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      12-12-2013, 11:06 PM   #67
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I'm sure the S55 is really putting out something closer to 450hp with the way they've always under rated their blown engines, but keep in mind the S65 maybe putting out closer to 425-430 with updated STOCK software.

As for the driving experience, the S55 will be much better for daily driving if BMW has been able to get rid of the lag as you're pulling away from the light. The N54 is pretty dead until around 1,600 RPM.
Now if you're talking on the track, the N54 would start to run out of breath after 6,000 RPM and that's when the S65 just starts to really open up and sing. Looking at the dyno graphs, it looks like the S55 will also start to run out of breath around 6,000 RPM. In the end, 97% of the owners will never take either to the track, so they'll all gush about how much faster the F80/82 is. And they'll be absolutely right because it's street driving.

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      12-12-2013, 11:31 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09 View Post
I'd expect the power numbers to be a bit underrated. Numbers aside though, from a roll on race I wouldn't be surprised to see a stock m4 leave even a full bolt on e9x in the dust.

For many the newness and excitement of a new m3/4 is reason enough to upgrade.

And for reviews they'll likely go along with the lines of "great car, but more insulated and not as 'raw' as the previous version."
tahts why us guys who will still have an e90 when the f80 starts swarming la need BBK and SC
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      12-13-2013, 01:16 AM   #69
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M3/M4 is going to be the Shit, ask yourself was the last Gen anywhere near the e92? Hell NO the E9= blows out the the earlier models and it will be the same for the next Gen. M3/M4.
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      12-13-2013, 03:57 AM   #70
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I will always love the e9x m3, but other than exhaust note the F8x M cars will be better in every way.

If not then I'll add an e9x m3 as a 3rd car, win/win for me
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      12-13-2013, 04:21 AM   #71
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I am not sure about the traction with so much torque available.

on my E92 M3 I had serious problems putting down all the power in 1st, 2nd and sometimes even in the 3rd gear, and the torque was much less...

I am sure the new M3 will be spin-city off the line if you dare taking-off agressively
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      12-13-2013, 06:39 AM   #72
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I can guarantee that the new M3/M4 will be a good deal faster in every possible category from out e9x. The e9x will always have the sound benefit in my eyes and most likely the majority of people. What I am worried about and what not a lot of people are mentioning is the electronic steering. I am not against the electronic steering as I love it in my 991s. Just from BMW current models their electronic steering is terrible. While it's slightly improved on the M5/M6 it still detracts so much from the driving feel. Traction is something else to consider having all that power is nothing if you can't put it down. While I am sure the tcs system will stop you from going into a tree I don't want any ass end kick out while going through the gears. When I test drove the M6 the ass end kicked out in each gear with the tcs still on. For me this is a waste I would much rather have a lower hp/tq car that has the abilities to keep all the power to the ground.
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      12-13-2013, 08:15 AM   #73
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The F10 M5 is hydraulic assist.

I'm just glad the cars are lighter. I'll be looking forward to an F80 M3 sedan when the lease is up on my 328. If I'm lucky the current 3/4 series will see an LCI by then.
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      12-13-2013, 08:18 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridin135 View Post
When I test drove the M6 the ass end kicked out in each gear with the tcs still on. For me this is a waste I would much rather have a lower hp/tq car that has the abilities to keep all the power to the ground.

But this is what separates a good driver from a GREAT driver. You learn your car and tame the beast. You test drove it ONCE. If it was yours...you would get better each day, guranteed! Every race car ever made will send a normal driver off the track and into a wall. If you learn your cars limits (and your own), then you should be golden!
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      12-13-2013, 08:30 AM   #75
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Other than the engine its surely worth it in all ways to upgrade. Even the inline 6 TT ill come to love very quickly Im sure.
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      12-13-2013, 08:31 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreeKon View Post
But this is what separates a good driver from a GREAT driver. You learn your car and tame the beast. You test drove it ONCE. If it was yours...you would get better each day, guranteed! Every race car ever made will send a normal driver off the track and into a wall. If you learn your cars limits (and your own), then you should be golden!
I wasn't talking about controlling the power just doing a flat out acceleration. Every time I went flat out on a straight road the cars ass end slid out a hair at every shift. Modulating the throttle for out of corner acceleration I don't see being a problem just the straight line shifts that other me.
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      12-13-2013, 08:40 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spr View Post
Overlay the M4 curve with a full bolt on m3 of intake, bypass pipes, tune and pullies to end the debate.
whats the difference? the shape looks the same either way. the point remains that turbo cars make much more average power throughout the powerband, not just at the very top end. we will see when the official tested numbers come out. but bmw themselves quotes huge increases in performance between this car and the e9x, and I believe that will materialize.

also comparing modded to stock and modded to modded muddies up the waters. its not like you wont be able to modify the s55 should you choose to.

See the two attached graphs to see what I mean. Colored in is the difference in average power under the curve between the f80 m3 and e92 and another with the n54 from the 1m vs a tuned e92 m3.

Clearly the s65 is badass, and I love it. But in terms of acceleration and power under the curve, its easy to see how the f80 m3 is superior.
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      12-13-2013, 10:58 AM   #78
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^ Its plain as day. The M4 makes power everywhere acc to those graphs
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      12-13-2013, 11:26 AM   #79
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Look, it's obvious the 1M was BMW's experiment.

Let's see what happens.

Note: If price was no object, I bet everyone here would be driving a 991s.
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      12-13-2013, 03:26 PM   #80
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Comes down to engine/throttle response, steering feel, and track reliability for me.

And I hope Akrapovic fixes the sound deficiency.

I've seen others state that the optimal shift point for acceleration will be ~6k rpm's with the F80. I'm not good enough with gearing/hp/tq to know if that's accurate. Anyone more knowledgeable weigh in?
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      12-13-2013, 03:29 PM   #81
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To answer OP's question the answer is simply: YES!

