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      03-13-2014, 09:30 PM   #45
Petros
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Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
It's hard to classify cars, especially as the overall selection of production performance cars has multiplied substantially in the past couple of decades. There are subjective measures like aesthetics and brand cache, and then there are objective measures like performance specs, versatility/usability (or lack thereof), costs, dimensions, and construction methods.

Here's my take on some of these terms, many of which are interchangeable or can be used as umbrella labels.

Sports Car: purpose-built; two-door; lightweight construction and agility are a priority; "fun" to drive; visceral; typically FR setup.
(e.g. Elise/Exige, S2000, 370Z, Corvette, majority of 911 variants)

Sports Coupe: two doors, of course; typically based on an existing chassis that shares a sedan variant; performance intentions; accessible driving dynamics; not usually track capable from the showroom floor; heavier relative to sportscars; rarely stripped down and is daily driveable.
(e.g. M3, CTS-V, RS5, etc.)

Super Car: a shared concept with the sports car category, but with increased performance metrics that are typically headline-grabbing and in the top percentile of road going cars; can be based on existing sports car chassis, but more common to have a bespoke chassis with expensive production costs, a wide footprint, and a particularly low roofline; usually (but not restricted to) MR, FMR, M4, RR, and R4 layouts; hard to categorize due to constantly shifting performance bars being set.
(e.g. ZR1, LF-A, 911 GT3, SLS, 458, GTR, Lamborghini range, etc.)

Hyper Car: state of the art tech; completely standout aesthetics; pushes existing powertrain/drivetrain/chassis limits for the given period; absurd price tag.
(e.g. TheTheFerrari, Enzo, 918, CGT, P1, F1, etc.)

Exotic: umbrella term; applied to cars almost always using a mid-engined setup; rarity is a requisite; performance doesn't have to be record breaking, but supercar levels are typically expected
(e.g. Lambos, Ferraris, high-end Astons, Paganis, etc.)

GT: the goal is versatility; DD qualities mixed with high levels of performance; usually longer wheelbase; relatively medium in weight; insulated; born for the streets and not for the tracks, although they usually can be track-capable.
(e.g. M6, F-Type, 911TT, SL AMGs, etc.)

There's a lot of overlap to be had with the multiple labels we have here. You can take a car like the SLS or 991 and check off a few boxes here because their performance and capability envelopes are so vast.
Excellent post. However, I'm not clear on the difference between a GT and a sports coupe. The way you describe them it seems they are basically the same thing. And I would also consider a 911 Turbo more of a supercar than a GT. By the way, regarding exotics, I feel you should also include a prohibitively high price tag as a requisite. I don't think simply being rare by itself is enough to be considered an exotic.
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      03-13-2014, 09:41 PM   #46
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The blackwood never sold because nobody wanted it. It is rare due to low demand. Lotus hand builds their cars (explaining the terrible build quality) which they are rare/limited. .
Ironic you say that about the blackwood. I can say the same about a Lotus too. Yes being handbuilt is a factor in them being rare. But let's be honest, even if they were mass produced in an assembly line there still wouldn't be too many of them on the roads either. They are niche cars that appeal to a very small segment of the market, a select few car buyers who want such a thing. They are brutal to ride in on the road and are very awful as daily drivers. A claustrophobic spartan interior, a door sill that makes entry and exit almost impossible, lack of room for any passengers or cargo, a very noisy ride, etc. Not to mention that they are very difficult to drive in rain let alone snow and ice. A Lotus is barely any more practical than an Ariel Atom.
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      03-13-2014, 09:41 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros
Quote:
Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
It's hard to classify cars, especially as the overall selection of production performance cars has multiplied substantially in the past couple of decades. There are subjective measures like aesthetics and brand cache, and then there are objective measures like performance specs, versatility/usability (or lack thereof), costs, dimensions, and construction methods.

Here's my take on some of these terms, many of which are interchangeable or can be used as umbrella labels.

Sports Car: purpose-built; two-door; lightweight construction and agility are a priority; "fun" to drive; visceral; typically FR setup.
(e.g. Elise/Exige, S2000, 370Z, Corvette, majority of 911 variants)

Sports Coupe: two doors, of course; typically based on an existing chassis that shares a sedan variant; performance intentions; accessible driving dynamics; not usually track capable from the showroom floor; heavier relative to sportscars; rarely stripped down and is daily driveable.
(e.g. M3, CTS-V, RS5, etc.)

