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      11-10-2007, 02:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
If that is what he says he saw, multiple M3s sitting on dealer lots at list or below, then I have no issue with the OP or the thread.

However, my interpretation based on the post I replied to is that he is scanning a national database and arriving at that conclusion, which would be pointless unless a significant percentage of the listed cars are listed at similar prices. Which one is it Moss? Where exactly did you see those 3 cars?
Its all from Autotrader which is the best known car sales weekly publication (produced regionally accross the UK) and website.

www.autotrader.co.uk

Search for any car you like, private and dealer (mostly none franchised)sellers pretty much all put their cars on there. There are loads of everything on there, no surprise there are a decent number of M3s.

As I said before, if you do do a search for the M3 I think you will notice they are mostly non BMW dealers selling cars they pre ordered. In fact over the first 5 pages only 4 are private.

Speculators who didnt learn their lesson from the Elise, Mk2 TT and a long list of other mass produced cars they thought they could make money from and couldnt. Means bugger all as far as the M3 is concerned, happens all the time. Posting the OP based on autotrader is hilarious to be honest.

Oh, you will need a postcode (zip). Use LS1 1AA.
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      11-10-2007, 02:55 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Leg View Post
Its all from Autotrader which is the best known car sales weekly publication (produced regionally accross the UK) and website.

www.autotrader.co.uk

Search for any car you like, private and dealer (mostly none franchised)sellers pretty much all put their cars on there. There are loads of everything on there, no surprise there are a decent number of M3s.

As I said before, if you do do a search for the M3 I think you will notice they are mostly non BMW dealers selling cars they pre ordered. In fact over the first 5 pages only 4 are private.

Speculators who didnt learn their lesson from the Elise, Mk2 TT and a long list of other mass produced cars they thought they could make money from and couldnt. Means bugger all as far as the M3 is concerned, happens all the time. Posting the OP based on autotrader is hilarious to be honest.

Oh, you will need a postcode (zip). Use LS1 1AA.
Thanks for the zip. So I went to that website. The cheapest M3 coupe is USED, and listed at £52,845. The cheapest new car that seems to be below list is at £53,990, but it is not being sold by a dealer, so who knows what the story might be. There might be a few others like that, but they are not in the majority. Then you look at the rest of the 42 cars that popped up, and the majority is priced at £56,000+, which was the point I made earlier. 33 of the 42 listed cars are used actually. So Moss's original post intentionally focuses on one end of the distribution to make a false claim about how these cars are not holding their value and that kind of nonsense. The truth is that it is simply too early to know and the market needs to settle down.
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      11-10-2007, 07:01 PM   #25
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A month or so after the launch in the UK and heaps of M3's are available - most just sitting on forecourts - I’ve been watching three cars (at list price or below) sit for over three weeks now. I guess the game has just moved on since the E46 launch.

New M3 - brilliant car - but no longer with the residual halo that it once had - the E92 is gonna be very expensive to own.
I really think you're being rather previous here.

1) Build-slot availability from BMW dealers is certainly not in line with your claim that "they ain't selling"

2) There is no current evidence at all to indicate depreciation rates - cars are being advertised at list price or thereabouts.

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most just sitting on forecourts
What are you talking about? "Most" cars ordered have not yet been delivered! How many E92 M3's have you actually seen "sitting" on BMW Dealer forecourts?

The fact is that it is far too early to claim you know any more than the rest of us about M3 residuals. However, a load of cheap second-hand M3's sitting around on forecourts would, I suspect, make the RS4 pretty expensive to own too!

The speculators will always cause some kind of distortion to market values around the launch-time because we don't know what proportion of cars delivered have gone to them. The leaches will move on to exploiting parents whose kids want Playstation 3's for Christmas soon enough and a true picture will emerge. The impact of DCT will certainly be interesting - it will be a very different car to the 6MT, but whether they will compete for the same customers I don't know.
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      11-10-2007, 07:31 PM   #26
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My thought (IMHO)... the US real estate market is falling on its face, the DOW is nose diving and the cost of gasoline (petrol) is soaring. As a result, I believe that we will see a large number of M3s sitting on the lot. My dealer has already told me that they have seen a decline in BMW sales over the last 3 months and they are anticipating rocky roads ahead.
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      11-11-2007, 08:11 AM   #27
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"They aren't selling" might be a bit exaggerated, but those who are selling their M3 thought that all M3's of the first production year would be sold out, which is simply not the case. One reason might be the price that is too close to the 911.
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      11-11-2007, 08:57 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by moss View Post
A month or so after the launch in the UK and heaps of M3's are available - most just sitting on forecourts - I’ve been watching three cars (at list price or below) sit for over three weeks now. I guess the game has just moved on since the E46 launch.

