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      01-11-2014, 12:36 AM   #23
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I was there, mini's doors basically flew open and pealed away, letting arms and legs of passengers (student and instructor) get crushed by the car as it rolled over. They are lucky their torsos did not make it outside.

Second incident at willow springs, same thing happened, but driver was killed when his torso exited the vehicle while rolling.

It was pretty obvious to me, after seeing how the passengers were injured at TWS, I will never ride in a Mini on a track at high speed. Sucks because it could have been a freak accident/or the new models fixed, but seeing that car, it was so obvious in your gut that the car just failed those guys when they needed to be protected.
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      01-13-2014, 02:04 PM   #24
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I was there, mini's doors basically flew open and pealed away, letting arms and legs of passengers (student and instructor) get crushed by the car as it rolled over. They are lucky their torsos did not make it outside.

Second incident at willow springs, same thing happened, but driver was killed when his torso exited the vehicle while rolling.

It was pretty obvious to me, after seeing how the passengers were injured at TWS, I will never ride in a Mini on a track at high speed. Sucks because it could have been a freak accident/or the new models fixed, but seeing that car, it was so obvious in your gut that the car just failed those guys when they needed to be protected.
I was not present for any incidents at TWS but did hear about them.. and I have seen racing footage of the first GeN new MINI with doors coming off... I believe Speed World Challenge at Barber..

They did stay on the vehicle however in this crash with multiple rolls. Not sure if it is a GEN II model.

http://www.motoringfile.com/2010/05/...allenge-crash/
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      01-21-2014, 10:54 PM   #25
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Damn, I want to make this event soooooo bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wait listed for Saturday. No Tier 1 or 2 privilege
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      02-01-2014, 06:13 PM   #26
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I can't make this one...already committed to Driver's Edge. But a LOT cheaper than the other event right now!
Driver's Edge doesn't have an event on Texas Trifecta weekend....

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I would think that a hard top would work but just curious as to the reason behind that. Understand the issue with soft tops.
My guess as to why even hardtops aren't allowed is because unlike a fixed roof car, the top of a hardtop convertible is not an integral part of its body structure, and therefore if your car were lying on its side and another car hit your roof head-on, a convertible hardtop wouldn't give you nearly as much protection as a fixed roof. The convertible top is simply a shell resting on top of the body, and therefore in that scenario it wouldn't be able to transmit the force of that impact very efficiently at all to the rest of the body for absorption, which means it would likely crumple in on you. On a fixed roof car though, the roof and the body are a single piece and thus the force of the impact can be distributed across a much wider area of the car. My understanding is that that type of scenario is precisely what a roll cage is designed to protect against (despite the name), since any modern car's roof can resist the forces typically exerted on it during a rollover.

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I purchased my M3 Convertible because it is a high performance vehicle. None of the brochures from BWM ///M had an * that read "It's got our safest technology, but you can't use it at BMW-oriented events in the USA -- sorry, sukka!"

Anyhow, I will continue to vote against all of the incumbents until the BMWCCA Board of Directors approves BMW convertibles in at least some fashion for use. (i.e. Allow closed-only-mode on convertibles equipped with ROPS.)
Run with The Driver's Edge if you want to track a convertible. As long as you have fixed or pop-up rollover protection (which the E93 does) they let you run. In the meantime, if you really are going to vote with your, well, votes, you may want to target your efforts a little more precisely than a blanket boycott of the existing Board, since some of them may share your views about convertibles on the track.

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      02-02-2014, 12:02 AM   #27
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Driver's Edge doesn't have an event on Texas Trifecta weekend....
When I typed that, they did. It was rescheduled. Now I just need to get back home to send out a check...whatever that is.
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      02-02-2014, 09:20 PM   #28
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I really want to do this event as well. But it looks like the lowest class group is sold out. I have done a dozen track days in other cars but not the M3 yet....dying to get it on the track but not many MSR or Eagles Canyon open events and I really don't have the time to sit through a Drivers Edge or weekend course for the entire weekend.

