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      11-25-2007, 04:00 AM   #1
swamp2
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Hopping up a 335i got a lot cheaper

In doing some cruising around at the E90 part of the forum I stumbled into the "Tuners Wars". Some interesting soap opera like reading and recent happenings over there. To cut to the chase getting BIG hp and tq gains in the 335i has become a lot less expensive. The Juice Box kit offers more or less Vishnu V2 performance for $379!

+35-45 rwhp and +45-60 rwtq

And... if you are willing to run race gas ... hold on...

+65 rwhp, +98 rwtq

Price, $478.

This is already a big win for the 335i in the great M3 vs. 335i debate. If they just did not weld in that damn crippling differential...

I'm still very much in favor of the high reving concept, the fantastic V8 in the M3, the overall package including EDC and soon to come M-DCT but the price to performance gap is closing at these prices.
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      11-25-2007, 04:50 AM   #2
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Whassup here? Colonel swamp discussing 335 vs M3 is a surprise...

Best regards, south
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      11-25-2007, 04:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Whassup here? Colonel swamp discussing 335 vs M3 is a surprise...

Best regards, south
I know a bit surprising, perhaps out of character. That's OK isn't it? Like I said the entire M3 pacakge still wins for me hands down. However, I am a big fan also of performance per dollar and this box is darn INEXPENSIVE. I am also personally kind of over the whole modded out car thing.

But a 335i+

-Diff
-BBK
-Coilovers
-19"&PSC+
-Improved cooling
-Juice Box 2

=
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      11-25-2007, 05:06 AM   #4
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Comparing modded vs stock..

How about the Vishnu M3 huh!? oh snap!

You know there will be mods out for the M3 to make it even better, the base of potential is just simply higher in the M3. For those that will argue a 335i is cheaper, then remember higher performance usually costs a bit more money. Its basic diminishing returns.
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      11-25-2007, 05:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
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Comparing modded vs stock..

How about the Vishnu M3 huh!? oh snap!

You know there will be mods out for the M3 to make it even better, the base of potential is just simply higher in the M3. For those that will argue a 335i is cheaper, then remember higher performance usually costs a bit more money. Its basic diminishing returns.
No need to remind me about comparing modded vs. stock. If you dig through the forum you will find me vehemently arguing in favor of the M3 over a modded 335i (over and over again). And like I mentioned above I am still in favor of the M3. Although mod-able there will be no way to get anthing close to these increases without FI on the M3 - that is just the way things go with a fairly highly tuned normally aspirated engine.

Oh and by the way I bet Vishnu never offers a single enhancement for the M3. FI tuning is his game.
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      11-25-2007, 05:20 AM   #6
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Oh I know most of that. And while I know you still want a M3 at heart... other readers might not. So I thought I'd drop alittle knowledge on them about it.

As for Vishnu not making a M3 software package, eh I'm sure your right. But someone will. And I get a feeling that this new V8 isn't quite as strung out stock as the e46 I-6 was, so we may be in for some surprises.
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      11-25-2007, 05:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
Oh I know most of that. And while I know you still want a M3 at heart... other readers might not. So I thought I'd drop alittle knowledge on them about it.

As for Vishnu not making a M3 software package, eh I'm sure your right. But someone will. And I get a feeling that this new V8 isn't quite as strung out stock as the e46 I-6 was, so we may be in for some surprises.
in short time I am sure that a combination of chip, exaust, filters will give to the M3 at least 30 hp...It will be not so expencive too...So....
450 hp not too bad....
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      11-25-2007, 05:28 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I know a bit surprising, perhaps out of character. That's OK isn't it? Like I said the entire M3 pacakge still wins for me hands down. However, I am a big fan also of performance per dollar and this box is darn INEXPENSIVE. I am also personally kind of over the whole modded out car thing.

But a 335i+

-Diff
-BBK
-Coilovers
-19"&PSC+
-Improved cooling
-Juice Box 2

=
That's OK!
But these cars addict totally different driver types IMHO. There are 335 drivers and M3 drivers out there. Personally I would prefer an NA engine all the time even if it had less power. It's not about straight line performance, it's rather about the feeling (and sound) you get from an NA. So we're now discussing that again, but you started it.


Best regards, south
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      11-25-2007, 05:46 AM   #9
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If size doesn't matter the 135i will provide a even better performance for the buck. The car is actually quite nice in person.
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      11-25-2007, 06:08 AM   #10
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As you know I have driven lots of Audis both FI and N/A so please let me give my opinion on the merits of both and why what South says is correct in the majority of cases and also how they have becoming a little blurred.

