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      01-27-2014, 08:56 AM   #67
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Thanks for the nice comments gents.

Quote:
This may be a bit of a poser question but have you considered anodizing in different colors? Like it or not even guys that order racing BBK's often do so for looks as much as performance...and I would love to see you guys as successful as possible in offering such a great alternative to what's already out there.
Thanks for the suggestion, but for the near future I don't foresee these coming in any color other than the anodized grey. Having multiple colors complicates the situation tremendously. One of our goals is to always have these on the shelf and ready to ship the same day the customer orders them. That goes for spares as well. If you have three colors of caliper for example, that triples your inventory requirement. Since we are now building kits for various BMW's, Corvettes, FT86, Subaru, Lancer Evo, Ford, Honda, etc, the inventory requirement would triple across all of those platforms and any others we have in development. That inventory requirement also travels back up the manufacturing chain as well, creating greater caliper inventory requirements for AP Racing, longer delivery times from England, etc.

Multiple colors is definitely a good idea, but just not critical to what we're trying to achieve currently. Right now we're focusing on developing products that will provide the absolute best performance at a competitive price, as well as a top-tier customer buying/ownership experience. Other concerns will take a back seat for the time being. Hopefully that makes sense, and thanks again for the suggestion.
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      01-27-2014, 04:08 PM   #68
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A generous local customer brought his gorgeous M3 by on Friday, and we completed our rear kit test fit. We are now moving into production, and it should be available late February. Our kit will shave 16 lbs. of unsprung weight from the rear of the car! When combined with our front kit (-21 lbs.), our four wheel kit will shave 37 lbs. of unsprung weight from your M3

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      01-29-2014, 09:54 AM   #69
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I've been getting some questions about the pad shapes for the calipers in our kits.

From our website...

Pad Shape for Six Piston Front AP Racing CP5060 Caliper




The pad shape our CP5060 caliper uses was created by AP Racing many years ago, and is used by a wide range of racing calipers today. Itís available in just about every popular racing compound on the market. That means youíll never end up in a pinch without pads. The available pad compounds that Essex sells for the CP5060 caliper can be found below. Please keep in mind that there are many other compounds available on the market from other manufacturers. The list below is only what Essex sells. When purchasing this brake system, you have the option of buying one set of any of the pads in the list below at 50% off of the retail price. Underneath each manufacturer below, the pad compounds are listed from most aggressive to least aggressive.

CL Brakes= RC8, RC6, RC6E, RC5+

Ferodo Racing= DSUNO, DS1.11, DS3000, DS2500

Hawk Performance= DTC-70, DTC-60, HPS, Performance Ceramic

Note on using brake pads different from those listed above

Again, please keep in mind that the above is not an exhaustive list, and that there are many other pad compounds available in this shape from other manufacturers. Please note however, that the pad shape we use in our caliper is available in a variety of radial depths (heights), and that Essex recommends the 54mm radial depth version. Another common radial depth in this pad shape is 51mm (StopTech for example, uses this size in their ST-60 six piston caliper). The 51mm depth pads will fit into our caliper, but you will be leaving an unswept 'ring' around the disc near the attachment points to the hat (the pad will not hang as low in the caliper). Leaving a portion of the disc face unswept can create a temperature differential across the face of the disc, and doing so could lead to premature disc cracking.

Below is a drawing of the pad:

Dimensions= 152.1 x 54 x 18 mm



Cross Reference
Since we do not sell these brands, Essex cannot guarantee the fitment of these pads in the AP Racing CP5060 caliper. Based on our research however, we believe that these are the appropriate cross references. You should verify with either the manufacturer or your installer prior to purchasing any of them.

ALCON PNF4489X532.4
AP RACING CP3894D54
Brembo= B51
Carbotech= CT5555
EBC= (DP2006, DP3006C, DP4006)
Endless= RCP086 (D52)
HAWK HB109 0,71
Pagid= U1903
PFC 7790.XX.18
Porterfield= AP7790
Project Mu= F1090 (D52.5)


Pad Shape For Four Piston Rear AP Racing CP5040 Caliper



The pad shape our CP5040 caliper is used by a wide range of racing calipers today in a variety of popular racing compounds. That means youíll never end up in a pinch without pads. The available pad compounds that Essex sells for the CP5040 caliper can be found below. Please keep in mind that there are many other compounds available on the market from other manufacturers. When purchasing this brake system, you have the option of buying one set of any of the pads in the list below at 50% off of the retail price. Underneath each manufacturer below, the pad compounds are listed from most aggressive to least aggressive.

