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      11-26-2013, 04:43 PM   #1
Pinz
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Question Is it safe to rub once in a while?

I've spent hours reading threads about spacers, wheels, offsets, alignment, rubbing, etc. I thought I had the right setup, but after getting the spacers I thought would have the look I wanted without rubbing... well, now there is rubbing.

I need to figure out if it's okay if there's a little rubbing (front) while turning in the parking lot until the tires wear out and I can go to slimmer tires, or whether I should just take the hit and try to sell the spacers and get shorter ones. And how do I know if shorter ones will not rub?

Some data:

2013 E92 M3 ZCP
Aftermarket Riva MX7 (Matte Titanium): 19x8.5" 35mm, 19x10" 38mm
Pirelli Winter 270 Sottozero Serie II: 255/35, 275/35

The stock offset for my ZCP wheels is 31mm in the front, 25mm in the rear.

For the front spacer, 4mm offset difference and 6mm because of the slimmer rim (8.5 instead of 9). So that gives us 10mm extra. With people using as much as 15mm spacers on the front with stock wheels, I thought I could go with 20mm spacers. It would be the equivalent to 10mm on stock wheels.

For the rear, 13mm offset difference, 12mm equivalent made me choose a 25mm spacer.

Now it looks great, but the fronts are rubbing.

At first, I didn't notice any rubbing with normal driving. Then in the parking lot, at first it was loud, then quieter. Maybe I was driving faster at first, or something got damaged? I did find a big piece of plastic stuck to a groove in the wheel and some other plastic pieces around the car. But when I examined the fender and all around the inside, I didn't see any damage. These plastic pieces were probably there on the parking lot before. You can see a wide mark on the rear of the front fenders where the tire rubbed.

Did I go too aggressive? I tried to take the bigger tire size into account, but maybe I should've given an extra 5mm (10mm wider tire / 2) off the spacer. I thought the rears would be the problem since the look like they stick out more, and the fronts look more or less "normal".

What's worse is that I went for H&M DRA spacers that are more expensive. Like $200 each. Was gonna go with DR in the front, but then I'd have to get longer bolts and they couldn't find any in black. I didn't want silver lug nuts, so the DRA spacers come with bolts and you can use your stock bolts. However, it didn't work for the front, the bolts bottomed out. So we had to use lug nuts anyway. And since I special ordered the spacers, I can't exchange them for the cheaper ones.

Should I just keep the 20mm spacers and live with the rubbing until I get 245 tires one day? Or is it better to sell the spacers (at a loss) and order the Turner 15mm spacers with extended bolts? Might not end up costing extra if I can get a fair price on the spacers, but selling can be a hassle. What would you guys do?
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      11-26-2013, 05:01 PM   #2
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Some more detail about how it rubs. The left wheel seems to rub more than the right wheel. At full lock, it seems only when turned to the left does it rub. In addition to full lock, when turned a bit more than half way, there is another rubbing point. I can take some pictures of the fender if anyone wants to see the "mark".

I'll put some better pictures later, but here is how it looks like. I've seen cars with much more aggressive fronts, so it leads me to believe that the wider tires + thinner rims = more "bulkiness" which means rubbing. If the tire was more stretched out, I think it would be fine. Maybe I can play around with air pressure?

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Last edited by Pinz; 11-26-2013 at 09:57 PM.
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      11-26-2013, 07:08 PM   #3
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Lol. Lots of detail for a simple "is rubbing bad" question.

If it is your fender liner (the black plastic thing) then no big deal. The tire rubber can rub through it and not be damaged. Replace the liner if it gets too bad...if you care enough.

If it's your fender, change something until you stop that rubbing. Metal > tire rubber and damage MAY result.

My $0.02.
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      11-26-2013, 07:15 PM   #4
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Get a smaller spacer or add some camber.
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      11-26-2013, 07:15 PM   #5
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255/35/19s should fit fine with the OEM offset of the ZCP wheels. You now have a ET15 offset for the fronts with the spacer and that is to aggressive. If you keep the OEM offset of 31mm you won't rub with 255s. Some people took a heat gun and pushed the rear of the fender liner in a tad so it didn't rub.