Super Car: a shared concept with the sports car category, but with increased performance metrics that are typically headline-grabbing and in the top percentile of road going cars; can be based on existing sports car chassis, but more common to have a bespoke chassis with expensive production costs, a wide footprint, and a particularly low roofline; usually (but not restricted to) MR, FMR, M4, RR, and R4 layouts; hard to categorize due to constantly shifting performance bars being set.
(e.g. ZR1, LF-A, 911 GT3, SLS, 458, GTR, Lamborghini range, etc.)

Hyper Car: state of the art tech; completely standout aesthetics; pushes existing powertrain/drivetrain/chassis limits for the given period; absurd price tag.
(e.g. TheTheFerrari, Enzo, 918, CGT, P1, F1, etc.)

Exotic: umbrella term; applied to cars almost always using a mid-engined setup; rarity is a requisite; performance doesn't have to be record breaking, but supercar levels are typically expected
(e.g. Lambos, Ferraris, high-end Astons, Paganis, etc.)

GT: the goal is versatility; DD qualities mixed with high levels of performance; usually longer wheelbase; relatively medium in weight; insulated; born for the streets and not for the tracks, although they usually can be track-capable.
(e.g. M6, F-Type, 911TT, SL AMGs, etc.)

There's a lot of overlap to be had with the multiple labels we have here. You can take a car like the SLS or 991 and check off a few boxes here because their performance and capability envelopes are so vast.
Excellent post. However, I'm not clear on the difference between a GT and a sports coupe. The way you describe them it seems they are basically the same thing. And I would also consider a 911 Turbo more of a supercar than a GT. By the way, regarding exotics, I feel you should also include a prohibitively high price tag as a requisite. I don't think simply being rare by itself is enough to be considered an exotic.
Good pointers, and thank you! I'm going to edit the wording to include what you mentioned.

The main difference between a GT and a sports coupe (which can overlap as it's really subjective in the end), at least from my point of view, is that a sports coupe usually has a base chassis that's shared with lesser models and other variants of the same platform. GTs usually carry a higher price tag and are bespoke in their making. A DB9, SL, XK, Granturismo, and M6 can be considered GTs. They have long wheelbases with high levels of luxury, are on the heavier side, yet pack a punch when you need it. A sports coupe would be like the models listed: more focus on aggressive chassis tuning and specs, but still comfortable, accessible, and daily driveable.
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      03-13-2014, 09:48 PM   #48
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The 911 Turbo is considered by many as one best GT cars available. I definitely would put it in the GT category. Interesting how one platform (911), can spawn a sports car, GT, and super car (C2S, Turbo, GT3).
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      03-14-2014, 07:23 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Ironic you say that about the blackwood. I can say the same about a Lotus too. Yes being handbuilt is a factor in them being rare. But let's be honest, even if they were mass produced in an assembly line there still wouldn't be too many of them on the roads either. They are niche cars that appeal to a very small segment of the market, a select few car buyers who want such a thing. They are brutal to ride in on the road and are very awful as daily drivers. A claustrophobic spartan interior, a door sill that makes entry and exit almost impossible, lack of room for any passengers or cargo, a very noisy ride, etc. Not to mention that they are very difficult to drive in rain let alone snow and ice. A Lotus is barely any more practical than an Ariel Atom.
The fundamental flaw in your arguement is that there are Lincoln dealerships all over the place. A Lotus dealer is hard to come by. There are 38 in the United States compared to the current 325 (reduced from 500+ in 2011) for Lincoln and they've only been on sale for nine years, stateside. Most people don't even know what a Lotus is, in much the same way that they don't know what a Pagani or McLaren is.

You don't need to keep reiterating all of the shortcomings of a Lotus. I've owned one and am fully aware. The part that's laughable is that the Lincoln was actually very practical and still didn't sell. And at what point did practicality become a prerequisite for an exotic?

My final point comes from my actual experience behind the wheel of the car. Having driven one around for two years, I will tell you that my car was gawked at constantly and I do not live in a poor area. Every time I parked within eyeshot of people, they would almost always approach me with questions and ask to take pictures of it in the exact same way they would if it had a bull or a prancing horse on the front of it. That ain't happening in a Lincoln Blackwood. Do you think they deleted those pictures when they went home and looked up how much the car cost? I doubt it.

