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      11-25-2007, 07:00 PM   #23
Garissimo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
Wow. I think that article is just pure BS. They clearly are discussing non issues with the car.


Arguing that it's interior isn't much different than a normal 3 series...? That is how every M3 is, we all know that. The M3 always runs a low profile compared to a normal 3, thats just how it has always been. I've seen other articles say that it doesn't look much different than a normal 3, I lawl inside when i hear statements like this. They try to knock it on a intentional design characteristic.
I understand your point. The M3 has never been about making an interior design fashion statement. The problem is that the competition (Audi S5/RS4, Mercedes C63) has taken cabin decor up a notch. In the price arena the M3 is competing in, buyers want something special.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
First time I've ever seen a journalist burn a car for being "too" capable on roads since its limits can never be met. If anything I think that makes the car even more worth having. Not to mention that alot of other sources have said that the M3 is VERY easy to drive and have fun with.

I'm sorry but that article is pure rubbish.
This bit I couldn't agree with more. Would the M3 be more of a driver's car if BMW equipped it with 13" wheels from a Prius? Its limits would certainly be more 'accessible'.
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      11-25-2007, 07:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by carnuts3 View Post
Putting the aesthetics aside (BS in my opinion), they seem to be complaining about what some others are saying regarding the driving experience - that the new M3 is less involving and fun than the RS4....because of the disappointing steering feel and the fact that to really enjoy this car you have to drive it in the upper rev bands -and- up to 100 mph, the M3 feels pretty much like a 335. Regarding their expectations, this is disappointing for what an M3 is supposed to deliver...... only my interpretation.

Even with this said, the M3 is still on my shopping list along with a couple of its competitors.
All, without exception, of the reviews I have seen and read say that the M3 is far more involving to drive than the RS4 and is the definate drivers car. Who are the 'others' you refer to?

As for the interiors, I went to test drive an RS4 and, having had Audis for 6+years, my own reaction was 'Its just like any A4'. Lets face it, its a great interior but it has little to differentiate it from a specced 3.2 A4 other than the seats and, once Im sat in it, I cant see them. Thats ok because the A4 interior is very good, but precisely the same has been applied to the 3 coupe/M3. For me as a first time BMW owner, the interior is exciting and new, an RS4 would have been same old, same old purely because Ive been staring at 4 rings for years now and im bored.
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      11-26-2007, 04:22 AM   #25
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Autoexpress been against the new M3 since the first testdrives. In fact its not the first BMW Autoexpress bash. EVO longterm test is more positive than Autoexpress.

You can't be loved by everyone so what if there is anyone that doesnt like the new M3 - there are many people out there who love the new M3.
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      11-26-2007, 07:32 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leg View Post
All, without exception, of the reviews I have seen and read say that the M3 is far more involving to drive than the RS4 and is the definate drivers car. Who are the 'others' you refer to?

As for the interiors, I went to test drive an RS4 and, having had Audis for 6+years, my own reaction was 'Its just like any A4'. Lets face it, its a great interior but it has little to differentiate it from a specced 3.2 A4 other than the seats and, once Im sat in it, I cant see them. Thats ok because the A4 interior is very good, but precisely the same has been applied to the 3 coupe/M3. For me as a first time BMW owner, the interior is exciting and new, an RS4 would have been same old, same old purely because Ive been staring at 4 rings for years now and im bored.
Very true, the interior of the RS4 is much the same as the other A4s, the steering wheel is different (same with the M3), you get a different choice of trims (same as the M3), it gets different seats (just like the M3). The only thing they should be complaining about is the actual design of the interior which isn't as fancy or feel as well put together as the RS4 (which it is but doesn't feel it).

I would say that the A5 and the new A4 has made more of a statement in design than the 3 series has and whether you like the multi buttons at the gear lever or not there is no denying it is a very classy interior which really puts the current 3 series in the shade.
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      11-26-2007, 11:43 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Very true, the interior of the RS4 is much the same as the other A4s, the steering wheel is different (same with the M3), you get a different choice of trims (same as the M3), it gets different seats (just like the M3). The only thing they should be complaining about is the actual design of the interior which isn't as fancy or feel as well put together as the RS4 (which it is but doesn't feel it).
In the US, the RS4 gets the same wheel & seats as the S4. Sad but true.