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      11-26-2013, 07:19 PM   #6
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I rub once a day.
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      11-26-2013, 07:32 PM   #7
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Your rubbing is due to the 255 tire size. You would be fine with 245. To ensure no rubbing with 255, you need a miniumum offset of 28 mm with 9" wide wheels. With 9.5" wide wheels (in front) you can use 255 with a 25mm offset due to the extra stretch on the tires.

Unfortunately, on an 8.5" wheel, you are also losing stretch compared to a 9" wheel, so 255 will be even more inclined to rub when you use spacers. You may get away with a 10mm spacer, but I believe the hub is 12mm, which means for safety reasons, you need to go with a 5mm spacer or jump to a 12mm. I could be wrong though as I have heard of people using a 10mm spacer.
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      11-26-2013, 07:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwando View Post
I rub once a day.
You'll go blind..
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      11-26-2013, 09:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordstat View Post
If it is your fender liner (the black plastic thing) then no big deal. The tire rubber can rub through it and not be damaged. Replace the liner if it gets too bad...if you care enough.

If it's your fender, change something until you stop that rubbing. Metal > tire rubber and damage MAY result.
I believe it's the fender liner as I see some marks on it, but nothing on the tire. I'll try to confirm though, as there are 2 rub points. If it's the fender, where does it usually rub, in front of the tire, or behind? And would it only be @ full lock?

Maybe with time as the tire gets thinner it'll rub less?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qtrlifecrisis View Post
Get a smaller spacer or add some camber.
Positive camber? Won't that look kinda meh and change the feel of the steering? I suppose a little won't be noticeable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwando View Post
I rub once a day.
By yourself, or with others? Do you rub more frequently with other people in the car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
Your rubbing is due to the 255 tire size. You would be fine with 245. To ensure no rubbing with 255, you need a miniumum offset of 28 mm with 9" wide wheels. With 9.5" wide wheels (in front) you can use 255 with a 25mm offset due to the extra stretch on the tires.

Unfortunately, on an 8.5" wheel, you are also losing stretch compared to a 9" wheel, so 255 will be even more inclined to rub when you use spacers. You may get away with a 10mm spacer, but I believe the hub is 12mm, which means for safety reasons, you need to go with a 5mm spacer or jump to a 12mm. I could be wrong though as I have heard of people using a 10mm spacer.
Yeah, I think it's because I didn't quite consider the physics of a wider tire with thinner rim when calculating the space. I thought about the fender space, but didn't consider the tire would essentially have a larger diameter. I'm guessing if it was a 9" rim, I wouldn't have this issue. Too bad the only options were 8.5" or 10", or a 1+ month wait for VMRs for an extra $400. And VMR only has 8.5" or 9.5" anyway.
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Last edited by Pinz; 11-27-2013 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Typo
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      11-27-2013, 07:55 AM   #10
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Negative camber.
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      11-27-2013, 01:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qtrlifecrisis View Post
Negative camber.
Negative camber will alleviate rubbing on the fender liners?
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      11-27-2013, 07:10 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W Cole View Post
Negative camber will alleviate rubbing on the fender liners?
Of course not! Thought he was rubbing on the outside edge. Carry on.
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      11-27-2013, 07:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
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You'll go blind..
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      11-29-2013, 08:30 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
Your rubbing is due to the 255 tire size. You would be fine with 245. To ensure no rubbing with 255, you need a miniumum offset of 28 mm with 9" wide wheels. With 9.5" wide wheels (in front) you can use 255 with a 25mm offset due to the extra stretch on the tires.
It looks like 255/35 on GTS Wheels (ZCP) with spacers is quote common here, and that is 19x9 +31mm. With 10mm spacers, isn't that a 21mm offset? In the "Rub / No Rub Index" thread, several have this configuration with no rubbing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
Unfortunately, on an 8.5" wheel, you are also losing stretch compared to a 9" wheel, so 255 will be even more inclined to rub when you use spacers. You may get away with a 10mm spacer, but I believe the hub is 12mm, which means for safety reasons, you need to go with a 5mm spacer or jump to a 12mm. I could be wrong though as I have heard of people using a 10mm spacer.
In that thread, 220M wheels which are 8.5" wide in the front, 15mm spacers with 255/35 tires say almost no rubbing. The wheels have +29mm offset, so with the spacers that's 14mm. Compared to 21mm with a thinner tire, I'm not surprised it rubs. Mine is 31mm with 20mm spacers = 11mm. If I go with 15mm, that will be 16mm. If 11 is rubbing, 14 is barely rubbing, maybe 16 will be just about right? Other option is 12.5mm spacer, 18.5mm offset will probably be fine for sure, but might be not as flush. Right now the 20mm spacer is perfectly flush.