CL Brakes= RC8, RC6, RC6E, RC5+

Ferodo Racing= DS1.11, DS3000, DS2500

Hawk- Hawk is building some pads to our exact specs as I write this. They will be available in DTC-70, DTC-60, and HPS

Note on using brake pads different from those listed above

Please keep in mind that the above is not an exhaustive list, and that there are many other pad compounds available in this shape from other manufacturers. Please note however, that the pad shape we use in our caliper is available in a variety of radial depths (heights) and thicknesses, and that Essex recommends the 42mm radial depth version, in a 16-17mm thickness.

Below is a drawing of the pad:

132.4 x 42 x 16.7 mm



Cross Reference

Since we do not sell these brands, Essex cannot guarantee the fitment of these pads in the AP Racing CP5040 caliper. Based on our research however, we believe that these are the appropriate cross references. You should verify with either the manufacturer or your installer prior to purchasing any of them.

ALCON PNF0084X276.4
AP RACING CP3215D42
PAGID 2126
PFC 7768.XX.16
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      01-31-2014, 08:25 AM   #70
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This is such an informative and brilliant thread. Huge contrast to some vendors that post on this website claiming 'this and that' with no understanding or evidence to back up their claims.

Jeff,
I fully understand where you are coming from, in your post above, you articulated it very well.

Lack of bling (cosmetic jewellery can be left to Brembo) would not prevent me buying your kit at all (far from it, as the brakes are awesome from a performance perspective) but on the 1st page, the E46 has the calipers in what I'd call, motorsport colours. By having the E92 (plus others cars) in the motorsport colours, would add plenty of visual appeal without being bling and emphasize the dynamic performance of your product.

Is that something that is likely to be more achievable in the short term? One can always paint the letters in yellow at home anyway.
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      02-03-2014, 09:08 AM   #71
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Thank you very much for the kind words.

The yellow logos as shown on the e46 kits at the beginning of this thread are hand-painted at the AP Racing factory. My understanding is that the paint they use is an enamel that is baked on after it is applied. There is no reason why you couldn't paint the logo yourself at home in any desired color if you wanted to add a little bling/customization to match the car. I think it would look quite good actually. There are a number of caliper paints on the market that would get the job done.

I will note however that any paint you use could exhibit color-shift over time. The heat of the track, coupled with highly corrosive brake fluid, tends to damage paint very quickly. As long as you used a high quality, high temp paint though, I don't see any reason why the calipers wouldn't look good for a considerable length of time. Once the logos got a bit knackered, they could always be freshened with a coat of paint as well.


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Originally Posted by Ant Man View Post
This is such an informative and brilliant thread. Huge contrast to some vendors that post on this website claiming 'this and that' with no understanding or evidence to back up their claims.

Jeff,
I fully understand where you are coming from, in your post above, you articulated it very well.

Lack of bling (cosmetic jewellery can be left to Brembo) would not prevent me buying your kit at all (far from it, as the brakes are awesome from a performance perspective) but on the 1st page, the E46 has the calipers in what I'd call, motorsport colours. By having the E92 (plus others cars) in the motorsport colours, would add plenty of visual appeal without being bling and emphasize the dynamic performance of your product.

Is that something that is likely to be more achievable in the short term? One can always paint the letters in yellow at home anyway.
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      02-05-2014, 03:47 PM   #72
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Best brake thread ive seen on this forum.....
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      02-10-2014, 11:47 PM   #73
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Hi Jeff!!

Ive had nothing but good experiences with Essex, i can vouch for their quality and product. I used to run their competition kit on my FR-S and it worked fantastic at the track.
I will probably end up selling my Stop Tech Trophies and pick up these babies soon. Customer support and advice from Essex is top notch, their testing is extreme and meticulous.

Pictures of the setup i had on the FR-S


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      02-20-2014, 03:23 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by track_warrior View Post
Hi Jeff!!