I'm not going to continue to belabor this point. Clearly you and I disagree, but from my personal experience, the general public seems to be on my side.

We're doing some serious off-roading here so let's get back on topic.
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      03-14-2014, 07:31 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
It's hard to classify cars, especially as the overall selection of production performance cars has multiplied substantially in the past couple of decades. There are subjective measures like aesthetics and brand cache, and then there are objective measures like performance specs, versatility/usability (or lack thereof), costs, dimensions, and construction methods.

Here's my take on some of these terms, many of which are interchangeable or can be used as umbrella labels.

Sports Car: purpose-built; two-door; lightweight construction and agility are a priority; "fun" to drive; visceral; typically FR setup.
(e.g. Elise/Exige, S2000, 370Z, Corvette, majority of 911 variants)

Sports Coupe: two doors, of course; typically based on an existing chassis that shares a sedan variant; performance intentions; accessible driving dynamics; not usually track capable from the showroom floor; heavier relative to sportscars; rarely stripped down and is daily driveable.
(e.g. M3, CTS-V, RS5, etc.)

Super Car: a shared concept with the sports car category, but with increased performance metrics that are typically headline-grabbing and in the top percentile of road going cars; can be based on existing sports car chassis, but more common to have a bespoke chassis with expensive production costs, a wide footprint, and a particularly low roofline; usually (but not restricted to) MR, FMR, M4, RR, and R4 layouts; hard to categorize due to constantly shifting performance bars being set.
(e.g. ZR1, LF-A, 911 GT3/TT, SLS, 458, GTR, Lamborghini range, etc.)

Hyper Car: state of the art tech; completely standout aesthetics; pushes existing powertrain/drivetrain/chassis limits for the given period; absurd price tag.
(e.g. TheTheFerrari, Enzo, 918, CGT, P1, F1, etc.)

Exotic: umbrella term; applied to cars almost always using a mid-engined setup; rarity is a requisite which carries a big price tag to match; performance doesn't have to be record breaking, but supercar levels are typically expected
(e.g. Lambos, Ferraris, high-end Astons, Paganis, etc.)

GT: the goal is versatility; DD qualities and high luxury mixed with impressive levels of performance; usually longer wheelbase; relatively medium in weight; insulated; born for the streets and not for the tracks, although they usually can be track-capable.
(e.g. M6, F-Type, XK, SL AMGs, etc.)

There's a lot of overlap to be had with the multiple labels we have here. You can take a car like the SLS or 991 and check off a few boxes here because their performance and capability envelopes are so vast.
Now that is a solid response to this whole debate! Agree with everything.
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      03-14-2014, 08:12 AM   #51
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The only one I disagree with is Aston Martins being exotic. They belong solidly in the GT or sports car category.
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      03-14-2014, 09:14 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho
The only one I disagree with is Aston Martins being exotic. They belong solidly in the GT or sports car category.
I was referring to the high end Aston like the One-77. I should've just listed that instead of saying "high end Astons" lol. But I agree that all the other Astons, save for some aggressive AMV8 variants, should be lumped in the GT category.
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      03-14-2014, 03:51 PM   #53
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I sold my 335xi for a C6 (Non Z) & I would do it even faster for a C7.

Make the jump. I'll be back in a C6 or a C7 ASAP.
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      03-18-2014, 01:51 AM   #54
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Lol. A Corvette is not a 'supercar'. It's a wonderful car that can beat some super cars but that doesn't make it one.
Saying an American Car is a supercar is just absurd.
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      03-18-2014, 07:39 AM   #55
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Quote:
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Lol. A Corvette is not a 'supercar'. It's a wonderful car that can beat some super cars but that doesn't make it one.
Saying an American Car is a supercar is just absurd.
the Ford GT says GTFO
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      03-18-2014, 11:40 AM   #56
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It has exotic materials (CF and aluminum spaceframe), aero dictated by racing
And plastic everywhere and bose lol... I think the C7 is a major step up in terms of quality but it [and especially the c6] still isn't anywhere near its competition in terms of quality interior.
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      03-18-2014, 12:56 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarReviewBMW View Post
Lol. A Corvette is not a 'supercar'. It's a wonderful car that can beat some super cars but that doesn't make it one.
Saying an American Car is a supercar is just absurd.
Quote:
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the Ford GT says GTFO
So does the Hennessey Venom GT.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/02...roduction-car/