Previously turbo engine's power/torque was very much like a light switch, either on or off with no in between and N/A engines have always provided this delicacy in throttle control but at the expense of an real torque below 2000rpms of the peak power. Because of this you were either in one camp or the other, the FI camp didn't really care about handling delicacy and throttle control, it was all about power and acceleration, where as the N/A camp was the total opposite and this was always the M cars idea of what things should be.

But now things are getting more difficult to argue for or against either concept as now-a-days instead of large turbos providing the punch in a small engine it's the larger engine with the tiny turbos which are only really providing a helping hand to boost the power but with little noticeable lag. And as for the N/A engines, well just look at the M cars now, with the exception of the M Coupe/Roadster all the others are V8 and V10 with capacities to match and in the case of the M3 we have an engine which instead of no torque below 2000rpms of the peak power we have an engine with provides 85% of it's peak torque over 6500rpm range.

Like I said turbos have been a stable diet of mine up until the S5 which you will well know is a large N/A engine much like the M3 has and after sampling it for a few months and also test driving the 335i it's very harder to argue a case for one or the other. In normal driving both do the same things equally well and both feel equally strong but how this will change when the 335i engine is tuned is a different matter, I reckon it will revert back to more like the old days of a bit more turbo lag or in the same way when you tune the M3v8 it will surely rise it peak torque level whilst narrow the band and lose a lot of it extra drive-ability.

Needless to say I reckon things should be left at the factory intended and either save up for the real deal that is the M3 or be content with what the 335i is providing.
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      11-25-2007, 06:13 AM   #11
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Time to debate Smart ForTwo + £40,000 in mods vs M3 now, 335 vs M3 has been done to death and the Smart argument is just as worthwhile.
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      11-25-2007, 10:55 AM   #12
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The 335i is an awesome awesome car and will go down in history as one of the best peformance BMW's ever made.

My problem is that if I bought a 335i I would want reliable warrantied performance upgrades so I can get the same company approved performance I get from the M3. Both Dinan and Performance BMW have been rumored to be coming out with software upgrades that will not break the warranty.

I would it lower it on compliant coilovers like KW V2

I would want something like NEEZ wheels in 19"

And then to make it look aggresive I would have to have the Aero Kit front end and sport rear valance. Along with the rear valance I would need a new exhaust, something like what Hartage makes.

Warrantied software upgrade= 1500-3000
New Suspension=2000-3000
New NEEZ/BBS/IForged= 4000-6000
Exterior upgrades including mounting and painting=3000-4000

Total for my mods-10,500 to 16,000

Based on this I would still choose the M3 simply because the price to make the 335i that I would want is not that much cheaper than buying a reliable M performance car from the factory and the peace of mind that comes with knowing that if something should go wrong the factory will fix it. Not to mention the ride and driveability I have sacraficed by modifying. I say this based on years of modding my current E36 M3.

Just my preference.....

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      11-25-2007, 01:00 PM   #13
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My place in these arguments is to chime in and remind everyone that mods add cost but get nothing back if you sell the car. Thus, the total cost of owning a 335 vs M3 if you sell either in a few years may not be much different and certainly may not be worth the headache, warranty issues, etc.

Unless you are lucky, mods have ~zero~ resale value.
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      11-25-2007, 04:05 PM   #14
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It is funny to hear yourself echoed throught the hallways of M3post.com. I know no one is quoting me - it is simply that most of us share the exact same opinions on the modded vs. stock debate and especally the modded 335i vs. stock M3. Like the title of my post said I simply wanted to point out that "hopping up a 335i got a lot cheaper".

Jason: I am right there with you. Much of my opinion in this "debate" is based on modding my E36 M3 as well! You could definitely go a bit more "sleeper" though and get those $ figures down quite a bit ( advocate ... )

As far as modding the M3 this will surely be right around the corner. The car is way less pushed to its envelope compared with the E46 M3. With software, intake modifications, removal of the OEM charcoal filter, raising the redline a bit and exhaust mods I bet there is an easy 35 hp to be had. But again nothing like modding a FI car.
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      11-25-2007, 04:10 PM   #15
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Hehe yup, 350 dollars under my hood and I broke 13s. 12.8@109mph in my Juice box stage 2 335i.
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      11-25-2007, 04:13 PM   #16
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To me it seems that you're just opening yourself a backdoor. Is that to believe, Sw?

Best regards, south
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      11-25-2007, 04:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It is funny to hear yourself echoed throught the hallways of M3post.com. I know no one is quoting me - it is simply that most of us share the exact same opinions on the modded vs. stock debate and especally the modded 335i vs. stock M3. Like the title of my post said I simply wanted to point out that "hopping up a 335i got a lot cheaper".