Not sure if I could do the level II or I think it was blue group or if I would be too slow.
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      02-03-2014, 09:23 AM   #29
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I really want to do this event as well. But it looks like the lowest class group is sold out. I have done a dozen track days in other cars but not the M3 yet....dying to get it on the track but not many MSR or Eagles Canyon open events and I really don't have the time to sit through a Drivers Edge or weekend course for the entire weekend.

Not sure if I could do the level II or I think it was blue group or if I would be too slow.
A dozen days I imagine would qualify you for Yellow, though if you're unfamiliar with the car I'd just plan to be in the slower segment of Yellow to get a feel for it and simply have a good time. I'd honestly try to make time for a Driver's Edge weekend though. It's a great group and they specifically stopped offering single-day events because they found that students simply didn't retain much of what they learned in a single day, and thus for example six individual days didn't get them nearly as far as 3 full weekends. I like the two-day format because the first day is primarily figuring out what I need to work on and the second is about really focusing on improving in those areas.
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      02-04-2014, 05:51 PM   #30
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When I typed that, they did. It was rescheduled. Now I just need to get back home to send out a check...whatever that is.
Chase Quick pay for the win.....

Registrars have you on the " bad " list...
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      02-04-2014, 09:42 PM   #31
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Chase Quick pay for the win.....

Registrars have you on the " bad " list...
I've been far away from my checkbook. Will be until Thurs.
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      02-05-2014, 02:34 PM   #32
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A dozen days I imagine would qualify you for Yellow, though if you're unfamiliar with the car I'd just plan to be in the slower segment of Yellow to get a feel for it and simply have a good time. I'd honestly try to make time for a Driver's Edge weekend though. It's a great group and they specifically stopped offering single-day events because they found that students simply didn't retain much of what they learned in a single day, and thus for example six individual days didn't get them nearly as far as 3 full weekends. I like the two-day format because the first day is primarily figuring out what I need to work on and the second is about really focusing on improving in those areas.
Agree with you on two day format. I agree that for most novice and intermediate and lower level advanced group drivers , they are re-familiarizing with the course and the course conditions for that event (cold, wet, dry, hot, etc) the first two or three sessions. This is ESPECIALLY the case if one is going to a new track. It's going to take a few sessions to learn the new course.... and the drivers that know the course already will have less of a learning curve. Once the driver has their bearings and is confortable then they can learn more.

As far as the # of days to get to yellow... there is no magic # but I would say 12 days (6 events) is a pretty rapid rise from green to an advanced level. There are simply many concepts to be learned, and then CONFIRMED that the driver knows these concepts...



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I really want to do this event as well. But it looks like the lowest class group is sold out. I have done a dozen track days in other cars but not the M3 yet....dying to get it on the track but not many MSR or Eagles Canyon open events and I really don't have the time to sit through a Drivers Edge or weekend course for the entire weekend.

Not sure if I could do the level II or I think it was blue group or if I would be too slow.
We have room remaining in the (A) White and (B) Yellow run groups which are both for advanced drivers. Indeed, the C groups if for Blue level drivers. It seems that you are not sold on 2 day events.... and while I understand the advantages of single day events... (cheaper.. less time.. etc) there is a unfortunately a tendency for many drivers to attend single day events or lapping day events a little too early in their careers.

A single day lapping event or member day at a member track should be something one does after they have attended several events. While one can learn some items at a lapping day.. unfortunately these events skip a lot of the basics to save on expenses..

- limited or NO corner workers
- limited or NO flags being displayed
- limited or NO instruction
- limited supervision of drivers - are they being courteous? are they giving proper passing signals? Receiving passing signals? or is it a race down the straight?
- limited development of skill sets - Is the driver SEEING flags? aware of their importance? is the driver apexing early? prperly? using heel and toe properly? trail braking? left foot braking? How does oanyone know ? How does the driver know ?