Ive had nothing but good experiences with Essex, i can vouch for their quality and product. I used to run their competition kit on my FR-S and it worked fantastic at the track.
I will probably end up selling my Stop Tech Trophies and pick up these babies soon. Customer support and advice from Essex is top notch, their testing is extreme and meticulous.
Thank you Mr. Track Warrior sir!

I haven't updated in a while, and wanted to make sure people understand that these kits are the real deal, and by no means vaporware. We now have quite a few of these kits on C5 and C6 Corvettes around the country, and the positive feedback has been tremendous. One of our customers had a very successful first race with them, reeling in and passing a Porsche 911 under braking to secure a podium spot. The first line of his email to me after racing them was, "If I had three thumbs I would point them all up!"

I also wanted to give an idea of what the complete kit looks like on a car, so here's our four wheel kit on a local customer's C6 Z06.



Pre-orders

It's likely that we'll open pre-orders for these kits next week, and at that time I'll have a fairly firm date on when the kits will actually ship (it will be very shortly thereafter). All orders will be on a first come, first served basis, and your card won't be charged until the product ships. We've had a TON of interest on these kits, and I want to make sure our customers who have been following their development have a shot at getting one. I expect that our initial production run will sell out quickly.

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      02-23-2014, 01:07 PM   #75
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Thx for the awesome thread and seems like a great performance oriented kit with huge weight savings, but I was unclear on one part as I wasn't sure if you were talking about ST or AP kits: is it possible to have rotor options on the AP competition kit that are at least the same size as stock? I'll likely be changing my wheels and would not want a smaller rotor than stock. I don't need to go larger than stock either, but smaller would make the wheels look odd in my opinion (understand that this is only cosmetic and there is a performance penalty ie weight for larger rotors).

Also, what are the downsides of not having dust boots vs the more streetable AP kits? Is it mostly due to wet conditions that may cause rust? thx in advance and appreciate the comprehensive discussion.
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      02-23-2014, 01:19 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Thx for the awesome thread and seems like a great performance oriented kit with huge weight savings, but I was unclear on one part as I wasn't sure if you were talking about ST or AP kits: is it possible to have rotor options on the AP competition kit that are at least the same size as stock? I'll likely be changing my wheels and would not want a smaller rotor than stock. I don't need to go larger than stock either, but smaller would make the wheels look odd in my opinion (understand that this is only cosmetic and there is a performance penalty ie weight for larger rotors).

Also, what are the downsides of not having dust boots vs the more streetable AP kits? Is it mostly due to wet conditions that may cause rust? thx in advance and appreciate the comprehensive discussion.

The essex kit is essentially the same as OEM in terms of size (actually about 5mm smaller).
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      02-24-2014, 10:10 AM   #77
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There are no disc diameter options on our kit. The front will be 355mm, and the rear will be 340mm. From the cosmetic standpoint...keep in mind that a 5mm difference in disc size doesn't 'appear' as a 5mm difference on each side of the disc...the size difference is spread across the entire diameter of the disc. That means each side of the disc "appears" to be 2.5mm closer to the center of the disc. When you look at two discs that are that are 5mm apart in size, the difference is imperceptible. I could possibly spot a difference since I spend every day, all day, dealing with brakes, but it's highly unlikely that anyone else would notice any difference.

Also, the way the AP Racing caliper sits on / wraps around the disc, it makes the disc look larger. You can see how the kit looks on the Corvette in the pic above...I personally don't think it looks small or odd by any stretch of the imagination! For reference, that Vette has an 18" front and 19" rear wheel. The front caliper actually looks like it's so big that it is hitting the wheel barrel.

As for dust boots, it doesn't make any difference if you have them or not in rain. If you drive your car on really dirty roads, or through snow salt, the dust boots add a bit of protection to keep that gunk off of your pistons. They're really more of a physical barrier for debris, rather than moisture. Moisture won't hurt the parts. Race cars run races in the rain, and the pistons are stainless steel anyway. Even if you do have dust boots, they won't be of much use if you ever plan to take your car to the track. Chances are that you will incinerate, tear, and destroy your dust boots very quickly under track conditions. Once that happens, they aren't providing any benefits at all.

Below are a couple of pics of typical dust boots on pistons. The first shows pistons with new dust boots installed, and the second shows what usually happens when you track them. Once they reach track temps and are cooked, they're just a little black charred ring around the piston, and they aren't actually providing any functional benefit. Cosmetically, they actually look far worse than no boot at all.



