BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
PYSPEED
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-13-2014, 01:09 PM   #1
s4one
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2013 e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: California

Posts: 144
iTrader: (0)

Euro MDM vs Traction Control OFF

How much of a difference is there between the two? Main issue for me is that during turns the traction control is interfering too much. Braking during the turn and makes it hard to gas out of the turn since traction control is cutting lower and braking in the inside of the car.

I did big willow before with my e46 m3 with traction control off and it was good, did spin at omega but that is due to the new line that i was testing.

Thanks
s4one is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 01:23 PM   #2
LightWerkz
Banned
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oakland, NJ

Posts: 534
iTrader: (1)

Euro MDM is a very noticeable difference, it lets you toss the car around alot.
LightWerkz is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 01:25 PM   #3
mkPOTO
Mr. Nice Says Hello
 
mkPOTO's Avatar
 
Drives: 1999 528I
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: USA

Posts: 15,297
iTrader: (23)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightWerkz View Post
Euro MDM is a very noticeable difference, it lets you toss the car around alot.
indeed.. love the difference !
__________________
EVOLVE BMW E92 M3
mkPOTO is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 01:25 PM   #4
KennyPowers
Brigadier General
 
Drives: .....
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gulf Coast

Posts: 3,606
iTrader: (13)

imo big difference. but if you drive cleanly and not aggressively, you wont notice much.

This is my only car and our track doesn't have great runoff areas, so I don't push it too hard coming out of the corners despite running TC off

imo take it off and slowly work up speed as you get a feel for the cars traction levels
__________________
2004 TiAg E46 M3 6MT - on the way......

2009 AW E92 M3 DCT - SOLD
KennyPowers is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 01:47 PM   #5
s4one
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2013 e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: California

Posts: 144
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkPOTO View Post
indeed.. love the difference !
What do you mean noticeable difference? Meaning with traction control off, I can avoid the car braking during turns and cutting power?

That is the main issue right now, I'd go fast in and slow out due to the traction control braking during my turns. Therefore, I am not able to feather the gas out of the turn since the braking and the power cut off is being interfered by the traction control.
s4one is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 01:49 PM   #6
surlynkid
Captain
 
surlynkid's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: League City, TX

Posts: 845
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Big difference between Euro MDM and nannies completely off. Smooth throttle, steering and brake input required and don't lift.
__________________
Stoptech 380mm/355mm | Pagid RS-29 | Akrapovic EVO - CF tips | Benvo Tune | MS UDP | AA air filter | Apex EC-7 18x10 square 275/35-18 NT01 | 90mm Turner Studs | GT4 Brake Cooling | GT4 Power Steering Cooling | Performance Steering Wheel | CF Mirror Caps | CF Spoiler | Varis System 1 Full CF Diffuser | Extended Paddle Shifters | Schroth Quick Fit | Vorshlag Camber Plates | AiM Solo DL
surlynkid is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 05:12 PM   #7
aus
Major General
 
Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

Posts: 7,216
iTrader: (5)

My last instructor is a BMW tech and he said the TC takes into account steering input and angle, and if you're not opening the wheel when you're applying the throttle, it'll kick in a lot sooner. If you open the wheeel and throttle, it'll let you slide around a lot more. I was having trouble with opening the wheel too late and applying throttle, and it was kicking in pretty early.
Once I opened the wheel first, and then got on the gas, It allowed me the rear to slide a little and TC did not kick in.


Not directed at the OP in particular, but most posts about the TC interferring are likely due to the driver and not the TC.
.
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
aus is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 05:15 PM   #8
USCTrojanMan29
Captain
 
Drives: Purple People Eater
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Around

Posts: 748
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Not directed at the OP in particular, but most posts about the TC interferring are likely due to the driver and not the TC.
.
+1 TC will usually kick in if you are not smooth with your inputs (especially throttle). Being smooth will help you to go faster without the TC coming on for the most part.
USCTrojanMan29 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 05:19 PM   #9
s4one
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2013 e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: California

Posts: 144
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29 View Post
+1 TC will usually kick in if you are not smooth with your inputs (especially throttle). Being smooth will help you to go faster without the TC coming on for the most part.
TC was kicking in during my turns even when I had no throttle. My instructor told me that he can feel the TC braking on the inside. He told me to try to brake more and go into the turn slower.