-Adam
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      11-26-2007, 02:44 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Smoltz View Post
In the US, the RS4 gets the same wheel & seats as the S4. Sad but true.

-Adam

Well that makes things even more equal to the M3. I can understand the steering wheel and seats, it's a safety concern which must center around the air bags. I'm right in thinking that in some states you don't even have to wear a seat belt and because of this the cars have to have a full accompaniment of air bags in the wheel and seats etc. Maybe in European spec the car doesn't meet the standard.
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      11-26-2007, 09:26 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post

P.S.

I have read the EVO long term review and so far the M3 is proving very good.
Where did you get that from?

John Barker has mentioned that he's not convinced by the car yet. The design, the steering, the interior, and less importantly, the color have all yet to convince him that his M3 is truly "better" than the RS4 it replaced.

Let's see if the M3 gets under his skin the same way the RS4 did...
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      11-26-2007, 09:31 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
Wow. I think that article is just pure BS. They clearly are discussing non issues with the car.


Arguing that it's interior isn't much different than a normal 3 series...? That is how every M3 is, we all know that. The M3 always runs a low profile compared to a normal 3, thats just how it has always been. I've seen other articles say that it doesn't look much different than a normal 3, I lawl inside when i hear statements like this. They try to knock it on a intentional design characteristic.


First time I've ever seen a journalist burn a car for being "too" capable on roads since its limits can never be met. If anything I think that makes the car even more worth having. Not to mention that alot of other sources have said that the M3 is VERY easy to drive and have fun with.

I'm sorry but that article is pure rubbish.
I read that the author feels that the car is simply not engaging enough unless you're pretty close to its limits. However, the limit is not accessible on public roads unless you want to end up in jail. So, the questions they're asking is why, in their opinion, is the car not "dazzling" unless you're close to its limits, right?

I think it is a fair question but one that shouldn't be answered with, "don't worry, the CSL will fix it" messaging that seems to be omnipresent in every review or discussion of the new M3.
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      11-26-2007, 09:37 PM   #31
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After reading the discussion I think this article is just negative to sell copies. Bad news is more appealing than the same old its a M3 and its great. Plus, car enthusiasts that don't always follow BMW closely will see BMW being trumped via journalistic hot air and decide to buy it to read about how BMW "failed" with the new M3.

Sometimes, I really hate journalism. I wish every article came with a Bias bar-meter that you could slide up to full and down to zero to cut through all the fluff.
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      11-26-2007, 09:42 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
I understand your point. The M3 has never been about making an interior design fashion statement. The problem is that the competition (Audi S5/RS4, Mercedes C63) has taken cabin decor up a notch. In the price arena the M3 is competing in, buyers want something special.
This seems to be the popular opinion. However, I just don't see it. I have a few gripes about the BMW interior but it is simply from comparing it to my current car and the knacks that I have formed habit towards. Maybe I need to go spend some more time at my local Audi dealer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuvaD View Post
I read that the author feels that the car is simply not engaging enough unless you're pretty close to its limits. However, the limit is not accessible on public roads unless you want to end up in jail. So, the questions they're asking is why, in their opinion, is the car not "dazzling" unless you're close to its limits, right?
No car will be dazzling when you are driving the speed limit. Comfortable? Maybe. Heart pumping, hair standing on end, enthralling? Absolutely not. Just because the M3's limit may be higher than most should not be interpreted by the buyer that it is inferior because you won't get the thrills at 55 mph. (Just red line it in 1st!!!!)

I'm sure the RS4 would be equally as dull under such conditions.
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      11-27-2007, 05:44 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
After reading the discussion I think this article is just negative to sell copies. Bad news is more appealing than the same old its a M3 and its great. Plus, car enthusiasts that don't always follow BMW closely will see BMW being trumped via journalistic hot air and decide to buy it to read about how BMW "failed" with the new M3.

Sometimes, I really hate journalism. I wish every article came with a Bias bar-meter that you could slide up to full and down to zero to cut through all the fluff.
It's annoying to hear that what you have your heart set on is not universally liked but you might be mistaking the author's opinion for bias. The bottom line is that the author has spent more time with the car, over more roads, and in a wider number of conditions than you...and he doesn't connect with the car. His opinion with no real evidence of bias because that publication regularly gushes praise on BMW.

