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      02-07-2014, 05:16 PM   #1
solstice
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Lewis Hamilton on the new power delivery + Bernie E. on noise.

The difference seems to be much larger than even I expected in how low in the rpm range they run these new cars. 5th gear instead of 2nd, that's a massive difference.

“Regarding the torque he said: “In the past we’ve used first and second gear through corners, now we’re using fourth and fifth.”

http://adamcooperf1.com/2014/01/31/l...llenging-year/

Mr. F1 is less than impressed with the new engines...

"“The whole thing with the new engines is totally absurd. People want noise – something special, that’s what F1 is all about – and now we have quiet engines and nobody on the track.”

http://adamcooperf1.com/2014/01/31/n...ys-ecclestone/
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      02-07-2014, 05:19 PM   #2
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Shouldn't this be in General Car Talk?
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      02-07-2014, 05:29 PM   #3
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Shouldn't this be in General Car Talk?
Maybe but the same topic was entered here before with Jenson Button's view on the power delivery and noise. It was not moved by the mods. I guess the fact that F1 went from NA V8s to Turbo 6 cylinders make the observations and differences connected to the same change on the M3. And we spent probably half the bytes on this site debating noise and power delivery changes due to this change
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      02-07-2014, 05:33 PM   #4
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Autosport was less than impressed with Ecclestones "farce" comments on engine sound since he hadn't actually been present in Jerez

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...-in-formula-1/

Some good articles on aero and traction problems facing F1 in 2014:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112453

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112403

BTW, the 4th and 5th gear comment from Hamilton collaborates my previous comment on why it's better to be at lower rpm's and in a higher gear out of corners when you have loads of torque. In a higher gear, you have less torque multiplication and hence less torque at the rear wheels. Meaning a better chance for the driver to be in control over traction. As one of the links above reports, we will see much more sideways action this year. Both because of torque but also because of less downforce and tricky tire temperature control.
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      02-07-2014, 05:40 PM   #5
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Btw for you who might wonder how many gears they have, it's eight. So with Lewis driving style he will just use just over half the gears this season. Except from launch off the line of course. Now that's riding the torque alright.
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      02-07-2014, 05:45 PM   #6
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They are using 8 gears this season, and they will have fixed ratios from the first race of the season. They are allowed to change them once throughout the year, but after they change them, they must remain the same. They have to compensate for tighter tracks like Monaco, and high speed tracks like Monza, which is why it may seem weird if they are a gear or two higher than past years.

And although the engines may sound cool/nice, I think it's just because it is something different. Looking at videos on youtube of the v12s and v10s makes me really miss that sound. That noise was F1.
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      02-07-2014, 05:47 PM   #7
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They are using 8 gears this season, and they will have fixed ratios from the first race of the season. They are allowed to change them once throughout the year, but after they change them, they must remain the same. They have to compensate for tighter tracks like Monaco, and high speed tracks like Monza, which is why it may seem weird if they are a gear or two higher than past years.
3 gears higher in Lewis case. That is massive anyway you twist it. Especially since it's common to use longer and fewer gears in a high torque engine vs. a NA screamer.
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      02-07-2014, 05:51 PM   #8
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3 gears higher in Lewis case. That is massive anyway you twist it.
It just depends on the ratios the team picks and thinks are ideal. I'm pretty sure he and Nico will be using the same gears 95% of the time.
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      02-07-2014, 05:53 PM   #9
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It just depends on the ratios the team picks and thinks are ideal. I'm pretty sure he and Nico will be using the same gears 95% of the time.
I agree , I'm just keep referring to Lewis since it's his statement and not a general statement across drivers.
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      02-07-2014, 05:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFlo335
They are using 8 gears this season, and they will have fixed ratios from the first race of the season. They are allowed to change them once throughout the year, but after they change them, they must remain the same. They have to compensate for tighter tracks like Monaco, and high speed tracks like Monza, which is why it may seem weird if they are a gear or two higher than past years.

And although the engines may sound cool/nice, I think it's just because it is something different. Looking at videos on youtube of the v12s and v10s makes me really miss that sound. That noise was F1.
Exactly!

As well as less downforce, tire temperature issues and more torque. All of those things combine in higher gears through corners and especially corner exits.

