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      12-09-2013, 12:27 PM   #1
TheKosherStogie
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My Lap Times Track Data: KW Clubsport Vs. Stock ZCP

KW Clubsport 3 way adjustable Vs. Stock ZCP on Vorshlag Camber Plates

Got the KW's from Sam @ AutoTalent, a real pleasure to do business with.
Also to Danny @ MiniCorsa for installing them. He is the most punctual and fastest working man in the business.
Tom @ Lucent Motors always does my alignment and kills it.


Tried keeping the only variable between track days the suspension. I enjoy seeing hard data not just subjective info. But let me say as well I can't even begin to state how much more responsive the coilovers are than stock, the response, how planted, the feedback, how fast the tires get pressed back to the ground. MOST IMPORTANTLY THE CAR IS EASIER TO DRIVE FASTER.

Lap Times
Stock suspension on Vorshlag Camber Plates w/ 275/18 Rs3 Tires, Stock Brakes with Hawk Dc70 pads vs KW Clubsport 3 ways (same tires and pads) Both stock engine, stock exhaust w/ Dinan muffler, No aero

STOCK KW CLUBSPORT
Willow Springs International Raceway:
1:33:9 Vs. 1:32:8 = 1.1 seconds
ButtonWillow C13:
2:03:6 Vs. 2:01:7 = 1.9 seconds
Auto Club Speedway:
1:56:7 Vs. 1:55:1 = 1.6 seconds

Update: 1:59:2 @ Buttonwillow after corner balance/alignment and brake pads and more driving time on suspension.

Let me state that ive only been to autoclub speedway two times, once stock and once with the KW's. Also Ive only done one track day at each track with the suspension so I can prob cut more time once I get more track time with the suspension

What I also gather from the data is the more turns and especially transitions (left to right etc) the more time I cut. Sweeper ill go a bit fast but I feel I gained the most time in the transitions. The car is able to change directions more stable which allows me to stay full throttle in the area longer and get on it earlier.
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Stock w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:33:9 / BW C13 2:03:6 / ACS 1:56:7
KW CS w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:32:8 / BW C13 1:59:2 / ACS 1:55:1
APR Wing/Rs3 - WSIR 1:30:9 / BW C13 1:57:7
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Last edited by TheKosherStogie; 12-27-2013 at 01:21 PM.
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      12-09-2013, 12:30 PM   #2
325rider
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This is sick. I have never seen such an accurate and concise comparison for these coils or any other for that matter. Great info!!!! Very valuable

There is hope my civic M3 can now be as good as a ZCP. Just maybe

Last edited by 325rider; 12-09-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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      12-09-2013, 12:44 PM   #3
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Thanks. I've always gotten very upset that there was no data like this available, so I told myself I would do it when the time came
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      12-09-2013, 01:07 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
Thanks. I've always gotten very upset that there was no data like this available, so I told myself I would do it when the time came
Thanks for the data, a few questions however:
1. Where you running the same alignment (camber/toe) settings?
2. Was ride height maintained at stock level?
3. I presume similar tire pressure psi but was that the case?
4. Age and condition of tires for each run?
4. lastly, any outside temperature variations, even an estimate?
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      12-09-2013, 01:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawana View Post
Thanks for the data, a few questions however:
1. Where you running the same alignment (camber/toe) settings?
2. Was ride height maintained at stock level?
3. I presume similar tire pressure psi but was that the case?
4. Age and condition of tires for each run?
4. lastly, any outside temperature variations, even an estimate?
1. More camber. Same toe. Around .5 more camber
2. Ride height when stock was stock. Only alignment changed
3. Same psi
4. Stock times were all on day 1 or day 2. I actually think stock times are on day 1. Auto club on kw was day 4. WSIR kw was day 1 and buttonwillow was day 2.
5. Weather was similar except button was colder on kw.
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      12-09-2013, 02:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
1. More camber. Same toe. Around .5 more camber
2. Ride height when stock was stock. Only alignment changed
3. Same psi
4. Stock times were all on day 1 or day 2. I actually think stock times are on day 1. Auto club on kw was day 4. WSIR kw was day 1 and buttonwillow was day 2.
5. Weather was similar except button was colder on kw.
I see, assuming you were running more camber F than R with the vorshlags, by increasing F camber with the Clubsports, turn in becomes better and your car will rotate easier which will contribute towards better lap times. If you then lowered the suspension, on average handling gets better (to an extent) but depends on how much you will be hitting bumpstops.

