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      01-13-2014, 01:09 PM   #1
s4one
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Euro MDM vs Traction Control OFF

How much of a difference is there between the two? Main issue for me is that during turns the traction control is interfering too much. Braking during the turn and makes it hard to gas out of the turn since traction control is cutting lower and braking in the inside of the car.

I did big willow before with my e46 m3 with traction control off and it was good, did spin at omega but that is due to the new line that i was testing.

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      01-13-2014, 01:23 PM   #2
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Euro MDM is a very noticeable difference, it lets you toss the car around alot.
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      01-13-2014, 01:25 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by LightWerkz View Post
Euro MDM is a very noticeable difference, it lets you toss the car around alot.
indeed.. love the difference !
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      01-13-2014, 01:25 PM   #4
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imo big difference. but if you drive cleanly and not aggressively, you wont notice much.

This is my only car and our track doesn't have great runoff areas, so I don't push it too hard coming out of the corners despite running TC off

imo take it off and slowly work up speed as you get a feel for the cars traction levels
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      01-13-2014, 01:47 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by mkPOTO View Post
indeed.. love the difference !
What do you mean noticeable difference? Meaning with traction control off, I can avoid the car braking during turns and cutting power?

That is the main issue right now, I'd go fast in and slow out due to the traction control braking during my turns. Therefore, I am not able to feather the gas out of the turn since the braking and the power cut off is being interfered by the traction control.
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      01-13-2014, 01:49 PM   #6
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Big difference between Euro MDM and nannies completely off. Smooth throttle, steering and brake input required and don't lift.
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      01-13-2014, 05:12 PM   #7
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My last instructor is a BMW tech and he said the TC takes into account steering input and angle, and if you're not opening the wheel when you're applying the throttle, it'll kick in a lot sooner. If you open the wheeel and throttle, it'll let you slide around a lot more. I was having trouble with opening the wheel too late and applying throttle, and it was kicking in pretty early.
Once I opened the wheel first, and then got on the gas, It allowed me the rear to slide a little and TC did not kick in.


Not directed at the OP in particular, but most posts about the TC interferring are likely due to the driver and not the TC.
.
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      01-13-2014, 05:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Not directed at the OP in particular, but most posts about the TC interferring are likely due to the driver and not the TC.
.
+1 TC will usually kick in if you are not smooth with your inputs (especially throttle). Being smooth will help you to go faster without the TC coming on for the most part.
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      01-13-2014, 05:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29 View Post
+1 TC will usually kick in if you are not smooth with your inputs (especially throttle). Being smooth will help you to go faster without the TC coming on for the most part.
TC was kicking in during my turns even when I had no throttle. My instructor told me that he can feel the TC braking on the inside. He told me to try to brake more and go into the turn slower.

I've driven my e46 m3 with TC off and I like it a lot better since there isnt any interference during the fast turns and this lets me feather the gas coming out of the the turn.
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      01-13-2014, 05:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s4one View Post
TC was kicking in during my turns even when I had no throttle. My instructor told me that he can feel the TC braking on the inside. He told me to try to brake more and go into the turn slower.

I've driven my e46 m3 with TC off and I like it a lot better since there isnt any interference during the fast turns and this lets me feather the gas coming out of the the turn.
That's strange. Not sure why it's kicking in without throttle. Make a vid and post it sometime.
Also keep in mind, the E46 chassis understeers a LOT more than the E9x, which is pretty neurtral and you can definitely kick the tail out easily with throttle.

.
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      01-13-2014, 05:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
That's strange. Not sure why it's kicking in without throttle. Make a vid and post it sometime.
Also keep in mind, the E46 chassis understeers a LOT more than the E9x, which is pretty neurtral and you can definitely kick the tail out easily with throttle.

.
This is happening with Euro MDM on.
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      01-13-2014, 06:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s4one View Post
How much of a difference is there between the two? Main issue for me is that during turns the traction control is interfering too much. Braking during the turn and makes it hard to gas out of the turn since traction control is cutting lower and braking in the inside of the car.

I did big willow before with my e46 m3 with traction control off and it was good, did spin at omega but that is due to the new line that i was testing.

Thanks
Ti-Jean did a great post of MDM in action on the track using the AIM SOLO-DL:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti-Jean View Post
I thought I'd share some data that I collected about euro MDM "interference" on track. I'm not looking to start a debate on the benefits or not to keep MDM on track, just wanted to share some hard data on what it actually does.

Here are 2 videos with associated data taken on the same track, same day, same driver, etc. Only difference is maybe 1 hour apart.

The short conclusion is that MDM will apply brake at individual wheel even if the car is not sliding. I could have understood this wrong initially but I thought that MDM would only kick in after some slip angle was reached by cutting throttle and/or applying brakes.

If you watch the following video, you can tell when MDM is doing something by looking at each wheel brake indicator (bar next to each wheel of the race car). If they light up whithout the brake pedal engaged, MDM is acting.

Few laps with MDM on (Euro MDM) example of MDM kicking in at ~1:03 and ~1:15:


Few laps with DSC Off for reference:


Here is a quick picture showing what to expect when MDM is acting in the first video.
More info in his thread here:

Data showing Euro MDM applying brakes
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=821800

Hope this helps.
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      01-13-2014, 06:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s4one View Post
...I'd go fast in and slow out...
Quote:
Originally Posted by s4one View Post
My instructor told me that he can feel the TC braking on the inside. He told me to try to brake more and go into the turn slower...