I've driven my e46 m3 with TC off and I like it a lot better since there isnt any interference during the fast turns and this lets me feather the gas coming out of the the turn.
s4one is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 05:31 PM   #10
aus
Major General
 
Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

Posts: 7,216
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s4one View Post
TC was kicking in during my turns even when I had no throttle. My instructor told me that he can feel the TC braking on the inside. He told me to try to brake more and go into the turn slower.

I've driven my e46 m3 with TC off and I like it a lot better since there isnt any interference during the fast turns and this lets me feather the gas coming out of the the turn.
That's strange. Not sure why it's kicking in without throttle. Make a vid and post it sometime.
Also keep in mind, the E46 chassis understeers a LOT more than the E9x, which is pretty neurtral and you can definitely kick the tail out easily with throttle.

.
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
aus is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 05:35 PM   #11
s4one
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2013 e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: California

Posts: 144
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
That's strange. Not sure why it's kicking in without throttle. Make a vid and post it sometime.
Also keep in mind, the E46 chassis understeers a LOT more than the E9x, which is pretty neurtral and you can definitely kick the tail out easily with throttle.

.
This is happening with Euro MDM on.
s4one is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 06:00 PM   #12
tom @ eas
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
tom @ eas's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posts: 9,863
iTrader: (13)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by s4one View Post
How much of a difference is there between the two? Main issue for me is that during turns the traction control is interfering too much. Braking during the turn and makes it hard to gas out of the turn since traction control is cutting lower and braking in the inside of the car.

I did big willow before with my e46 m3 with traction control off and it was good, did spin at omega but that is due to the new line that i was testing.

Thanks
Ti-Jean did a great post of MDM in action on the track using the AIM SOLO-DL:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti-Jean View Post
I thought I'd share some data that I collected about euro MDM "interference" on track. I'm not looking to start a debate on the benefits or not to keep MDM on track, just wanted to share some hard data on what it actually does.

Here are 2 videos with associated data taken on the same track, same day, same driver, etc. Only difference is maybe 1 hour apart.

The short conclusion is that MDM will apply brake at individual wheel even if the car is not sliding. I could have understood this wrong initially but I thought that MDM would only kick in after some slip angle was reached by cutting throttle and/or applying brakes.

If you watch the following video, you can tell when MDM is doing something by looking at each wheel brake indicator (bar next to each wheel of the race car). If they light up whithout the brake pedal engaged, MDM is acting.

Few laps with MDM on (Euro MDM) example of MDM kicking in at ~1:03 and ~1:15:


Few laps with DSC Off for reference:


Here is a quick picture showing what to expect when MDM is acting in the first video.
More info in his thread here:

Data showing Euro MDM applying brakes
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=821800

Hope this helps.
__________________
Tom G. | european auto source (eas)
email: tom@europeanautosource.com · web: www.europeanautosource.com · tel 866.669.0705 · ca: 714.369.8524 x22

GET DAILY UPDATES ON OUR BLOG · FACEBOOK · YOUTUBE · FLICKR · INSTAGRAM
tom @ eas is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 06:11 PM   #13
The HACK
Garland Operator 7G
 
The HACK's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2013 Veloster Turbo
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Jerry Brown's little tree-huggin' state

Posts: 3,312
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s4one View Post
...I'd go fast in and slow out...
Quote:
Originally Posted by s4one View Post
My instructor told me that he can feel the TC braking on the inside. He told me to try to brake more and go into the turn slower...