It's very common for people to confuse piston seals with dust boots. The seals are what ensures that brake fluid doesn't seep out from behind the pistons. All calipers have seals, but only some calipers have dust boots. A dust boot is simply a little hood that is attached to provide a physical barrier for debris. As mentioned above, that physical barrier is useless once it is compromised. Think of it like putting up one of those orange plastic utility fences, then melting a big hole in it. Once that happens, it's not going to be very effective at keeping anything out!

A caliper designed specifically for racetrack use typically has special seals made of materials designed for high temperatures. In our case, that material is a special high temperature silicone. However, the average road caliper likely has seals designed from more pedestrian materials because they are cheaper to produce.

Below you can see the piston seals we use, and how they fit into the piston bores. They aren't visible on the extended piston...they're inside the bore, so no tattered mess of fried rubber.



A common misconception I hear tossed around is that 'race' calipers will need to be serviced or rebuilt more frequently than a road caliper. If you think about that statement, it doesn't make any sense. If the calipers are being run on the track, the opposite is actually more likely. The calipers that have the components specifically designed to handle high heat conditions do a much better job at resisting the searing heat of track use for that very reason. Those components therefore last longer, and need less servicing and replacement.

The situation is just like tires: A Hoosier dry race tire has a continuous shoulder block, almost no tread, and is made from materials designed specifically to handle huge lateral loads and the resulting heat during track use. An OEM Toyota Camry tire has a vastly different rubber compound, is designed to evacuate water, and run effectively across a wide temperature range. Which one lasts longer when blasted on a track? Obviously, the one that was designed for that purpose! It's the same situation with brake calipers, brake discs, and brake pads.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Thx for the awesome thread and seems like a great performance oriented kit with huge weight savings, but I was unclear on one part as I wasn't sure if you were talking about ST or AP kits: is it possible to have rotor options on the AP competition kit that are at least the same size as stock? I'll likely be changing my wheels and would not want a smaller rotor than stock. I don't need to go larger than stock either, but smaller would make the wheels look odd in my opinion (understand that this is only cosmetic and there is a performance penalty ie weight for larger rotors).

Also, what are the downsides of not having dust boots vs the more streetable AP kits? Is it mostly due to wet conditions that may cause rust? thx in advance and appreciate the comprehensive discussion.
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      02-25-2014, 11:10 AM   #78
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this kit looks incredible..... the company gets a very good rep in general from what ive seen, if i had a e92 and wanted a BBK this is where id put my money.... Great people and the best BBk thread ive seen with insane data.. AP imo is the best when it comes to calipers....
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      02-27-2014, 04:49 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
this kit looks incredible..... the company gets a very good rep in general from what ive seen, if i had a e92 and wanted a BBK this is where id put my money.... Great people and the best BBk thread ive seen with insane data.. AP imo is the best when it comes to calipers....
Cheers.
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      02-27-2014, 04:55 PM   #80
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Pre-orders for our front kit will open next Monday 3/3/14. We will take your order, but your card will not be charged until your kit ships. These kits will also be available through our wholesale dealer network starting on Monday, so if you work with a trusted shop, they're welcome to place an order with us at that time. We expect to start shipping kits late next week. The first orders that are placed will be the first to ship out. Thank you very much for all of the feedback, suggestions, and support during the development process. It's been fun, and we're really looking forward to hearing from the owners once these kits are on their cars.

Here is a final shot of what will be included in the front kit:


We are still a few weeks out on the rear kits, and I'll continue to post updates on those. Again though, it is perfectly fine to run the front-only kit as a standalone.
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      02-27-2014, 11:28 PM   #81
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Great thread. This was a good read, as was your thread on the hidden benefits of BBK. It convinced me to think seriously about a BBK. The thing that really convinced me is the idea of keeping my OEM brakes in near new condition, beating up on a BBK at the track, then putting the OEM brakes back on when I go to sell the car.

For someone who will do, say, 6-12 track days a year, but who daily drives their M3, would you still recommend this kit, or would you steer me towards something else?
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      02-28-2014, 01:26 AM   #82
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Thx for the detailed reply. Excellent thread and amazing that this reduces unsprung weight by 37 lbs vs stock.
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      02-28-2014, 09:55 AM   #83
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Thanks Guys.