The simple fact is that lapping days can reinforce bad behaviors, or allow a driver to train themselves with undesirable behaviors. For example.. if one does say.. 3 events with instruction... and then is solo'd.... and does a bunch of lapping days... Are they PREPARED or AWARE of flags or are they used to blasting around because there normally are not corner workers.. ? Did those 3 events with instruction just focus on learning the course and getting around the track... but what of other skills?

In my experience.. a person that has developed by attending a single track repeatedly , still has a fairly limited skill set based on the types of turns at that track. Throw in unique corners (multiple apex.. diamond turns.. hairpins) , unique speeds, elevation change (particularly blind corners), walls, armco or fencing etc.. .... and suddenly there is a lot more to learn than what exists at say.. an MSR Houston. Even the difference in elevation change between MSR Cresson 3.1 and say... ECR is significant .. because ECR has no truly completely blind full throttle turns or hills like the entry to the " toilet bowl" on the MSR 3.1.

Finally... it's important to recognize that going to a single track and moving to an advanced level at that one track, does not make the driver an ADVANCED level driver at another track... Typically it's wise to move one run group lower at a track that one is not familiar with, so that you will have time to learn the new course while not being harrased by other drivers that know the track because they have been there 40 times.

Points to Ponder..
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      02-05-2014, 04:41 PM   #33
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Agree with you on two day format. I agree that for most novice and intermediate and lower level advanced group drivers , they are re-familiarizing with the course and the course conditions for that event (cold, wet, dry, hot, etc) the first two or three sessions. This is ESPECIALLY the case if one is going to a new track. It's going to take a few sessions to learn the new course.... and the drivers that know the course already will have less of a learning curve. Once the driver has their bearings and is confortable then they can learn more.

As far as the # of days to get to yellow... there is no magic # but I would say 12 days (6 events) is a pretty rapid rise from green to an advanced level. There are simply many concepts to be learned, and then CONFIRMED that the driver knows these concepts...

In my experience.. a person that has developed by attending a single track repeatedly , still has a fairly limited skill set based on the types of turns at that track. Throw in unique corners (multiple apex.. diamond turns.. hairpins) , unique speeds, elevation change (particularly blind corners), walls, armco or fencing etc.. .... and suddenly there is a lot more to learn than what exists at say.. an MSR Houston. Even the difference in elevation change between MSR Cresson 3.1 and say... ECR is significant .. because ECR has no truly completely blind full throttle turns or hills like the entry to the " toilet bowl" on the MSR 3.1.

Finally... it's important to recognize that going to a single track and moving to an advanced level at that one track, does not make the driver an ADVANCED level driver at another track... Typically it's wise to move one run group lower at a track that one is not familiar with, so that you will have time to learn the new course while not being harrased by other drivers that know the track because they have been there 40 times.

Points to Ponder..
Great post! I based the 12 day estimate on my own experience. Working with Driver's Edge, I was in Green for two weekends, then Blue for two weekends, after which I was certified for Yellow specifically for TWS CCW. It then happened that I spent 3 more weekends in Blue because my next event was TWS CW (for the first time), then the next event was CCW but Yellow was full so no new-to-Yellow students were allowed in, and then I ran CW again -- which earned me Yellow qualification for that direction as well. I've since run a weekend in Yellow in each direction (after which I was promoted to Yellow Solo for CCW), just ran my first Yellow Solo recently, and will be back there on March 1-2 before this event. I have no idea whether my progression is faster or slower than average since I haven't really asked others how quickly they've moved up through run groups, but I'm told by various instructors that Driver's Edge tends to be more hardcore than other organizers. I do appreciate that they always have great instructors, informative classes, corner workers, and emergency workers available. It helps you learn a lot more and stay much safer than not having those things. It also means that insurance coverage is available, whereas open track days you're generally on your own in that regard.