New M3 - brilliant car - but no longer with the residual halo that it once had - the E92 is gonna be very expensive to own.
you ever think that maybe those cars are sold but the owners are waiting until jan 08 to pick them up??? Its only a few weeks away. That's what i have done.
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      11-11-2007, 09:46 AM   #29
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you ever think that maybe those cars are sold but the owners are waiting until jan 08 to pick them up??? Its only a few weeks away. That's what i have done.
Hmm, very interesting.

What would the point of waiting until January and a new year be? I don't get it at all, but I'm no business man.
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      11-11-2007, 09:49 AM   #30
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you ever think that maybe those cars are sold but the owners are waiting until jan 08 to pick them up??? Its only a few weeks away. That's what i have done.
What neck of the woods are you in Ray? Donegal here

What spec did you go for?
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      11-11-2007, 10:52 AM   #31
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I can't believe some of the comments I read here! You are putting Moss on trial to determine if he is telling the truth or has some BMW hating ulterior motive to put down your beloved toy?
You maybe interested in knowing the stock markets both in US and Europe have been taken a bad beating, the credit markets are as bad as anything in recent history, financial institutions are writing off multi billion dollar losses and their CEOs getting fired, price of oil at $100 a barrel. We are looking at nearly a million Homes being foreclosured this year alone. I read an article that some People in U.K. are using their credit cards to make mortgage payments! In short we are in an unannounced recession, so does it come as a surprise to you that people aren't jumping on cars?
Finally FYI, I took my wife's X5 to the largest BMW dealer in South Florida that claims to be the number one dealer in the world. They had two or three new 335i coupes sitting on the lot with four or five "executive ones" very low mileage used ones sitting on the lot, and the service tech told me traffic is really down overall.
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      11-11-2007, 11:20 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by 2002 Tii View Post
I can't believe some of the comments I read here! You are putting Moss on trial to determine if he is telling the truth or has some BMW hating ulterior motive to put down your beloved toy?
You maybe interested in knowing the stock markets both in US and Europe have been taken a bad beating, the credit markets are as bad as anything in recent history, financial institutions are writing off multi billion dollar losses and their CEOs getting fired, price of oil at $100 a barrel. We are looking at nearly a million Homes being foreclosured this year alone. I read an article that some People in U.K. are using their credit cards to make mortgage payments! In short we are in an unannounced recession, so does it come as a surprise to you that people aren't jumping on cars?
Finally FYI, I took my wife's X5 to the largest BMW dealer in South Florida that claims to be the number one dealer in the world. They had two or three new 335i coupes sitting on the lot with four or five "executive ones" very low mileage used ones sitting on the lot, and the service tech told me traffic is really down overall.

I think you missed the point of many of the posts in this thread. Whilst there are some M3s on Autotrader, there are also plenty of other cars on there of similar value and type as well and the motivation of the OP is in question, not the state of the world money markets.

I havent been onto any RS4 sites to announce that there are fifty odd RS4s stuck on Autotrader that dont seem to be selling, many of which have been on there for weeks. I also havent felt the need to point this out to people I know on the TTForums that now own RS4s.

The OP was clearly a flame designed to get under the skin of M3 owners present and future. Daft thread really, especially as the reasons you stated, which are in the main correct, would clearly affect any V8 engined £50K car.

Frankly my opinion is that if you're worried about the financial situation the world is currently facing you should'nt be buying an M3 OR an RS4.

Assume you just blew £50K when you get your V8 super saloon and its all gone and get on with enjoying the car. If you get more than a pound/dollar back after your fun, consider it a bonus. If you get a Euro back, you must be European and possibly French and if thats the case, then losing money on your car is the least of your problems.
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      11-11-2007, 11:42 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Leg View Post
I think you missed the point of many of the posts in this thread. Whilst there are some M3s on Autotrader, there are also plenty of other cars on there of similar value and type as well and the motivation of the OP is in question, not the state of the world money markets.