Jason: I am right there with you. Much of my opinion in this "debate" is based on modding my E36 M3 as well! You could definitely go a bit more "sleeper" though and get those $ figures down quite a bit ( advocate ... )

As far as modding the M3 this will surely be right around the corner. The car is way less pushed to its envelope compared with the E46 M3. With software, intake modifications, removal of the OEM charcoal filter, raising the redline a bit and exhaust mods I bet there is an easy 35 hp to be had. But again nothing like modding a FI car.
Swamp,

I am sure you have had some of the same heart ache I have had with modifications.

Modding is fun and having a personalized BMW is awesome but the price you pay as an owner is high. The hardest thing for me would be possibly giving up the 4yr warranty. I think you have to approach upgrades like Proceed with the understanding that you may be giving up your warranty should an engine problem arise, despite getting caught with it or not.

Other mods like aftermarket exhaust systems and aftermarket suspension systems give up some basic civility. Dont get me wrong, I love my UUC TSE on my E36 M3 but I understand that probably most normal people dont understand why my car is so loud.

When it comes to aftermarket suspension setups, even if the aftermarket coilovers or springs are very compliant and offer a good ride, things like speed bumps and steep driveways all of a sudden become an issue.

Finally, like I said before, my 335 would have to be unique, both in performance and in visual appeal. I am not sure if I am ready to go down the modding addict rabbit hole again with another BMW. I will be honest and say that I am still on the fence. I could easily see myself saving 15-20K by buying a 335i through Mil Sales and then going straight to Proceed, NEEZ, and KW. But, I am really hoping that the new M3 is going to be a car that I really enjoy in stock form for a long time.

I know, admitting denial is the first step

Jason
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      11-25-2007, 08:09 PM   #18
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Total for my mods-10,500 to 16,000

Jason
A well optioned 335i ~ 50k + 10.5 to 16k will give you base price of a vanilla M3. 60 to 66k. Overall, 335i is still a better bang for the buck. Which one you pick is really buyer's preference and check book. Are you selling your e36 m3? I heard that is one of the best handling m3 out there. :-)
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      11-25-2007, 09:31 PM   #19
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      11-25-2007, 11:44 PM   #20
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A well optioned 335i ~ 50k + 10.5 to 16k will give you base price of a vanilla M3. 60 to 66k. Overall, 335i is still a better bang for the buck. Which one you pick is really buyer's preference and check book. Are you selling your e36 m3? I heard that is one of the best handling m3 out there. :-)
Nope keeping my E36 as a DD even though it will get less miles with two cars in the stable...

The 335i is better bang for the buck in terms of HP gains etc... But its the peace of mind, the intact warranty, and the reliability that I am paying extra for with the M3.

I have over 11 years of modding in my blood now and I know this. Sacrafices are made in the name of aftermarket performance. Every mod has a long term effect even if very small. I dont plan on taking my next car down that road, I am tired of it.

So I will take my performance from the boys I trust and I am willing to pay extra for that peace of mind!

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      11-26-2007, 12:37 AM   #21
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Quote:
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To me it seems that you're just opening yourself a backdoor. Is that to believe, Sw?

Best regards, south
You are pretty clever. I can't say I am not thinking about it a bit but I really do stand by all of my past arguments against extensive modding: reliability, hassle, loss of civility, loss of dollars spent, possible loss of warranty, loss of comfort, time spent under you car, performance per dollar, etc. Thinking about it certainly does not mean I am going to do it

BMW has made this route pretty tempting with the price level of the 335i. It is after all it is a damn fine car. It is the starting point to build the E92 M3!

However, I seriously doubt I will go down this route. There is no substitute for an M, period. No substitute for a V8 screaming at 8400 rpm, nor for M-DCT. I am pretty darn well set on getting the M. How about yourself, you have continually avoided my questions about what you are waiting for - the E90 M3 or E92 M3 perhaps? Or are you already driving one?
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      11-26-2007, 12:39 AM   #22
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When modding my STi I have always taken great pains to research the very best parts available, with their own warranties, and either install them myself or have them installed by techs who are experienced working with Subarus. I pride myself on having an STi that performs well yet looks like it came this way from the factory. However, I can honestly admit that nearly all of the modifications I have made to my car have caused me some form of grief from one time to another. I enjoy the act of personalizing my car, and have for the last 3 years I've owned it. However, I believe that while the 335i may offer more performance 'bang for buck' than the M3, in the long run it will also most likely excel in the 'headaches per mod' quotient.
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