UMMMerica!!!!!!!!!! FCK YA
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      03-18-2014, 01:28 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarReviewBMW View Post
Lol. A Corvette is not a 'supercar'. It's a wonderful car that can beat some super cars but that doesn't make it one.
Saying an American Car is a supercar is just absurd.
So just because it's an American car means it isn't a super car? I didn't know country of origin was a part of the definition of a super car.....
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      03-18-2014, 02:33 PM   #59
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And plastic everywhere and bose lol... I think the C7 is a major step up in terms of quality but it [and especially the c6] still isn't anywhere near its competition in terms of quality interior.
People often forget that Chevy isn't trying to make the greatest interior on the planet or offer the best stereo. They are giving you an unrivaled amount of bang for your buck in terms of performance. That is the stated goal and they've achieved it. Nobody in the Chevy organization is claiming that the Corvette has a class-leading interior so it's really not worth rehashing over and over again as a shortcoming.
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      03-19-2014, 12:35 PM   #60
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People often forget that Chevy isn't trying to make the greatest interior on the planet or offer the best stereo. They are giving you an unrivaled amount of bang for your buck in terms of performance. That is the stated goal and they've achieved it. Nobody in the Chevy organization is claiming that the Corvette has a class-leading interior so it's really not worth rehashing over and over again as a shortcoming.
Very true, but when you price the car 70K+ yes you get the bang for buck HP counters, and people who don't care, but for people not in those two categories shopping in that range, they are severely lacking (even now in the c7 I'd say) ... At least for me, I'd like some resemblance to a quality interior for 70-100k [if the c7 z06 will be 90s+].

If I just wanted bang for buck with zero fcks given about interior, I'd go get an evo, mustang, etc. and just throw bolt ons and Supercharger/turbo on it.
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      03-19-2014, 02:14 PM   #61
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Very true, but when you price the car 70K+ yes you get the bang for buck HP counters, and people who don't care, but for people not in those two categories shopping in that range, they are severely lacking (even now in the c7 I'd say) ... At least for me, I'd like some resemblance to a quality interior for 70-100k [if the c7 z06 will be 90s+].

If I just wanted bang for buck with zero fcks given about interior, I'd go get an evo, mustang, etc. and just throw bolt ons and Supercharger/turbo on it.
Like most things in life, there is always a trade-off. For 90K, what do you view as the direct competition? A Carrera? M3? They have beautiful interiors and lovely sound systems but the Z06 will run circles around both of them. I don't think anyone purchasing a Vette has any expectation of Rolls Royce-like interior quality. Give it a rest already. Is it shit? No. Is it amazing? No. It's right where it should be for a car of this status.
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      03-19-2014, 02:29 PM   #62
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Is there a sports car in the C7 price range with a better interior? The base Boxster/Cayman interior is not a work of art or quality materials, BMW isn't doing anything special and the S5 and TT are both a little old. As King mentioned, the Vette will run circles around any of those, so where's the problem?
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      03-19-2014, 08:49 PM   #63
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Try to go for a 2008+ Z06 as those have improved steering feel and shifter feel. It just feels like a tighter car. Car performs the same, just feels more responsive.
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      03-21-2014, 10:55 AM   #64
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Is there a sports car in the C7 price range with a better interior? The base Boxster/Cayman interior is not a work of art or quality materials, BMW isn't doing anything special and the S5 and TT are both a little old. As King mentioned, the Vette will run circles around any of those, so where's the problem?
And a used vette, evo, etc. with a few k in parts will too? When you simply look at HP per dollar no exotic, or premium car can compete.
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      03-21-2014, 11:03 AM   #65
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Id look for an 08+ Z0Sex because of rocker arm issues in the earlier models plus the updated interior is a little bit better.
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      04-10-2014, 02:50 PM   #66
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For those of you knocking these cars...at the ring...

7:19 zr1
7:22 z06 (z07 magnentic shocks)
7:37 z28 camaro
7:41 zl1
7:43 z06 (the one in question)

7:48 M3 gts

.
The 7:43 was done at the time when GM used to time the lap from a standing start.....The Z06 is definitely a beast to contend with. Love mine.
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