Futhermore, Autocar and Autoexpress sales are predominatley driven by their News, Road Tests, and Group Road Tests. Not their Long Term Tests!
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      11-27-2007, 05:56 PM   #34
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Opinion and bias go hand in hand and the fact that their long term tests never bring forth much sales of the magazine isn't cause for them to just let it be boring. If anything, they would want to create as many interesting and potentially causing reasons for you to buy the magazine as possible. The fact that this particular column isn't a big selling point may prove my point further in that they are getting an unusual bonus in sales by failing the brand new M3. In either case, opinion is based on bias and bias is in everyone. Since this brand of publication rarely praises BMW then it would seem to me that their bias in the topic is strongly negative.

As for my aching heart because the M3 isn't lord of the dance, well I can respect people's opinions to not like the car. I just run into trouble when they start carrying those opinions, biased in their nature, into a journalistic publication of reasonable integrity.

I'm also not so distraught from this arbitrary review though that I feel compelled to contact their offices and correct their nearsightedness. If I took the time to correct all of the publicly displayed misconceptions in the world there would be no time left over for mine own. Just as the periodicals writer, I too have my own bias on the subject but I tend to bolster it with facts and reasonable cause based on my experiences. I'm also not trying to sell you a magazine, nor do I require $8.99 for you to read my opinions.
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      11-28-2007, 05:12 PM   #35
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Maybe I'm missing something, but didn't the people who wrote this review actually drive the M3? And if they did, and if they gave their honest assessment of the car from their point of view (hard to prove otherwise), then shouldn't they get the benefit of the doubt and not a discrediting and a bashing because they state a minority opinion on this board? Everyone can't possibly love this car; and every car has its short comings, including the new M3. I welcome the critical reviews as well as the ones that lavish praise. This gives me a better insight into the car. Anyway, regardless of what people say about the new M3, it is certainly on my short list. And I look forward to a test drive so that I can form my own opinion. What fun!
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      11-28-2007, 06:08 PM   #36
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I think the reason why some reviews aren't giving the M3 the credit it deserves is that they aren't driving the car to it full abilities. The only UK mag which really is starting to fall head over heels for the M3 is EVO, but even they at the start weren't 100% convinced. It took the EvoCarOfTheYear Awards where they put the car up against it's piers that the M3 finally started to sheen, only when they thrashed the thing on the track did it show it's true M3 colours.

Unlike previous versions of the breed which wore their hearts on their sleeve, you knew what it was right from the start. The new car is more complex-ed, it's a better everyday drive compared to before, the steering offers different setting from light to heavy likewise the suspension. If the car is driven below 7/10th then it isn't as rewarding as the E46 M3 to some but that makes it a less tiresome car when you don't want it to be and all you have to do is pin the throttle to the floor on a quiet road and you will find a better driver's car than any M3 prior with exception of the E30 & CSL of course.
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      11-28-2007, 06:12 PM   #37
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First of all, it doesn't matter what others think of the car you end up buying. So lets put the 'bias' and 'they love Audi' aside.

I think they are idiots in the first place for having such high expectations of the M3. I've driven a 318i, 325i, and 335i (manuals except the 325i which was auto) extensively, and they supremely disappoint in terms of visceral driving feel and excitement.

The steering in almost any Honda (current or previous generation) feels more natural and pleasing than any of the current BMW's I've driven (including a 2006 Z4 I own).

With that said, if I were in the market for a grand tourer, the BMW M3 would be on the top of my list without question.
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      11-28-2007, 06:15 PM   #38
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There is not a single objective measure in this "article". The whole thing is just opinion. And, in the absence of any facts, opinion is just a nice word for subjective BS.

To compare a car only to one's "hopes" is just a stupid way to produce a review. Comparing the car to one's own hypothetical best estimates can only go one way. They don't even say what they were "hoping" for. "I hoped my car would feel like a Ferrari, but it doesn't, therefore the M3 is lame"?

To qualify a comment with a phrase like "Engine aside" is ridiculous. This is the car's best and most important feature.