I don't see where the problem is. You're going into a turn "fast in" and the slow out is the natural result. Your in-car instructor told you you need to go in to the turn slower. Solution has been presented to you already.

Car's traction control system isn't kicking in for no reason. It's "holding you back" to save you and your car.

Either you lack a firm grasp on the fundamentals of driving fast, in which case I'd suggest you take your instructor's lessons to heart, or you're having problem conveying the concept of driving fast, in which case, unless your terminologies are corrected, it'll be impossible to "internet drive" your car to find out what is causing said problem.

In either case, I applaud whoever can solve your particular problem over the internet. Sight unseen.
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      01-13-2014, 07:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post


I don't see where the problem is. You're going into a turn "fast in" and the slow out is the natural result. Your in-car instructor told you you need to go in to the turn slower. Solution has been presented to you already.
+1 to this. If MDM is braking mid-turn (i.e it is preventing a mid-turn slide), the problem is between the steering wheel and the seat, not with traction control.
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      01-13-2014, 07:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post


I don't see where the problem is. You're going into a turn "fast in" and the slow out is the natural result. Your in-car instructor told you you need to go in to the turn slower. Solution has been presented to you already.

Car's traction control system isn't kicking in for no reason. It's "holding you back" to save you and your car.

Either you lack a firm grasp on the fundamentals of driving fast, in which case I'd suggest you take your instructor's lessons to heart, or you're having problem conveying the concept of driving fast, in which case, unless your terminologies are corrected, it'll be impossible to "internet drive" your car to find out what is causing said problem.

In either case, I applaud whoever can solve your particular problem over the internet. Sight unseen.
I understand what you're saying. I am just comparing the e92 euro mdm vs e46 TC DSC off. e46 m3 TC/DSC off was a lot more fun. I'm just too pussy to do TC off on the e92 since it is my DD.
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      01-13-2014, 08:33 PM   #16
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I agree, I gotta work on it.
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      01-13-2014, 09:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post


I don't see where the problem is. You're going into a turn "fast in" and the slow out is the natural result. Your in-car instructor told you you need to go in to the turn slower. Solution has been presented to you already.

Car's traction control system isn't kicking in for no reason. It's "holding you back" to save you and your car.

Either you lack a firm grasp on the fundamentals of driving fast, in which case I'd suggest you take your instructor's lessons to heart, or you're having problem conveying the concept of driving fast, in which case, unless your terminologies are corrected, it'll be impossible to "internet drive" your car to find out what is causing said problem.

In either case, I applaud whoever can solve your particular problem over the internet. Sight unseen.
I would look at it differently. Its not "too fast in" but the car is not balanced when turning in. Usually its not being smooth on the brake release but an abrupt throttle application is a possibility. Too many people want to brake harder and shorter which is the right technique sometimes. More often, a slightly longer braking zone with less pressure will transfer less weight from back to front. So when you turn in, there's more grip on the rear so you can give it more throttle.

I've rode in a couple of euro MDM cars. I don't see the massive difference but I wasn't driving.

My opinion is that the E9X M3, while capable and quick being driven smoothly, really rewards if you can drive with massive slip angles, early apexes and less braking. Meaning throttle steer it. Then the E9X M3 will be one of the fastest cars out there in stock trim, good tires, and good brakes. It will also quickly punish if you don't have the car control to slide the car smoothly.
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      01-13-2014, 10:12 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post

My opinion is that the E9X M3, while capable and quick being driven smoothly, really rewards if you can drive with massive slip angles, early apexes and less braking. Meaning throttle steer it. Then the E9X M3 will be one of the fastest cars out there in stock trim, good tires, and good brakes. It will also quickly punish if you don't have the car control to slide the car smoothly.
This
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      01-14-2014, 12:00 AM   #19
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I've also notice how much car setup e.g. Proper tire pressure, camber and car's ability to settle, turn-in, maintain line, determines TC interference. I think the e9x M3 should be driven stock first on the track before modding to appreciate its balance and TC interference tendencies when riven hard. It's an overweight momentum car :-)) I wonder how people are going to deal with the upcoming torquey M4/M3 :-)
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      01-14-2014, 12:15 AM   #20
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The difference is HUGE. You can absolutely hammer through turns with Euro MDM and the back end stays totally in check. However, all else being equal, with TC off it's spin city.
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      01-14-2014, 01:02 AM   #21
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Even dumb American MDM is much, much better than E46M3 traction control. You will go through brake pads at a faster rate than w/TC off, but you won't have a "that won't buff out" moment as easily. It can still be done, but you have to run out of talent a lot earlier.

Euro MDM is something I'd like to get coded at some point, but you can go damn fast with stock MDM not interfering. BTDT. You can also spin when you get ham-footed w/TC turned off in the E9XM3. Unfortunately, BTDT. </shame>

bigjae and TripleM are spot on.
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      01-14-2014, 09:03 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
My opinion is that the E9X M3, while capable and quick being driven smoothly, really rewards if you can drive with massive slip angles, early apexes and less braking. Meaning throttle steer it. Then the E9X M3 will be one of the fastest cars out there in stock trim, good tires, and good brakes. It will also quickly punish if you don't have the car control to slide the car smoothly.
What's the benefit of apexing early? I get that it would be POSSIBLE to apex early without incident if you can get enough throttle steer to rotate the car enough to exit the corner successfully, but just thinking about it (and having started to read Ross Bentley's awesome Ultimate Speed Secrets book), I can't think of the advantage of an early apex for most corner scenarios over a geometric line or even a late-apex line to length the upcoming straightaway. But I also know that you know what you're talking about, so I'm curious.
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