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View Poll Results: What is your prediction???
The U.S. needs to and will take action. 0 0%
The U.S. needs to and will NOT take action. 1 4.55%
The international community needs to and will take action. 1 4.55%
The international community needs to and will NOT take action. 10 45.45%
Nobody should become involved and someone will. 6 27.27%
Nobody should become involved and nobody will. 4 18.18%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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      02-17-2014, 12:48 PM   #1
pgviper
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North Korea - What is the next step?

Looks like everyones favorite leader is having his true colors shown to the world.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asia/nor...acts-un-n32121

Reports say that the crimes commited in N. Korea go up to the highest levels of leadership, I think we all knew that , and that many of the crimes reflect what the Nazi's did to their own people. For those of you that would like to read the report:

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC...quiryDPRK.aspx

An interesting point was that post world war II, many people said "if only we knew what was happening sooner". Well, in this case, it looks like we do.

My question to bimmerpost is... should the U.S. take action, should the international community take action or should we ignore it?

Thoughts...
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      02-17-2014, 01:00 PM   #2
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I think the U.S. is already dipping its nose in too many affairs that it shouldn't.


Should probably focus the time and money spent trying to resolve issues in other countries on fixing our own, first.

In my humble, yet American, opinion..., we should just eliminate N. Korea as aw hole and go about our business.
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      02-17-2014, 08:40 PM   #3
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FWIW, getting into a tangle directly with China is not in any one country's interest at this point. The right place for any action in my opinion is with a united front of nations so that the Chinese can't point to one country as an instigator. However, the UN / "international community" will not act due to Chinese veto power. I feel bad for the folks getting their nuts crushed in prison camps, but I don't see anything getting done on this.
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      02-18-2014, 05:54 PM   #4
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What action would you like to see taken? It's not like NK has a thriving export trade, except in weapons to people who can't buy them elsewhere.

You're not suggesting yet another stupid and pointless war, I presume.

Some problems can't be fixed. We might be able to shame China into peeling away, but probably not. They have political reasons to keep NK in place.
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      02-22-2014, 10:30 PM   #5
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Some problems should never have been created in the first place: After Jimmy Carter went to NK as a "private citizen", Bill Clinton inexplicably gave North Korea nuclear reactors in the first place, and then sent hundreds of thousands of tons of grain, that went to feed their army instead of the starving people. All paid for by the US taxpayer.

Is this different than Obama playing into the hands of the Iranian government? They too are oppressing their people, although hopefully not as badly as North Korea.

The US should give the UN an ultimatum - fix North Korea, or we are finished, and GTHO of NYC.
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      02-23-2014, 02:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Some problems should never have been created in the first place: After Jimmy Carter went to NK as a "private citizen", Bill Clinton inexplicably gave North Korea nuclear reactors in the first place, and then sent hundreds of thousands of tons of grain, that went to feed their army instead of the starving people. All paid for by the US taxpayer.

Is this different than Obama playing into the hands of the Iranian government? They too are oppressing their people, although hopefully not as badly as North Korea.

The US should give the UN an ultimatum - fix North Korea, or we are finished, and GTHO of NYC.
How exactly would you like them to "fix NK"? Start another pointless and futile war? Should our military participate?

Bill Clinton's deal with North Korea is hardly "inexplicable", nor did it ever actually give them reactors, nor did it increase their nuclear capability. He made an agreement to give North Korea two light water nuclear power plants that were far less useful in producing weapons grade material than the reactors they had already, in return for opening all their reactors to international inspectors, which they did at first. And a timetable to destroy their existing reactors and ship out any weapons grade material they had. While it didn't work long term, it wasn't obviously a bad idea at the time, and, post Clinton, was supported by both Bush and South Korea. South Korea agreed to be the principal financial source for the reactors. George W. Bush continued to plan for the light water reactors to be built for North Korea, and actually started their construction, until it became clear that North Korea wouldn't hold up their end of the bargain. Bush also continued to send food.

The light water reactors were never built.

The person who really "played into the hands of the Iranian government" was George Bush, who destroyed the power that was keeping them in check. It was an obviously predictable result. As a geopolitical move, it was incredibly stupid. When Bush (either one) invaded Iraq, they broke out the champagne in Tehran. The rise of Iran may well be, after the deaths of thousands of our brave soldiers, the second worst result of the ridiculous Iraq war. Closely followed by the trillion dollars it cost.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 02-23-2014 at 03:10 AM.
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      02-23-2014, 05:48 PM   #7
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"Fixing" NK equates to putting pressure on China, who is the only one who can bring pressure to NK (other than Dennis Rodman).