For the record, we are officially only able to sell our Competition BBK's for off-road use only. The inside cover of the instruction manual will have a statement verifying that fact. I just want to be completely clear on that!

I think people tend to severely underestimate what they're actually getting with a big brake kit. In my opinion, the cost is justifiable from a number of angles.

If you are looking for unsprung weight reduction, I don't think you'll find a solution that weighs as little as ours, while providing anywhere near the same performance. The components are extremely lightweight, yet incredibly durable. As you know, when 'adding lightness,' each pound of weight reduction becomes more expensive the further you dig into the car. It's easy to remove the first 100 lbs., slightly less easy to take out the next 100, and then you're scrounging to find unnecessary ounces, and spending big $ to replace them with an alternative. We've all been there on our track cars. After you've addressed wheels, stripping close to 40 lbs. from the car, particularly unsprung weight, is darn near impossible in any other manner. For me the cost of the brake kit are almost justifiable for the weight reduction alone. The laundry list of other benefits are gravy. Then again I'm a bit silly on weight reduction, and have a 2,000 lb. Miata in my fleet. I was also into autoX back in the day, and I can't imagine a better brake solution if it is allowable in the class rules.

Quote:
Great thread. This was a good read, as was your thread on the hidden benefits of BBK. It convinced me to think seriously about a BBK. The thing that really convinced me is the idea of keeping my OEM brakes in near new condition, beating up on a BBK at the track, then putting the OEM brakes back on when I go to sell the car.

For someone who will do, say, 6-12 track days a year, but who daily drives their M3, would you still recommend this kit, or would you steer me towards something else?
Thanks! People don't always think about the big picture. They're more often focused on the short-term initial cash outlay. Every time a BBK thread pops up the masses scream, "You don't NEED a big brake kit!" But it's not just about need. Nobody needs a $4,000 set of wheels, an $8,000 supercharger setup, or a $4,000 titanium exhaust setup either! They still buy them, and at the time of purchase most people think about them in terms of their residual value. For some reason however, people tend not to think of brakes that way. Obviously brakes get worn, but good quality components hold both their performance and value quite well.

Rather than need, it's about making logical decisions based on all of the available data and your plan for the car. I'm an analyst by nature, and I always tell people to look at a roughly 3-5 year period. That's how long most of us tend to own our cars, then we're off to the latest next best thing. When you put the numbers to paper, a BBK starts to make a whole lot of sense. Most notably, people ignore the fact that an AP Racing BBK has a great residual value. If you spend $3500 on a front kit now and run it for three years, you'll conservatively get 50% back for it (obviously depending on condition) when you part your car ($1800). That means you only had $1800 of sunk cost. If during those years the kit also reduced your pad usage rate by 30% and your disc usage rate by 50%, that could easily be a $1,000 over a few years. When you throw money at OEM-style replacement discs, that money is gone...to the dumpster, without any residual value. How many fewer times will you need to bleed the brakes with a BBK (which is at least $50 per bleed)? How much less wear and tear is on the ball joints, etc.? How many track sessions will you miss that you already paid for if you have brake problems? You start to realize that the BBK will likely save you money over that time period, and your OEM brakes can be dropped back onto the car without sinking money into them. Sure there's an opportunity cost for not having your $3600 of BBK money for those three years, but your return on that money probably wouldn't be anything to write home about unless you bought Tesla stock with it two years ago.

I've probably said it a million times over the past decade, but people also severely underestimate the value of not having to mess with their brakes at the track. The time between sessions is always too short. When you're instructing you constantly have to deal with students, their sessions, your own car, their car, etc...it's hectic. Everyone wants to chill with their friends in the downtime and bench race. Nobody wants to be under the car cursing, bleeding, and covered in brake fluid. Also, when the brakes working well you have more fun. You get into the 'zone,' you have some fun cat-and-mouse with other cars, you aren't thinking about them, you're just driving, learning, and having fun. That's the goal of a track day, and people lose sight of that. If you're racing, you don't have to look in your mirrors as much, you can focus on squeezing out a few extra feet at the end of each straight, and it's one less thing to think about.