With less downforce and colder tires you get less grip. Add more torque and you definitely will see higher gears being used through corners and exiting corners. Even though the engine might be in the rpm range with most torque, it's better to be in a higher gear as torque multiplucation is lower in higher gears, meaning less torque at the rear wheels to break traction!
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      02-07-2014, 05:55 PM   #11
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“You’ve got a turbo, you’ve got KERS."

He means ERS, correct?
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      02-07-2014, 06:00 PM   #12
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“You’ve got a turbo, you’ve got KERS."

He means ERS, correct?
If I'm not mistaken, they are still using KERS, but it is being called ERS-K, and they are using another one called ERS-H.
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      02-07-2014, 06:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SoFlo335 View Post
They are using 8 gears this season, and they will have fixed ratios from the first race of the season. They are allowed to change them once throughout the year, but after they change them, they must remain the same. They have to compensate for tighter tracks like Monaco, and high speed tracks like Monza, which is why it may seem weird if they are a gear or two higher than past years.
3 gears higher in Lewis case. That is massive anyway you twist it. Especially since it's common to use longer and fewer gears in a high torque engine vs. a NA screamer.
I obviously don't know the ratios the teams choose. But they have to compromise this year as 1st and 2nd must be useable around Monaco and then they need a 8th that is long enough for Monza and gears that suit the rest of the tracks as well...

And don't forget that 18.000rpm in 2nd was probably just as fast as 15.000rpm is in 3rd in todays cars. And if you don't want to run right on the limiter in 3rd, or indeed want less torque to the rear wheels, you end up in 4th.

The redline is 3000rpms lower than last year, meaning that even with a 7 speed gearbox you would end up 1 gear higher to carry the same speed through the corner. We now also have one extra ratio, and depending on ratio spacing that might also account for one higher gear available low down. So I don't necessarily see that being in 4th means they are low in the rev range...
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      02-07-2014, 06:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFlo335 View Post
Looking at videos on youtube of the v12s and v10s makes me really miss that sound. That noise was F1.
Agree again, the V10s are my favorites. I'm glad I got to see them live at Indianapolis. It was the year when little Schumacher put the Williams BMW in the barrier in the run up to the grand stand. What incredible noise those cars made
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      02-07-2014, 06:52 PM   #15
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These are amateurs driving, but the noise . The turbo engines can't even come remotely close to this, no matter what anyone says. This is F1. You're supposed to be able to hear the cars from miles away. You should be able to hear the car, from the other side of the track, as if it were right next to you.

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      02-07-2014, 07:07 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by SoFlo335 View Post
These are amateurs driving, but the noise . The turbo engines can't even come remotely close to this, no matter what anyone says. This is F1. You're supposed to be able to hear the cars from miles away. You should be able to hear the car, from the other side of the track, as if it were right next to you.



Bernie is rightfully concerned about it IMO. I don't think the drivers mind the lower noise but you can read between the lines that they are NOT impressed by the pace. About 5s off per lap at Jerez and just marginally faster than a GP2 car. If both the sound and speed of F1 is gone much of the specialness and allure of F1 goes with it. They need to figure out the speed sooner than later to keep the status where it is. Maybe restrict GP2...
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      02-07-2014, 07:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Bernie is rightfully concerned about it IMO. I don't think the drivers mind the lower noise but you can read between the lines that they are NOT impressed by the pace. About 5s off per lap at Jerez and just marginally faster than a GP2 car. If both the sound and speed of F1 is gone much of the specialness and allure of F1 goes with it. They need to figure out the speed sooner than later to keep the status where it is. Maybe restrict GP2...
They are slower than last year, but I don't think they will be off by too much. Perhaps in the first couple of races they will be, but once the teams get a hang of the new power units, then they'll be closer to the pace.

But it is worrying that they are not much faster than GP2, and that the GP2 cars will sound much better.

I just wish the cars were more similar to the early 2000s, lots of power, great tires, fuel pit stops...
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      02-08-2014, 01:46 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFlo335 View Post
These are amateurs driving, but the noise . The turbo engines can't even come remotely close to this, no matter what anyone says. This is F1. You're supposed to be able to hear the cars from miles away. You should be able to hear the car, from the other side of the track, as if it were right next to you.