Quote:
Flying capability aside, Superman's costume looks gay.
See what I mean?

I can't believe I'm reading more comments about the seat height... this is just nonsense. There is no problem at all with this and the seats are wonderful.

The fact is that this car significantly outperforms its predecessors and the rest of the 3-er cohort. It matches the current 911C2S and beats the RS4 around the 'Ring. It makes everyday driving a pleasure while still being very practical.

If you had ten cars, this is the one you would probably use most often. Everyone knows by now that the steering is different to most sports cars and it's not to everyone's liking, but as an all-rounder, it's a very good car.

It all boils down to unrealistic expectations. All told, it's the best generally available 3 series made to date. And that is enough.
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      11-28-2007, 07:44 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13eastie View Post
Quote:
Flying capability aside, Superman's costume looks gay.
Perfect. A nice post and excellent quote/example!
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      11-28-2007, 07:47 PM   #40
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Sport vs. GT

Quote:
Originally Posted by SP330 View Post
if I were in the market for a grand tourer, the BMW M3 would be on the top of my list without question.
It may be appropriate to note that the M3 has continually become more and more of a GT over the years and less a homologation racer. However, to think the car is strictly a GT, not track capable, not brutally fast and not with huge lateral grip (all better than any previous gen. M3 or 911!) is to deluding yourself. BMW, IMHO, has very nicely blurred the lines between sports car and GT with the new M3.
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      11-28-2007, 07:57 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I think the reason why some reviews aren't giving the M3 the credit it deserves is that they aren't driving the car to it full abilities. The only UK mag which really is starting to fall head over heels for the M3 is EVO, but even they at the start weren't 100% convinced. It took the EvoCarOfTheYear Awards where they put the car up against it's piers that the M3 finally started to sheen, only when they thrashed the thing on the track did it show it's true M3 colours.
The faster a car is, the fewer driver there are that can really exploit its limits. This results in some very good cars getting underrated because they are not easy enough to drive while the point and shoot cars get great marks.
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      11-29-2007, 10:20 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by mesier1111 View Post
Perfect, I hope we get more reviews like this, so the waiting lists shrink and they sell less M3s, so mine will then be more unique.
thats good enough for me...
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      11-29-2007, 01:28 PM   #43
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The faster a car is, the fewer driver there are that can really exploit its limits. This results in some very good cars getting underrated because they are not easy enough to drive while the point and shoot cars get great marks.
I agree. The concern I have about the M3, based on the reviews, is that I'm not sure I'm going to get enough enjoyment day-to-day vs the competition. If I have to drive this car in the upper rev bands to really enjoy and appreciate it, I wouldn't be interested. I'm looking for a great daily driver that I can enjoy most of the time on the local roads within the speed limit - and occasionally blow off a wise guy at a traffic light. A test drive is the only way to go before buying, I guess.
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      11-29-2007, 02:00 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by enigma View Post
The faster a car is, the fewer driver there are that can really exploit its limits. This results in some very good cars getting underrated because they are not easy enough to drive while the point and shoot cars get great marks.
That one opinion and it's a good one, but here's how I see it and you can see if you agree with me on this.

The high-performance saloon/coupe cars are indeed getting faster, much faster in fact but the problems is the type of people who are looking to purchase such motors, the upwardly mobile persons with families, ie. guys like me - early forties with young kids who want a fast car but don't necessarily have the ability to drive such a car with so much performance. So what do the manufacturers do, do they make the car to be the ultimate handling machine with cat like reflectes and a limit which when breached will kill you if your not quick enough, of course not they made a car which telegraphs it's limits with mild understeer and dull the steering response so that Joe average (me) will not put her off the road within the first mile of really opening up the throttle.

While all of this is great for the (me) people of the world it's not the kind of excitement that road tester expect from something with an M badge on it's nose. This downward marking and ratings started with the new M5 and M6 and has continued with the new M3. The problem is that the greatness is still there only it's limits are so high as mere mortals can't reach them and rate the car as no better than a 335i etc. This is the case with this Autoexpress review, just normal guys that happen to be journalists who are writing reviews on specialist motors and don't have the abilities to judge.

I say best leave such cars to the likes of EVO who clearly know how cars like this should be driven.
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