Anyway, it's Friday, it's been a long week, and I'm starting to ramble! In summary, I think there is a lengthy list of reasons why a BBK is a logical purchase. For me, there are a number of points on the benefit list that would justify the initial cash outlay on their own. When you throw them all together, it starts to look like a no-brainer in many situations. Obviously, it's not for everybody, and it is a substantial chunk of money. I will say this though...in 10 years of selling aftermarket brake kits, I've never had a single customer say, "I wish I didn't buy that big brake kit!" Never, not once. In most cases the customer takes their car out to the track and then thanks me profusely on Monday morning. That makes me really like my job because I end up looking like the hero, all while not having to do too much complex math. Mwuahahah...glad I went for the Econ degree instead of the ME route!
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      02-28-2014, 01:12 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by jritt@essex View Post
For the record, we are officially only able to sell our Competition BBK's for off-road use only. The inside cover of the instruction manual will have a statement verifying that fact. I just want to be completely clear on that!
Is this beacuse they are not DOT approved? My unerstanding is that most BBK's are not DOT approved and are sold "for off-road use only."

Nevermind, just read the answer in the first post.

Last edited by rantarM3; 02-28-2014 at 01:18 PM.
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      02-28-2014, 02:27 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jritt@essex View Post

For the record, we are officially only able to sell our Competition BBK's for off-road use only. The inside cover of the instruction manual will have a statement verifying that fact. I just want to be completely clear on that!
Understood. As you said earlier in this thread, that is true of virtually every BBK on the market if you read the fine print.

And yet, many people drive their Brembo- and StopTech-equipped cars on the street without incident. Thus, the hypothetical question: Would the Essex/AP racing BBK fair any worse in daily-driving duty than the other off-road-use-only BBKs on the market?
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      02-28-2014, 06:21 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
Understood. As you said earlier in this thread, that is true of virtually every BBK on the market if you read the fine print.

And yet, many people drive their Brembo- and StopTech-equipped cars on the street without incident. Thus, the hypothetical question: Would the Essex/AP racing BBK fair any worse in daily-driving duty than the other off-road-use-only BBKs on the market?
The brembo GT installation manual has no such fine print. It even outlines some sort of 2 year warranty, which is not usually given for off-street products. I don't think I saw anything like that on the stoptech manual.

This is just for members' information. I am completely confident that the essex kit will have no problem on the streets whatsoever.

Brembo installation manual

I don't have the stoptech manual anymore and their site has been changed so I cannot find it.
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      03-01-2014, 09:50 PM   #87
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Is the floating rotor expected to make noise on the street?
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      03-03-2014, 08:27 AM   #88
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There isn't anything in our Essex system that would make it any noisier or less user-friendly than any other BBK on the market. The float control clips keep light tension between the iron portion of the disc and the aluminum hat, while still allowing the iron to expand when heat. Therefore there aren't any rattling noises, or other NVH issues.

I think I mentioned it somewhere else in the post, but some brake pads will clunk a little bit in the calipers, again which is true of most BBK's using a fixed caliper. Even though they're considered the "same" shape, brake pads from various manufacturers range in size and have different tolerances. They may vary over a mm or more in size. That means they can move around in the caliper a bit, but again, it just depends on the pad manufacturer or even a particular pad set if it's on one end of the acceptable tolerance range. That type of "clunk" noise is most noticeable when changing direction from forward to reverse and back. When the disc spins in the opposite direction it was spinning, the pad grabs it and shifts to the other end of the caliper...hence a small clunk noise as the sides of the pads bump into the abutment plate. Again, this is with all fixed caliper BBK's. We haven't had any complaints about this in our caliper when used with a wide range of popular pads. I'm just mentioning it so nobody is surprised if it happens to them!

Again, I think I mentioned it somewhere in this thread regarding warranty, etc...hypothetically- if we ship your kit and it shows up with a piston missing from the caliper (not likely!), we would obviously correct that error and make sure you got a properly functioning part. I just want to be clear that we don't wash our hands of the customer after they've made a purchase. Essex has been in business for over 30 years now! You don't survive that long in this business unless you sell quality products and treat your customers properly. So there should be absolutely no concerns about how you will be treated post-purchase. We jump through hoops for our customers every day, and we have a huge number of long-time repeat customers on both the wholesale and retail side.

Pre-orders are now officially open. Please give us a call from 8am-5pm ET (704) 824-6030, or have your trusted shop call us to order. Thanks again.
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