I'm just curious if you couldn't have achieved the same numbers simply by just adjusting your vorshlag camber a tad more maybe .75 to a degree? Because I suspect, just knowing you have put a newer and *supposedly* better suspension under the skirt, would have given you some additional confidence to push your car a bit more?

Nonetheless, nice numbers and hope to see the progression on your next run(s).
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      12-09-2013, 03:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawana View Post
I see, assuming you were running more camber F than R with the vorshlags, by increasing F camber with the Clubsports, turn in becomes better and your car will rotate easier which will contribute towards better lap times. If you then lowered the suspension, on average handling gets better (to an extent) but depends on how much you will be hitting bumpstops.

I'm just curious if you couldn't have achieved the same numbers simply by just adjusting your vorshlag camber a tad more maybe .75 to a degree? Because I suspect, just knowing you have put a newer and *supposedly* better suspension under the skirt, would have given you some additional confidence to push your car a bit more?

Nonetheless, nice numbers and hope to see the progression on your next run(s).
Not even close. I've driven lowered m3s with the setup you're saying. It's a completely different car. I've driven on Ohlins RT and there's no comparison. The clubsports are more track oriented. The car used to lag and not settle. It has around 500/800lb spring rates now. Even with more camber on stock it's no comparison that would just be outright grip and a little turn in but doesn't control body sway or the ability to keep the tires on the pavement
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      12-09-2013, 03:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
Not even close. I've driven lowered m3s with the setup you're saying. It's a completely different car. I've driven on Ohlins RT and there's no comparison. The clubsports are more track oriented. The car used to lag and not settle. It has around 500/800lb spring rates now. Even with more camber on stock it's no comparison that would just be outright grip and a little turn in but doesn't control body sway or the ability to keep the tires on the pavement
good data

those spring rates and drop sound like no fun on the street

cant have it all I suppose. nice driving btw, saw your vids on another thread
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      12-09-2013, 04:52 PM   #9
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Great data. Excellent driving!
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      12-09-2013, 07:46 PM   #10
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Clubsports are surprisingly compliant on the street once you adjust the damper settings appropriately. It took me a bit of trial and error to find out the best dual purpose setting.

They are now very comfortable and I can take it to the track with minor adjustments.

KW clubsports are very underrated. Everyone is caught up on the Ohlin RT and JRZ hype, not saying they are anything but top notch, but the KWs are very capable track dampers.

Great review thanks for the post.
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      12-09-2013, 08:01 PM   #11
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^i agree. We have driven these and the ohlins RT back to back and these are more track oriented. The ohlins are good for the street but u need a higher version for the track which in sure are stupendous but costly.

I drive mine on the street and track. My only car. Compression and rebound is a factory settings. Pretty much the middle
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      12-09-2013, 08:11 PM   #12
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I run one click softer than factory on bump and 2 softer on rebound. I run factory settings on track.
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      12-09-2013, 10:02 PM   #13
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Thank you for this; I appreciate that competitive racers wouldn't ordinarily volunteer personal data