Clinton started it, and Bush continued it. The light water reactors can apparently make weapons-grade plutonium:

The head of the Non-proliferation Policy Education Centre in Washington, a critic of the Agreed Framework, has warned that even when the new reactors are completed they may not be tamper-proof.

"These reactors are like all reactors, They have the potential to make weapons. So you might end up supplying the worst nuclear violator with the means to acquire the very weapons we're trying to prevent it acquiring," Henry Sokolski told the Far Eastern Economic Review.

Iraq wasn't holding Iran in check...

Did you miss the celebration in Tehran a few weeks ago, when Obama caved? And before that, when Putin spanked him and Kerry?
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      02-23-2014, 09:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The head of the Non-proliferation Policy Education Centre in Washington, a critic of the Agreed Framework, has warned that even when the new reactors are completed they may not be tamper-proof.
"These reactors are like all reactors, They have the potential to make weapons. So you might end up supplying the worst nuclear violator with the means to acquire the very weapons we're trying to prevent it acquiring," Henry Sokolski told the Far Eastern Economic Review.

This quote makes no sense. How were we "supplying them with the means" when they already had better reactors for building bombs. As was demonstrated, they are reactors they've used to build bombs. The light water reactors were not foolproof, but everyone, including Clinton, Bush, and South Korea thought they'd be far less dangerous than the status quo. South Korea was willing to spend millions of dollars to make the deal happen. You can side with Henry Sokoloski, I'll side with two US Presidents (who didn't agree on much) and the government of South Korea.

Bottom line. The deal can be criticized but mostly because we couldn't make it happen.

Once again, the light water reactors were never built.

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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Iraq wasn't holding Iran in check...
How can you make this assertion? Before we invaded Iran and Iraq were each others worst enemies. They fought an 8 year war (the longest and most destructive in Middle East history since WWII) for supremacy in the region. It cost them each hundreds of thousands of lives, and many millions of dollars. It occupied pretty much every military asset they had. And it didn't end with a peace treaty, just a UN brokered cease fire. Saddam represented a constant and extreme threat to Iran.

All that changed when we invaded. In 2003 Iran and Iraq restored diplomatic relations. Since then they've been closely allied, although most say that's because Iran pretty much dominates the relationship, since Iraq is now very weak, while Iran maintains its former strength.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 02-23-2014 at 10:00 PM.
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      04-27-2014, 04:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
The person who really "played into the hands of the Iranian government" was George Bush, who destroyed the power that was keeping them in check. It was an obviously predictable result. As a geopolitical move, it was incredibly stupid. When Bush (either one) invaded Iraq, they broke out the champagne in Tehran. The rise of Iran may well be, after the deaths of thousands of our brave soldiers, the second worst result of the ridiculous Iraq war. Closely followed by the trillion dollars it cost.
Iraq was much weaker with Saddam in power and under sanction and US/allied air watch in the wake of the 1st Gulf War than it currently is now. As a result of their defeat in Kuwait, most of Iraq's air force was either destroyed by the US or flown into Iran or Syria, never to be returned. A majority of their armed forces, especially their mechanized assets were severely depleted. With a barely existent economy and the US keeping constant air watch to its north and south, Iraq was truly at its weakest and Iran enjoyed the greatest advantage at this point.

Iraq is currently still experiencing a slew of military/political and economic problems, but it does a have a functioning central government (albeit Shia-dominated) and a highly trained and well-funded military force. As well, now that they are starting to get to pre-war levels in terms of oil exports, their economy has the potential to grow.

This is the reason Iran has such a vested interest in getting nukes and trying to manipulate Iraqi affairs.... because if Iraq continues down this path, they will likely be a major rival to Iran's regional hegemony.

The rise of Iran has less to do with the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 and more to do with our attempt to defeat Iran through proxy war in the 80's. As a result of that conflict, Iran has constantly been looking for ways to cement its regional dominance and nukes are now its key focus.

How well the current US President can dissuade Iran from pursuing nukes will greatly affect Iran's future course...so far we haven't been too successful, but time will tell.
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      08-07-2014, 07:14 PM   #10
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Like it or not, N. Korea is a sovereign country and should be left to do as it pleases provided it does no harm to people outside N. Korea.

All the best.
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      08-07-2014, 11:43 PM   #11
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As long as they're not directly harming anyone, we should keep our noses out of it. We got our own people starving, decreased K12 funding and skyrocketing college funds, a lousy economy and waging wars that we should withdraw from already. Although I do wish that f**ker would either die a horrible death to his own devices, wake up and smell the roses and run the place like a f**king democracy, or have another country overthrow them and give some rights to the people.
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