Plus, one needs to consider the original post in context; moss does this kind of thing too often.
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      11-11-2007, 11:59 AM   #34
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I really think you're being rather previous here.

1) Build-slot availability from BMW dealers is certainly not in line with your claim that "they ain't selling"
Exactly what I was asking. So, basically there is still a waitlist for the car at dealerships. Yes?

Here is all that needs to be done to prove/disprove moss' claim: simply go into the dealerships where the M3 is sitting on the lots and ask if they have a waitlist. If they do, then the one sitting outside is completely irrelevant. It could be sold, it could be an unpopular spec, it could be a demo, or whatever else. The way to judge whether the car is popular is to see if people are waiting to buy it. Case f'ing closed.

So how 'bout it? Who can walk into a dealership in the UK (or anywhere) _right now_ and get an immediate build slot?
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      11-11-2007, 12:16 PM   #35
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Just because I own an RS4 - what bloody difference does that make? What the hell is troll meant to mean anyway. I guess those writing such crap are actually 15 year old spotty boys anyhow. Thank god there are those (in the minority) who can have some kind of mature discussion. For the hundreth time - I LOVE THE NEW M3 - I LOVE THE RS4 - I LOVE CARS IN GENERAL.

FACTS IN THE UK ARE:

I CAN BUY A BRAND NEW M3 TO MY SPEC AND IT WILL BE HERE BY NEW YEAR.

I CAN BUY FOR UNDER LIST PRICE TENS OF M3's WITH DELIVERY MILES.

THE POINT OF THE POST WAS NOT THAT THIS MAKES THE M3 A WORSE CAR, BUT JUST TO HIGHLIGHT THAT RESIDUALS WILL NOT BE ON PAR WITH THE PREVIOUS MODEL. THIS WILL BE OF INTEREST TO SOME AND NOT TO OTHERS.

THE REASON RESIDUALS WILL BE WEAKER IS BECAUSE SUPPLY EXCEEDS DEMAND - THE REVERSE OF THE E46 SITUATION AT LAUNCH.

I AGREE THIS PROBABLY HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE GENERAL ECONOMY THAN THE CAR - BUT NETHERTHELESS THIS IS THE SITUATION.
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      11-11-2007, 12:23 PM   #36
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I CAN BUY A BRAND NEW M3 TO MY SPEC AND IT WILL BE HERE BY NEW YEAR.
No need to yell, really.

I think that if you had posted everything you did above (sans the YELLING) in the original post of this thread, you'd be taking a lot less heat. Don't you think? The three line "sky-is-falling" type posts with no rationale provided are bound to raise eyebrows.

So, about these waitlists (or lack thereof), have then been absent from the very start? Or are they just recently clearing out, after the pricing and the performance of the car have been revealed?
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      11-11-2007, 12:45 PM   #37
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Exactly what I was asking. So, basically there is still a waitlist for the car at dealerships. Yes?
(Also) In Germany, yes!

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      11-11-2007, 12:59 PM   #38
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The wait list was expected to be around 18 months. I first put down a depsoit for the M3 in July 2005. In June 2007 (uk got september launch) I rang three dealers. Each said that the waiting list was still between 12 - 18 months. After launch (and it has to be said some slightly disappointing press coverage in the UK at least) it seems that many people have pulled off the list (as previously said may be due to worsening financial situation). I called each of the three dealers around two weeks ago and in each case they said they could provide a speccable car by december 2007.

The above is fact - period - and is the situation in the UK. Whether similar patterns of supply / demand have occurred in other countries, I have no idea.

Just thought this would be of interest - no axe to grind.
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      11-11-2007, 01:49 PM   #39
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The wait list was expected to be around 18 months. I first put down a depsoit for the M3 in July 2005. In June 2007 (uk got september launch) I rang three dealers. Each said that the waiting list was still between 12 - 18 months. After launch (and it has to be said some slightly disappointing press coverage in the UK at least) it seems that many people have pulled off the list (as previously said may be due to worsening financial situation). I called each of the three dealers around two weeks ago and in each case they said they could provide a speccable car by december 2007.
1. Locate one BMW dealer in the UK which has 3 M3s sitting in the lot available for sale for list or less as you claimed in your originial post.