The point about being advanced on a particular track not translating 100% to a new one makes perfect sense. My problem is that being in Austin means that every track except TWS (and the rarely available CotA) is over 3 hours away, which is quite a commitment especially Sunday evening when you're already dog tired from an entire weekend at the track before you even hit the road home. I did run MSR Cresson back in Green once though because a friend wanted to check out the track and that was the event that fit in his schedule. I'm lucky that TWS can be run in both directions, so I get SOME of the benefits of multiple tracks, but of course it's not the same as completely separate tracks. Still, I think the vast majority of participants will be new to CotA anyway simply because there haven't been many opportunities to run it (and most of the available events have been absurdly expensive), so the issue of run group on one track not fully carrying over should affect most participants. I caught rides during last year's CCA event and I'll be studying videos closely in preparation for my weekend, and when I'm there I'll at least have the car control and track awareness skills I've developed elsewhere even if the track itself won't be terribly familiar. But I don't time myself and I'm just out there to have a great time, so I have absolutely no problem dialing it back a bit.
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      02-05-2014, 08:20 PM   #34
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We have room remaining in the (A) White and (B) Yellow run groups which are both for advanced drivers. Indeed, the C groups if for Blue level drivers. It seems that you are not sold on 2 day events.... and while I understand the advantages of single day events... (cheaper.. less time.. etc) there is a unfortunately a tendency for many drivers to attend single day events or lapping day events a little too early in their careers.

A single day lapping event or member day at a member track should be something one does after they have attended several events. While one can learn some items at a lapping day.. unfortunately these events skip a lot of the basics to save on expenses.
Especially when I was blue it took an entire day to get the retard out. I think how fast you can get back to where you left off at the last event is a good measure (not the only!) of development towards becoming an unconscious competent.

So I don't think 1 day events are useful for development purposes. They can be fun though!
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      02-06-2014, 09:18 AM   #35
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Ok, so bottom line... The beginner class of Trifecta is sold out and not an option?
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      02-06-2014, 12:15 PM   #36
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Ok, so bottom line... The beginner class of Trifecta is sold out and not an option?
You can always hop onto the wait list (no idea how long that is at the moment), but yes unless there are cancellations, it's not an option.
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      02-18-2014, 05:16 PM   #37
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I'll see you guys there Saturday and Sunday, would love to meet and greet.
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      02-18-2014, 07:08 PM   #38
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I really want to do this event as well. But it looks like the lowest class group is sold out. I have done a dozen track days in other cars but not the M3 yet....dying to get it on the track but not many MSR or Eagles Canyon open events and I really don't have the time to sit through a Drivers Edge or weekend course for the entire weekend.

Not sure if I could do the level II or I think it was blue group or if I would be too slow.
Come to Eagles Canyon this Saturday - they took my registration today.

I think the lowest run group at CoTA this year is intermediate.
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      02-19-2014, 09:55 PM   #39
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nice. Eagles canyon this week. Are you going?
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      02-20-2014, 11:02 PM   #40
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nice. Eagles canyon this week. Are you going?
I'll be there - I believe they may have a few spots left. Give Maggie a call. Looks to be in the 70s.
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      02-21-2014, 03:53 PM   #41
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I'll be there as well. I was hoping I could use this time as a chance to sort the new setup but parts didn't make it in time. But since the weather is nice I'll go anyway.
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      02-21-2014, 06:17 PM   #42
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I'll be there as well. I was hoping I could use this time as a chance to sort the new setup but parts didn't make it in time. But since the weather is nice I'll go anyway.
I went to ECR last weekend on Sunday. Looks like my friend Bruce is coming up so 50/50 chance I will go up as well. Not sure if I will drive or just watch since I was there this week already.
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      02-27-2014, 01:00 AM   #43
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Ok, so bottom line... The beginner class of Trifecta is sold out and not an option?

are you on the wait list? there are a few spots in yellow and white.. the wait list for blue has had some movement recently..
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      02-28-2014, 10:22 PM   #44
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are you on the wait list? there are a few spots in yellow and white.. the wait list for blue has had some movement recently..

Are peeps dropping out?
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