I don't see where the problem is. You're going into a turn "fast in" and the slow out is the natural result. Your in-car instructor told you you need to go in to the turn slower. Solution has been presented to you already.

Car's traction control system isn't kicking in for no reason. It's "holding you back" to save you and your car.

Either you lack a firm grasp on the fundamentals of driving fast, in which case I'd suggest you take your instructor's lessons to heart, or you're having problem conveying the concept of driving fast, in which case, unless your terminologies are corrected, it'll be impossible to "internet drive" your car to find out what is causing said problem.

In either case, I applaud whoever can solve your particular problem over the internet. Sight unseen.
__________________
Quote:
No way I'd ever take my BMW to the track.
Quote:
Then why do you have $3,000 worth of suspension mods on your car?
Quote:
...
-Overheard at the last B****rfest.
The HACK is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 07:14 PM   #14
apecush
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2008 E90 M3
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Edmonton

Posts: 430
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post


I don't see where the problem is. You're going into a turn "fast in" and the slow out is the natural result. Your in-car instructor told you you need to go in to the turn slower. Solution has been presented to you already.
+1 to this. If MDM is braking mid-turn (i.e it is preventing a mid-turn slide), the problem is between the steering wheel and the seat, not with traction control.
apecush is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 07:56 PM   #15
s4one
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2013 e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: California

Posts: 144
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post


I don't see where the problem is. You're going into a turn "fast in" and the slow out is the natural result. Your in-car instructor told you you need to go in to the turn slower. Solution has been presented to you already.

Car's traction control system isn't kicking in for no reason. It's "holding you back" to save you and your car.

Either you lack a firm grasp on the fundamentals of driving fast, in which case I'd suggest you take your instructor's lessons to heart, or you're having problem conveying the concept of driving fast, in which case, unless your terminologies are corrected, it'll be impossible to "internet drive" your car to find out what is causing said problem.

In either case, I applaud whoever can solve your particular problem over the internet. Sight unseen.
I understand what you're saying. I am just comparing the e92 euro mdm vs e46 TC DSC off. e46 m3 TC/DSC off was a lot more fun. I'm just too pussy to do TC off on the e92 since it is my DD.
s4one is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 08:33 PM   #16
s4one
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2013 e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: California

Posts: 144
iTrader: (0)

I agree, I gotta work on it.
s4one is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 09:05 PM   #17
bigjae1976
Takes threads off topic...daily
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Posts: 5,218
iTrader: (11)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post


I don't see where the problem is. You're going into a turn "fast in" and the slow out is the natural result. Your in-car instructor told you you need to go in to the turn slower. Solution has been presented to you already.

Car's traction control system isn't kicking in for no reason. It's "holding you back" to save you and your car.

Either you lack a firm grasp on the fundamentals of driving fast, in which case I'd suggest you take your instructor's lessons to heart, or you're having problem conveying the concept of driving fast, in which case, unless your terminologies are corrected, it'll be impossible to "internet drive" your car to find out what is causing said problem.

In either case, I applaud whoever can solve your particular problem over the internet. Sight unseen.
I would look at it differently. Its not "too fast in" but the car is not balanced when turning in. Usually its not being smooth on the brake release but an abrupt throttle application is a possibility. Too many people want to brake harder and shorter which is the right technique sometimes. More often, a slightly longer braking zone with less pressure will transfer less weight from back to front. So when you turn in, there's more grip on the rear so you can give it more throttle.

I've rode in a couple of euro MDM cars. I don't see the massive difference but I wasn't driving.

