

This is the line from F Street:
3 Series (6-cyl, including M3;
E46, E90, E91, E92, E93)
(2000-13)
It's ambiguous, logically, but can have dual meanings. I'd say the intention was to move F-stock cars to F-street. A clarification from the SEB would make sense I guess to prevent some arcane protest.
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      05-19-2014, 08:25 PM   #20
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Also if says 6cyl not 6cyl only. The e9x m3 has 6 cyl. The other two are to make sure the car is still legal in case it breaks a valve spring in te middle of the event.

Also as I said via pm, anyone who protests under that deserves a wedgie but it does need to be clarified. Clarifications can be effective immediately or retroactively. All of the talk amonst Seb and sac as far as I knew was about the "new" f-street including the mustang and various m3 as the front runners with some possible dark horses. The intent clearly was not to write them out completely but rather put them all on one line to save rulebook words because we are using up all the rulebook words allotted for making rules for driving around cones in parking lots and there are only a few left
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      05-19-2014, 09:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
because we are using up all the rulebook words allotted for making rules for driving around cones in parking lots and there are only a few left
SO TRUE!!! lol

And, I'll see what I can do, Jay--mama wants to use the car the days I'm Autoxing with the Evo... lol
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      05-19-2014, 09:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Also if says 6cyl not 6cyl only. The e9x m3 has 6 cyl. The other two are to make sure the car is still legal in case it breaks a valve spring in te middle of the event.

Also as I said via pm, anyone who protests under that deserves a wedgie but it does need to be clarified. Clarifications can be effective immediately or retroactively. All of the talk amonst Seb and sac as far as I knew was about the "new" f-street including the mustang and various m3 as the front runners with some possible dark horses. The intent clearly was not to write them out completely but rather put them all on one line to save rulebook words because we are using up all the rulebook words allotted for making rules for driving around cones in parking lots and there are only a few left
Rich, thank you for taking the time to reply in both places. I appreciate your thoughts a great deal. I have to admit it was frustrating to learn this in conversation. A clarification will be asked for.

Chuck, thank you too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTB/ZR-1 View Post
SO TRUE!!! lol

And, I'll see what I can do, Jay--mama wants to use the car the days I'm Autoxing with the Evo... lol
George...they both have 4 doors...think she'll notice?
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