My own data supports this, although it is difficult for me to determine how much a 2sec advantage on a tight 3km circuit relates to aggressive KW CS settings or improved driving technique.
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      12-09-2013, 11:35 PM   #14
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KW 3 way are leaps above and not to be confused with Clubsports (which I think are nothing special.
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      12-09-2013, 11:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okusa View Post
KW 3 way are leaps above and not to be confused with Clubsports (which I think are nothing special.
Maybe I'm wrong but they are
"KW Clubsport 3 way" the regular "KW clubsport" are 2 way. I didn't think there was a huge difference. Maybe I'm wrong thou
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      12-10-2013, 09:52 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okusa View Post
KW 3 way are leaps above and not to be confused with Clubsports (which I think are nothing special.
The KW CS 3 way vs 2 way are different only on the compression valving to add the low/high speed adjustment. All else is the same as the 2 way.
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      12-10-2013, 09:58 AM   #17
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Good comparison and data. Thank you for taking the time to share!
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      12-10-2013, 10:16 AM   #18
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Maybe I'm naive or reading it wrong, but especially when you consider the additional camber on the KW setup (and perhaps the cooler temps for Button Willow) this tells me the stock ZCP with camber plates is actually a pretty good setup and will probably suffice for a good number of weekend warriors (perhaps me included).

Am I reading it wrong?
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      12-10-2013, 10:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
Maybe I'm naive or reading it wrong, but especially when you consider the additional camber on the KW setup (and perhaps the cooler temps for Button Willow) this tells me the stock ZCP with camber plates is actually a pretty good setup and will probably suffice for a good number of weekend warriors (perhaps me included).

Am I reading it wrong?
Yeah I've tracked on the stock suspension for a long time. Many members here do to. Yeah can have plenty of fun with it.
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      12-10-2013, 11:45 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
Maybe I'm naive or reading it wrong, but especially when you consider the additional camber on the KW setup (and perhaps the cooler temps for Button Willow) this tells me the stock ZCP with camber plates is actually a pretty good setup and will probably suffice for a good number of weekend warriors (perhaps me included).

Am I reading it wrong?


I am a newb at the track and my car is way overbuilt for my skill level. I have heard of guys with stock M3s with really fast track times.

You can make this car very capable with tires, race fluids, pads, camber plates and braided braked lines.
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      12-10-2013, 12:28 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
Yeah I've tracked on the stock suspension for a long time. Many members here do to. Yeah can have plenty of fun with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggynuts01 View Post


I am a newb at the track and my car is way overbuilt for my skill level. I have heard of guys with stock M3s with really fast track times.

You can make this car very capable with tires, race fluids, pads, camber plates and braided braked lines.
Thanks, guys. That's exactly what I'm counting on.

Great minds think alike, Biggy. I am taking the car up to MRF soon to get high-temp brake fluid and SS brake lines and a set of track pads to swap in when the time comes. Someday I'll grab a set of 18" Apex Arc-8s and wrap them in Michelin Pilot Sport Cups.

Sorry for the thread-jack, OP.
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      12-10-2013, 02:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo_3101 View Post
Thank you for this; I appreciate that competitive racers wouldn't ordinarily volunteer personal data

My own data supports this, although it is difficult for me to determine how much a 2sec advantage on a tight 3km circuit relates to aggressive KW CS settings or improved driving technique.
Assuming the learning curve has plateaued, the 2s gain directly correlates the new hardware. However, I think what's missing is the average lap times, at these tracks, for drivers in the same class as the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by okusa View Post
KW 3 way are leaps above and not to be confused with Clubsports (which I think are nothing special.
Incorrect! The KW 3 Way are first a street coilover that can be tracked while the KW Clubsports are a track coilover that is streetable.
http://kw-suspension.com/us/kw_variant_3.php
http://kw-suspension.com/us/kw_clubsport.php

Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
Maybe I'm wrong but they are
"KW Clubsport 3 way" the regular "KW clubsport" are 2 way. I didn't think there was a huge difference. Maybe I'm wrong thou
I believe the Clubsports are valved firmer than the 3 Way - at least for the e46 setups. I have the Clubsports on my zhp and I believe the valving is fixed at lower speeds. My only gripe with them is finding someone who can revalve them state-side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
Maybe I'm naive or reading it wrong, but especially when you consider the additional camber on the KW setup (and perhaps the cooler temps for Button Willow) this tells me the stock ZCP with camber plates is actually a pretty good setup and will probably suffice for a good number of weekend warriors (perhaps me included).

Am I reading it wrong?
For a weekend warrior, no doubt, but watch the toe settings otherwise your tires will take a beating.
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