2. If even if you can do 1, which I seriously doubt you can, that doesn't allow anyone to say a whole lot about residuals going to hell as you claimed in your original post. That remains to be seen. In time, they very well might, but it is not possible to make such claims at the moment.

You do this kind of thing often. If you remember, you were on top of the troll list that was axed. There were many people posting to that thread, and not just a few 15 year olds. That happened because people felt like picking on you out of boredom? You might or might not like the M3. That's another story, and I don't care.
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      11-11-2007, 02:07 PM   #40
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Just because I own an RS4 - what bloody difference does that make? What the hell is troll meant to mean anyway. I guess those writing such crap are actually 15 year old spotty boys anyhow. Thank god there are those (in the minority) who can have some kind of mature discussion. For the hundreth time - I LOVE THE NEW M3 - I LOVE THE RS4 - I LOVE CARS IN GENERAL.
Glad to hear it. I'm not accusing you of trolling - I don't really know anything about you, but I do think that you are dealing in what can be described at best as conjecture. You might turn out to be correct about 12-month residuals, but none of the arguments you have given are at all persuasive.

Quote:
I CAN BUY A BRAND NEW M3 TO MY SPEC AND IT WILL BE HERE BY NEW YEAR.
Just to be categorical abou this, you cannot go to BMW and spec a car tomorrow for delivery this year. Coopers in Wimbledon told me they are taking orders for 2010!

Quote:
I CAN BUY FOR UNDER LIST PRICE TENS OF M3's WITH DELIVERY MILES.
This could mean all sorts of things: dealer cars were mostly in Melbourne Red or had Fox Red interiors - the beauty of these is frankly in the eye of the beholder; none of us know how many cars went to speculators wanting a piece of the E46 action - when the volume of delivered cars is so small, this can significantly distort the market until the sample size grows.

Quote:
THE REASON RESIDUALS WILL BE WEAKER IS BECAUSE SUPPLY EXCEEDS DEMAND
For reasons that are clearly apparent to almost everyone else on the forum, this is patently untrue!
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      11-11-2007, 02:14 PM   #41
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when the volume of delivered cars is so small, this can significantly distort the market until the sample size grows.
Yes, this is the real issue. Too few cars for sale out there for trading volume to reach any kind of meaningful number and the asking prices to reflect anything particularly relevant/generalizable--never mind the fact that the claims moss has made regarding M3 availability in the UK (cars sitting on dealer lots) seem more like an exaggeration than anything else. In my opinion, things can move in either direction depending on how the broader issues develop.
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      11-11-2007, 02:35 PM   #42
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Fine maybe in london 2010 is the wait - save yourself 2+ years wait and call dealers in the northwest. I am not lying - this is now silly.

I'll bow out of this post now - i was only trying to be constructive.
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      11-11-2007, 02:52 PM   #43
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Fine maybe in london 2010 is the wait - save yourself 2+ years wait and call dealers in the northwest. I am not lying - this is now silly.

I'll bow out of this post now - i was only trying to be constructive.
I am sorry for railing on you if you really meant to be constructive. If that is indeed the case, and I am willing to take your word for it, the language you use seems to be out of proportion with the points you mean to make. Maybe that's why some people, including me, might have reacted the way they did.
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      11-11-2007, 03:02 PM   #44
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If I underestand correctly; the general feeling here is that Moss has sadistic tendencies to wake up in the morning create false stories to get under the skin of M3 fans because he is an enemy who drives an Audi?
There is something very cynical or childish about this train of thought. All I can tell you is my personal situation as a professional in the financial sector; about a year ago I wouldn't have thought for five minutes before driving off the dealer's lot with the E92. Today I'm stock with an investment property that I can't sell, not to mention that my income is no where near what it was a year ago. Fortunately not everyone is in my case and some big boys are making a killing, but those guys are buying Bentleys, Lambos and ferraris not M3s. Also, I know of quite a few who are in the same boat as I or if they are smart enough to see the future, soon will be. Now if you are a single young guy with just a car payment, your prespective can be very different.
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