Also finally M4 is fast and advanced enough to kill any potential future 435 vs M4 discussions!
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      12-13-2013, 04:07 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
whats the difference? the shape looks the same either way. the point remains that turbo cars make much more average power throughout the powerband, not just at the very top end. we will see when the official tested numbers come out. but bmw themselves quotes huge increases in performance between this car and the e9x, and I believe that will materialize.

also comparing modded to stock and modded to modded muddies up the waters. its not like you wont be able to modify the s55 should you choose to.

See the two attached graphs to see what I mean. Colored in is the difference in average power under the curve between the f80 m3 and e92 and another with the n54 from the 1m vs a tuned e92 m3.

Clearly the s65 is badass, and I love it. But in terms of acceleration and power under the curve, its easy to see how the f80 m3 is superior.

I understand what you are showing and it's obvious that the new turbo engine will make more power under the curve.

With that said, it's a little misleading if you don't move the engine operating RPMs around a little on the graph, especially for the N54 vs. S65 picture. In other words, if you could show horsepower vs. road speed for the optimal gear it would give the best comparison. I know this is hard to do but it describes why the graphs are slightly misleading when comparing cars with different gearing and different engine operating RPMs.
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      12-13-2013, 04:15 PM   #83
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Depending on reliability and how these cars are depreciating, the M4 might be worth the upgrade in a few years. Until then I'm thrilled with my M3
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      12-13-2013, 04:21 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProbyOne View Post
I understand what you are showing and it's obvious that the new turbo engine will make more power under the curve.

With that said, it's a little misleading if you don't move the engine operating RPMs around a little on the graph, especially for the N54 vs. S65 picture. In other words, if you could show horsepower vs. road speed for the optimal gear it would give the best comparison. I know this is hard to do but it describes why the graphs are slightly misleading when comparing cars with different gearing and different engine operating RPMs.
I think the easiest way to do that is assume an rpm drop of about 3000-3500 on the m3 per shift (what I've seen in vids). And this drop is conservative.

Average the HP over that interval for both cars and see which one is higher.

The m3 is making 100 less whp at 5400 pm than 8400. This is not the case for the turbo cars.
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      12-13-2013, 04:52 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
Look, it's obvious the 1M was BMW's experiment.

Let's see what happens.

Note: If price was no object, I bet everyone here would be driving a GT3 RS
Fixed it for you
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      12-13-2013, 05:31 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
I think the easiest way to do that is assume an rpm drop of about 3000-3500 on the m3 per shift (what I've seen in vids). And this drop is conservative.

Average the HP over that interval for both cars and see which one is higher.

The m3 is making 100 less whp at 5400 pm than 8400. This is not the case for the turbo cars.
As a previous poster mentioned the e92 M3's gearing vs the f80 will certainly play a factor in how that power is delivered. I think you may be underestimating how high that RPM is kept when shifting. Take a peek at this awesome lap by Junior in his e92 M3:



Even shifting in the lower gears (from redline) the RPMs don't drop below about 6500 RPM The higher gears don't seem to drop much below 7000 RPM on shifting.

So I think you would need to compare what the e92 delivers at 6500-8400 rpm vs what the f80 reportedly does at maybe 5500-7600 (we don't really know the gearing for the f80 so hard to say what RPM range it would be using at a track, they may do longer gears dropping it even further between shifts... dunno).

(assuming each cell on the X axis represents 1000 RPM? could be wrong)
At 5500 for the f80 and 6500rpm for the e92 the HP output appears pretty close to me. Pretty close at 6000 and 7000 as well.

Again, not saying the f80 won't be faster but I don't think it will be by as much as people are thinking based on the difference we saw between the e46 and the e92. I don't think power won't be the the big factor in the lap time difference we will see.

btw I'm just shooting the shit guys, nothing to get too excited about. Either people are gonna get the car or they won't. Personally, I'm not yet seeing enough value over what the e92 offers as a whole package. BMW may have outdone themselves with the e92. But they also didn't have to worry about CAFE then either.
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      12-14-2013, 12:11 AM   #87
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Assuming that dyno of the 1M and M3 is correct, the 1M should be faster due to its lighter weight and the shape of the curve. However, on longer power tracks (N-ring being most extreme example, Fuji or VIR) vs technical tracks, I thought the M3 was a bit faster. Think the video of the track car from another demonstrates how the M3 hangs at 7-8.3k rpm, in which case it is producing some pretty high "average power". In the case of the 1M vs M3 graph, I think the graph doesn't tell the entire story (gearing and where are likely to be in powerband on track) and as I've said before, I also don't think the S65 dynos very well due to the need for heat exchange and cool air going into the intake tract, which is essential for 12.0:1 compression ratio engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
whats the difference? the shape looks the same either way. the point remains that turbo cars make much more average power throughout the powerband, not just at the very top end. we will see when the official tested numbers come out. but bmw themselves quotes huge increases in performance between this car and the e9x, and I believe that will materialize.

also comparing modded to stock and modded to modded muddies up the waters. its not like you wont be able to modify the s55 should you choose to.

See the two attached graphs to see what I mean. Colored in is the difference in average power under the curve between the f80 m3 and e92 and another with the n54 from the 1m vs a tuned e92 m3.

Clearly the s65 is badass, and I love it. But in terms of acceleration and power under the curve, its easy to see how the f80 m3 is superior.
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      12-14-2013, 12:20 AM   #88
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Omg. 0 to 60 3.9 In stock form. That's crazy. With minor software tweaks and catless exhaust and your smoking the infamous c63. Which is rated at 3.6 or 3.8. Can't remember. I definitely consider upgrading in a heart beat. But since my car was stolen I can only consider taking the bus.
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