Bernie is rightfully concerned about it IMO. I don't think the drivers mind the lower noise but you can read between the lines that they are NOT impressed by the pace. About 5s off per lap at Jerez and just marginally faster than a GP2 car. If both the sound and speed of F1 is gone much of the specialness and allure of F1 goes with it. They need to figure out the speed sooner than later to keep the status where it is. Maybe restrict GP2...
Sound is a big concern, but Autosport (that actually was at Jerez, unlike Bernie) was in favour of the new sound. I'm still on the fence and personally prefer the NA sound of the V8.

The lap times (from that first test) is back to the lap times F1 did in 2000. See one of my previous links. No one was complaining about slow cars then...
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      02-08-2014, 01:49 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post


Bernie is rightfully concerned about it IMO. I don't think the drivers mind the lower noise but you can read between the lines that they are NOT impressed by the pace. About 5s off per lap at Jerez and just marginally faster than a GP2 car. If both the sound and speed of F1 is gone much of the specialness and allure of F1 goes with it. They need to figure out the speed sooner than later to keep the status where it is. Maybe restrict GP2...
They are slower than last year, but I don't think they will be off by too much. Perhaps in the first couple of races they will be, but once the teams get a hang of the new power units, then they'll be closer to the pace.

But it is worrying that they are not much faster than GP2, and that the GP2 cars will sound much better.

I just wish the cars were more similar to the early 2000s, lots of power, great tires, fuel pit stops...
There are two similarities with 2000:

Lots of power
Same lap times as in 2000 (based on the first Jerez test)
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      02-08-2014, 05:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
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The difference seems to be much larger than even I expected in how low in the rpm range they run these new cars. 5th gear instead of 2nd, that's a massive difference.

“Regarding the torque he said: “In the past we’ve used first and second gear through corners, now we’re using fourth and fifth.”
These videos show how the cars are driven at high gears through the corners and shortshifting out of corners, but even then struggle for grip. On the straights though you can hear them going far higher in the rev range (Mercedes apparently ran a redline of only 13.000rpm at Jerez and Ferrari slightly lower, so we still probably haven't heard them at 15.000rpm yet).

The Renault powered cars are distinguishable by not doing any high RPM running at all here...



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      02-19-2014, 07:11 AM   #21
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Quote:
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I don't think the drivers mind the lower noise but you can read between the lines that they are NOT impressed by the pace. About 5s off per lap at Jerez and just marginally faster than a GP2 car. If both the sound and speed of F1 is gone much of the specialness and allure of F1 goes with it. They need to figure out the speed sooner than later to keep the status where it is. Maybe restrict GP2...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFlo335 View Post
They are slower than last year, but I don't think they will be off by too much. Perhaps in the first couple of races they will be, but once the teams get a hang of the new power units, then they'll be closer to the pace.

But it is worrying that they are not much faster than GP2, and that the GP2 cars will sound much better.

I just wish the cars were more similar to the early 2000s, lots of power, great tires, fuel pit stops...
Today the 2nd winter test has just begun. They are allready lapping the Bahrain track in the 1:37,9 bracket. The fastest lap in last years race was 1:36,9. So the cars are now only 1sec off the race pace from last year, and the quickest time so far would have equalled the 7th fastest lap time from 2013.

And it's still not even halfway through the first day of this test...

EDIT:

And just as I wrote the above, Hulkenberg did a 1m37.155s. That's 0.7s clear of Hamilton in the Mercedes, and only 0.2s slower than last year's race fastest lap set by Vettel's Red Bull.

EDIT 2:

Now Hulkenberg is down to 1m36.953s, a bit faster than the 2013 fastest race lap

EDIT 3:

Now Hulkenberg is down to 1m36.880s (0,1s faster than last years fastest race lap)

Last edited by Boss330; 02-19-2014 at 09:33 AM.
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      02-19-2014, 10:23 AM   #22
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To all the guys talking about the sound of a v10 or v12 being the essence of F1... I can't help but disagree. Don't get me wrong, the noise from those engines are intoxicating, and perhaps more so special since we don't see a lot of high VE road cars. But F1 has always been about applying leading technologies to a competitive race class. I think those of you who are truly automobile enthusiasts will be able to appreciate the application of technology and execution of mechanics in the modern f1 cars. To me, the new f1 cars sound great, but perhaps that is because I expect them to sound like a "balls to the wall" turbocharged v6... not a v10 or anything else.
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