My opinion is that the E9X M3, while capable and quick being driven smoothly, really rewards if you can drive with massive slip angles, early apexes and less braking. Meaning throttle steer it. Then the E9X M3 will be one of the fastest cars out there in stock trim, good tires, and good brakes. It will also quickly punish if you don't have the car control to slide the car smoothly.
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
bigjae1976 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2014, 10:12 PM   #18
armyav8tor
n1smo
 
armyav8tor's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Carolina

Posts: 1,425
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post

My opinion is that the E9X M3, while capable and quick being driven smoothly, really rewards if you can drive with massive slip angles, early apexes and less braking. Meaning throttle steer it. Then the E9X M3 will be one of the fastest cars out there in stock trim, good tires, and good brakes. It will also quickly punish if you don't have the car control to slide the car smoothly.
This
armyav8tor is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2014, 12:00 AM   #19
Triple M
Doc Rebel!
 
Triple M's Avatar
 
Drives: Fire Orange M3, X5M, Blk 135
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vegas Baby!

Posts: 178
iTrader: (0)

I've also notice how much car setup e.g. Proper tire pressure, camber and car's ability to settle, turn-in, maintain line, determines TC interference. I think the e9x M3 should be driven stock first on the track before modding to appreciate its balance and TC interference tendencies when riven hard. It's an overweight momentum car :-)) I wonder how people are going to deal with the upcoming torquey M4/M3 :-)
Triple M is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2014, 12:15 AM   #20
okusa
Lieutenant
 
okusa's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 E90 M3 - SSII
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 492
iTrader: (6)

The difference is HUGE. You can absolutely hammer through turns with Euro MDM and the back end stays totally in check. However, all else being equal, with TC off it's spin city.
okusa is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2014, 01:02 AM   #21
admranger
First Lieutenant
 
admranger's Avatar
 
Drives: 2002 M3, 2005 X5, 2011 M3
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 347
iTrader: (0)

Even dumb American MDM is much, much better than E46M3 traction control. You will go through brake pads at a faster rate than w/TC off, but you won't have a "that won't buff out" moment as easily. It can still be done, but you have to run out of talent a lot earlier.

Euro MDM is something I'd like to get coded at some point, but you can go damn fast with stock MDM not interfering. BTDT. You can also spin when you get ham-footed w/TC turned off in the E9XM3. Unfortunately, BTDT. </shame>

bigjae and TripleM are spot on.
__________________
'11 E90 M3, Mebourne/Black/Fox Red/Black, 6MT, PP2, heated seats, moonroof, split folding rear seats, iPod/USB adapter, Technic harness, JL XD 6/600.
'02 E46M3, Imola/Black, 6MT, CWP, no sunroof, Ohlins, Eibachs, PFC DD rotors, PFC pads! HAT Clarus/Legatia speakers, 2 big amps in the back.
'05 X5 4.4i, Imola/Black, Premium, Cold, HAT Imagine 6.5's, Intravee iPod adapter
admranger is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2014, 09:03 AM   #22
jphughan
Brigadier General
 
jphughan's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011.75 M3 E92 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Austin, TX

Posts: 3,228
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
My opinion is that the E9X M3, while capable and quick being driven smoothly, really rewards if you can drive with massive slip angles, early apexes and less braking. Meaning throttle steer it. Then the E9X M3 will be one of the fastest cars out there in stock trim, good tires, and good brakes. It will also quickly punish if you don't have the car control to slide the car smoothly.
What's the benefit of apexing early? I get that it would be POSSIBLE to apex early without incident if you can get enough throttle steer to rotate the car enough to exit the corner successfully, but just thinking about it (and having started to read Ross Bentley's awesome Ultimate Speed Secrets book), I can't think of the advantage of an early apex for most corner scenarios over a geometric line or even a late-apex line to length the upcoming straightaway. But I also know that you know what you're talking about, so I'm curious.
__________________
11 M3 E92 Le Mans | Black Nov w/ Alum | 6MT | Premium 2 | Convenience | 19" | EDC | Prem Audio | Moonroof | BMW Apps | Vorshlag Adjustable Camber Plates | StopTech ST-60 380mm BBK | Castrol SRF Fluid | ModMyNav.com rear camera | OEM Euro Sunglasses Holder
jphughan is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:34 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST