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      01-28-2014, 11:01 PM   #67
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Can I ask where you got your 3550lbs weight for the M4? The weight annouced by BMW is 1500kg for the manual and 1540kg for the DCT, that's 180-250lbs lighter then your prediction, curious to know why you think BMW would lie about that! Is it because they underate their engines that you think they also underate their curb weight!?

But seriously, I totally believe the weight announced by BMW since their new philosophy of construction is all about cutting weight! Also I don't think this would be a drivers race between the two(if the new RC-F really weight around 3900lbs) simply because I think the S55 wil have alsmost the same amount of peak power as the Lexus V8 but will have a lot more power under the curve and most importantly A LOT less weight to carry! With the announced weight of the RC-F I think the car will be a closer race to a DCT e9x M3!

p.s. Can't wait to see those cars in action!!
I would also like to know where he got the 3,850 for the lexus. Im guessing the 3,550 is including a human and fluids but shouldn't we do the same for the lexus? 3,850 + human and fluids?

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      01-28-2014, 11:08 PM   #68
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I'm sure the M4 will be underrated - that I don't doubt. I'm also disappointed to find out that earlier reports of 480 hp has now become "at least 450". But, the new RC-F will handily beat any stock E9X M3 since the revised IS-F and E9XM3 became a dead heat after a few suspension revisions.

Right now, we are just speculating. Nobody knows the exact specs and how the cars drive. I'm not in the market for a new car anyways. I'm just enjoying all the different performance cars flooding the market.

Even though the RC-F can't be tuned or FI, at least one thing I know is that they probably left 50+ hp in the restrictive cats and exhaust. My 6 year old IS-F has just headers and exhaust and is already around 470 crank.

BTW, for all of you guys that always say that the 8 speed auto sucks, probably haven't ever driven the IS-F 8 speed in manual mode. Under manual mode, you really can't tell the difference between PDK, DCT, 8 speed auto. I can't tell and it upshifts and downshifts almost the moment I flip the paddle. So, what's all the negativity about the tranny?

So, perhaps the RC-F will be slower but if it wins comparos based on steering, chassis, fun-to-drive, etc.. It'll just be like the old days but reversed when the IS350 handily beat the 330i (a couple of years before the 335 came out).
I don't think anyone thinks the tranny in the Lexus is "bad" we just know how much better the M DCT is.

I guess we will have to wait and see comparos. One thing is for sure though the M4 already beat the Lexus is the looks department LOL.

Also is there any information about the exact hp and lb on the Lexus? Im especially eager to find out the torque figures.
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      01-29-2014, 02:29 AM   #69
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Dont forget the ferocious RS5. That thing is nasty as nasty gets despite the weight. I'll never track a $75k car so weight is irrelevant to me.
lol one of my buddy has that car and I have driven it ALOT. The car lacks the soul of the M and it's HUGE, even comparing to my E90. Torque vectoring system is nice since you can kind of steer using the throttle but still a PIG lol.
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      01-29-2014, 07:32 AM   #70
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I just threw up in my mouth; a little.
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      01-29-2014, 09:44 AM   #71
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Magazine racers.
Not just them,...even forum racers too! Those are the worst, ...
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      01-29-2014, 01:02 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
Can I ask where you got your 3550lbs weight for the M4? The weight annouced by BMW is 1500kg for the manual and 1540kg for the DCT, that's 180-250lbs lighter then your prediction, curious to know why you think BMW would lie about that! Is it because they underate their engines that you think they also underate their curb weight!?
The biggest factor is that most OEMs and most magazines report a curb weight WITH driver and the 1500 kg nonsense is BMWs hype maching reporting figures without driver (and perhaps without fuel). This has been beat to death and is even a sticky here on the forum. 3550 is entirely reasonable for an apples to apples comparison vs. a 3704 lb E92 M3.
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      01-29-2014, 01:06 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothDoc View Post
BTW, for all of you guys that always say that the 8 speed auto sucks, probably haven't ever driven the IS-F 8 speed in manual mode. Under manual mode, you really can't tell the difference between PDK, DCT, 8 speed auto. I can't tell and it upshifts and downshifts almost the moment I flip the paddle. So, what's all the negativity about the tranny?
Automatic transmissions, specifically planetary gear and torque converter units (since some insist on calling DCT/DSG and automatic...) have quietly and vastly improved right along in parallel with their automated manual counter parts. With fully locking clutches in addition to torque converters, along with some great software the practical differences between the two are absolutely fading away.
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      01-29-2014, 01:17 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
Can I ask where you got your 3550lbs weight for the M4? The weight annouced by BMW is 1500kg for the manual and 1540kg for the DCT, that's 180-250lbs lighter then your prediction, curious to know why you think BMW would lie about that! Is it because they underate their engines that you think they also underate their curb weight!?
The biggest factor is that most OEMs and most magazines report a curb weight WITH driver and the 1500 kg nonsense is BMWs hype maching reporting figures without driver (and perhaps without fuel). This has been beat to death and is even a sticky here on the forum. 3550 is entirely reasonable for an apples to apples comparison vs. a 3704 lb E92 M3.
So what you say is that most magazine will put the E9x M3 at more then 1700kg because they include the drivers weight!? We probably don't read the same magazines cause all I see is weight without drivers, and that makes a lot more sense since every driver does'nt weight the same!

And by the way, the announced figures by BMW are with 90% fuel and no driver! Free to you to believe it or not but I don't see any good reasons for them to publicly lie about the weight of their cars!
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      01-29-2014, 01:31 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Maddict3 View Post
I would also like to know where he got the 3,850 for the lexus. Im guessing the 3,550 is including a human and fluids but shouldn't we do the same for the lexus? 3,850 + human and fluids?

The official press release from Lexus: http://www.lexus.com/concept/RCF/_pdf/RCF-2.pdf

"Less than 3968lbs" is the targeted weight.
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      01-29-2014, 02:27 PM   #76
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I would also like to know where he got the 3,850 for the lexus. Im guessing the 3,550 is including a human and fluids but shouldn't we do the same for the lexus? 3,850 + human and fluids?

The official press release from Lexus: http://www.lexus.com/concept/RCF/_pdf/RCF-2.pdf

"Less than 3968lbs" is the targeted weight.
lol, kind of precise and not precise at the same time!
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      01-29-2014, 03:42 PM   #77
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lol, kind of precise and not precise at the same time!
A lot of upcoming releases are that way now: approximate. Too much good stuff coming out and companies don't want to tip their hand Take the upcoming Z06, for example. Estimates only, no confirmation on actual numbers.
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      01-29-2014, 10:21 PM   #78
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That's what baffles me when people have relentlessly complained about e90 m3s weight when the weight is right at 3500-3550 as confirmed by the above poster with duct. This is only 100 pounds heavier than the e46 and
I am positive the f80 will realistically weigh 3500 pounds at least with duct. Maybe more. So there really us no weight loss. People don't understand numbers. Eu kerb or unladen is 160 pound driver, 20 pounds of fuel(5gallons), and and 20 pounds cargo. That's 200 pounds that needs to be subtracted from the quited 3700 pounds and comes in exactly where people are seeing on scales.

3550 is damn light considering corvette is even 3300 pounds these days.

On the Lexus topic, I will likely get this car to add to e92. 5l v8 revving to
7600 ROMs with a tune easy and making 500 plus his a much more rewarding driving experience than turbo M3.no doubt m will be faster but for those of us who don't race our cars, most would enjoy the screaming exhaust of high revving v8, the sound alone. The instant throttle response and the fun of driving it in high rpm to extract power.

Love the new f
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      01-29-2014, 10:28 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
So what you say is that most magazine will put the E9x M3 at more then 1700kg because they include the drivers weight!? We probably don't read the same magazines cause all I see is weight without drivers, and that makes a lot more sense since every driver does'nt weight the same!

And by the way, the announced figures by BMW are with 90% fuel and no driver! Free to you to believe it or not but I don't see any good reasons for them to publicly lie about the weight of their cars!
Show me all the weights you have seen listing M3 weight stated without driver? If you read the thread currb weight/unladen is what all sources quoted and it standardizes to include a 68kg driver, 15-20 pounds of fuel and 15 pounds luggage. Of course random drivers weight differently but ttgats irrelevant.

And if you search or read page 2, someone weighed their car and it was 3550 with fully loaded dct. This is prime example if so wine unable to understand simple data and then propagate erroneous opinions that the car is 3700 pounds and wayyy to big. Show me any non supercar that weighs close to 3500? F80 will be no lighter. They marketed the 3300 pounds without driver, luggage and fuel vs marketing e90 with all of that. It will come in at 3500 a
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      01-29-2014, 11:15 PM   #80
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So what you say is that most magazine will put the E9x M3 at more then 1700kg because they include the drivers weight!? We probably don't read the same magazines cause all I see is weight without drivers, and that makes a lot more sense since every driver does'nt weight the same!

And by the way, the announced figures by BMW are with 90% fuel and no driver! Free to you to believe it or not but I don't see any good reasons for them to publicly lie about the weight of their cars!
Yes, that is what I said and it is the case. Now these are just the big American mags but they all report with a driver.

Car and Driver, 2008 E92 M3: 3704 lb. Link.
Motortrend, 2008 E92 M3: 3678 lb. Link.
Road and Track, 2008 E92 M3: 3650 lb (est). Link.

BMW on BMWUSA.com reports weights with 90% fuel, 68 kg driver (standardized whether or not we all weigh the same amount) 7 kg of cargo and options which are present on some significant portion of all cars (perhaps 33% IIRC). This figure for the E92 M3 with M-DCT is 3704 lb. When BWM reports 1500 kg / 3300 lb for the new M4 is it indeed without driver, thus this is inconsistent with their own website. So no, not lying, but playing games and getting folks excited over an apples to apples comparison. A more accurate claims is that the new M4 is 80 kg lighter than a similarly equipped E92 M3.

All of this points to about 3550 lb for the M4 in an APPLES TO APPLES comparison with the E92 M3 at 3704 lb.
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      01-29-2014, 11:18 PM   #81
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I would also like to know where he got the 3,850 for the lexus. Im guessing the 3,550 is including a human and fluids but shouldn't we do the same for the lexus? 3,850 + human and fluids?
No Lexus is most likely not playing the same BS marketing games with the weight of the RC-F. Their numbers are almost for sure with fuel and driver. I might be optimistic at 3850 but without a ton of options that very well might be possible. I hope they under promise and over deliver, precisely the opposite of what BMW is doing...
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      01-29-2014, 11:34 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
So what you say is that most magazine will put the E9x M3 at more then 1700kg because they include the drivers weight!? We probably don't read the same magazines cause all I see is weight without drivers, and that makes a lot more sense since every driver does'nt weight the same!

And by the way, the announced figures by BMW are with 90% fuel and no driver! Free to you to believe it or not but I don't see any good reasons for them to publicly lie about the weight of their cars!
Yes, that is what I said and it is the case. Now these are just the big American mags but they all report with a driver.

Car and Driver, 2008 E92 M3: 3704 lb. Link.
Motortrend, 2008 E92 M3: 3678 lb. Link.
Road and Track, 2008 E92 M3: 3650 lb (est). Link.

BMW on BMWUSA.com reports weights with 90% fuel, 68 kg driver (standardized whether or not we all weigh the same amount) 7 kg of cargo and options which are present on some significant portion of all cars (perhaps 33% IIRC). This figure for the E92 M3 with M-DCT is 3704 lb. When BWM reports 1500 kg / 3300 lb for the new M4 is it indeed without driver, thus this is inconsistent with their own website. So no, not lying, but playing games and getting folks excited over an apples to apples comparison. A more accurate claims is that the new M4 is 80 kg lighter than a similarly equipped E92 M3.

All of this points to about 3550 lb for the M4 in an APPLES TO APPLES comparison with the E92 M3 at 3704 lb.
From what I remember, I mostly saw 1620kg for the manual and 1655kg for the DCT e92(whitout driver)!

In this comparo C&D weighted a manual e92 M3 at 3571lbs without driver, that's almost exactly 1620kg, you want a bet even a DCT M4 wont be this heavy!?
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-bmw-m3-page-4

here they quotes 1655kg for a DCT
http://www.automobile-sportive.com/g...erline-e90.php
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      01-30-2014, 12:01 AM   #83
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That's what baffles me when people have relentlessly complained about e90 m3s weight when the weight is right at 3500-3550 as confirmed by the above poster with duct. This is only 100 pounds heavier than the e46 and
I am positive the f80 will realistically weigh 3500 pounds at least with duct. Maybe more. So there really us no weight loss. People don't understand numbers. Eu kerb or unladen is 160 pound driver, 20 pounds of fuel(5gallons), and and 20 pounds cargo. That's 200 pounds that needs to be subtracted from the quited 3700 pounds and comes in exactly where people are seeing on scales.

3550 is damn light considering corvette is even 3300 pounds these days.

On the Lexus topic, I will likely get this car to add to e92. 5l v8 revving to
7600 ROMs with a tune easy and making 500 plus his a much more rewarding driving experience than turbo M3.no doubt m will be faster but for those of us who don't race our cars, most would enjoy the screaming exhaust of high revving v8, the sound alone. The instant throttle response and the fun of driving it in high rpm to extract power.

Love the new f
OH God! you're one of those.. how can you determine the Lexus is more rewarding to drive if you havent driven any of them.

All this "OMG WTF are BMW doing going to turbo engines!! The end of the V8" makes me laugh. It happened when the M5 went from a V10 to a twin turbo V8 little did we know that the f10 M5 shits on the old m5
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      01-30-2014, 12:12 AM   #84
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Speed and acceleration is not the most important thing to everyone. I much much prefer the e60 m5 over f10 as I've driven both many times. Once you are in 450 HP land, it becomes more interesting and enjoyable to have an amazing exhaust and intake soundtrack and to enjoy working the engine to get power out at high revs. Maybe I'm the only one but to me that makes for w much more enjoyable driver. Of course the new M3 will embaras the e90. No question. But irrelevant. My tuned cat less dct is as fast as I can handle on streets while still able to wind out revs in a few gears. The f10 for example, you are over 75 mph in 2 seconds and to me that is boring after novelty wears off

UOTE=Maddict3;15358653]OH God! you're one of those.. how can you determine the Lexus is more rewarding to drive if you havent driven any of them.

All this "OMG WTF are BMW doing going to turbo engines!! The end of the V8" makes me laugh. It happened when the M5 went from a V10 to a twin turbo V8 little did we know that the f10 M5 shits on the old m5[/quote]
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      01-30-2014, 06:29 PM   #85
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From what I remember, I mostly saw 1620kg for the manual and 1655kg for the DCT e92(whitout driver)!

In this comparo C&D weighted a manual e92 M3 at 3571lbs without driver, that's almost exactly 1620kg, you want a bet even a DCT M4 wont be this heavy!?
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-bmw-m3-page-4

here they quotes 1655kg for a DCT
http://www.automobile-sportive.com/g...erline-e90.php
Not sure where you are going with your reply. The M4 with driver, which is the most apples to apples way to report the weight, will be around 3350, as I stated prior. The E92 M3 M- DCT is around 3700 lb with driver as reported by all major US magazines. In both cases the MT is lighter than the M-DCT and it is reported that that gap has widened a bit for the M4 as the new MT is lighter but the M-DCT is perhaps heavier.
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      01-30-2014, 10:36 PM   #86
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Not sure where you are going with your reply. The M4 with driver, which is the most apples to apples way to report the weight, will be around 3350, as I stated prior. The E92 M3 M- DCT is around 3700 lb with driver as reported by all major US magazines. In both cases the MT is lighter than the M-DCT and it is reported that that gap has widened a bit for the M4 as the new MT is lighter but the M-DCT is perhaps heavier.
You think with driver and dct it will be 3350? Not a chance as its already been posted that without driver and dct is 3470 roughly. We are talking 160-180 pounds less than dct e92. Dct weighs a lot more and IRS simply not that much light. 3470 is no driver. Add 70kg driver, 6kg luggage and 5 gallons fas and you are near 3590. So 150 pound less. Hardly amazing
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      01-30-2014, 10:38 PM   #87
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By the way the new c7 Yvette has curb weight of 3550 with auto tranny. Only 150 less than e92. Hardly anyone would say a vetrd CIA over weiggt
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      01-31-2014, 03:28 AM   #88
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You think with driver and dct it will be 3350? Not a chance as its already been posted that without driver and dct is 3470 roughly. We are talking 160-180 pounds less than dct e92. Dct weighs a lot more and IRS simply not that much light. 3470 is no driver. Add 70kg driver, 6kg luggage and 5 gallons fas and you are near 3590. So 150 pound less. Hardly amazing
3550, 3590, we're splitting hairs. This does not make any measurable difference in performance. BMW has said 80 kg lighter than a similarly equipped E92 M3 which is 3704 lb (which is a nicely optioned car). That, less 80 kg, is about 3530. 3550 is roughly in the middle of that range. It is not going to have second digit of 4 nor will it have a second digit of 6. The rest is a bit academic.

Now that being said, if you are personally svelte, get no options on your car and get the CSiC brakes, the second digit will most likely dip down to 4.
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