Look at this post. He has a 14mm offset, 8.5" wide wheel with 255/35 tire. Doesn't say if he rubs or not, but it makes me confident that I can go for the 15mm spacer.
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      11-30-2013, 02:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinz View Post
It looks like 255/35 on GTS Wheels (ZCP) with spacers is quote common here, and that is 19x9 +31mm. With 10mm spacers, isn't that a 21mm offset? In the "Rub / No Rub Index" thread, several have this configuration with no rubbing.


In that thread, 220M wheels which are 8.5" wide in the front, 15mm spacers with 255/35 tires say almost no rubbing. The wheels have +29mm offset, so with the spacers that's 14mm. Compared to 21mm with a thinner tire, I'm not surprised it rubs. Mine is 31mm with 20mm spacers = 11mm. If I go with 15mm, that will be 16mm. If 11 is rubbing, 14 is barely rubbing, maybe 16 will be just about right? Other option is 12.5mm spacer, 18.5mm offset will probably be fine for sure, but might be not as flush. Right now the 20mm spacer is perfectly flush.

Look at this post. He has a 14mm offset, 8.5" wide wheel with 255/35 tire. Doesn't say if he rubs or not, but it makes me confident that I can go for the 15mm spacer.

Some will rub some won't, we have seen reports of AG 359 wheels with ET18 offsets rub with 255/35/19s. A lot of this is going to be over all diameter of the tires, some are 26" some are up to 26.1". Believe it or not that .1" could mean rub or no rub.

Dave
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      12-09-2013, 09:42 PM   #16
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I just put GTS sizes on AG 359s ET 18F 25R in Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 on my ZCP M3 with no spacers and there's rub all right. Left turns on passenger front mainly. Gonna have to borrow a heat gun I guess. Don't want to give up the GTS tire sizes to fix it, so I guess I'll have to heat the liner. This will be my first time doing this though.
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      12-10-2013, 09:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
Your rubbing is due to the 255 tire size. You would be fine with 245. To ensure no rubbing with 255, you need a miniumum offset of 28 mm with 9" wide wheels. With 9.5" wide wheels (in front) you can use 255 with a 25mm offset due to the extra stretch on the tires.

Unfortunately, on an 8.5" wheel, you are also losing stretch compared to a 9" wheel, so 255 will be even more inclined to rub when you use spacers. You may get away with a 10mm spacer, but I believe the hub is 12mm, which means for safety reasons, you need to go with a 5mm spacer or jump to a 12mm. I could be wrong though as I have heard of people using a 10mm spacer.
Not disagreeing with this, just trying to understand the logic. If the hub is 12mm and therefore 10 mm would be too little, how would 5 mm be safe? If the hub is 12 mm, wouldn't anything under 12 mm be unsafe? What am I missing here?
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      12-11-2013, 01:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
Not disagreeing with this, just trying to understand the logic. If the hub is 12mm and therefore 10 mm would be too little, how would 5 mm be safe? If the hub is 12 mm, wouldn't anything under 12 mm be unsafe? What am I missing here?
5mm spacers are not hub centric. Meaning they are just a flat plate. 10mm and larger spacers are hub centric meaning they are a flat plate with a new hub protruding for the wheel to sit on

10mm spacers should work fine on the front but the rear hub protrudes further and may need to be filed down to work.
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      12-11-2013, 07:10 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Not disagreeing with this, just trying to understand the logic. If the hub is 12mm and therefore 10 mm would be too little, how would 5 mm be safe? If the hub is 12 mm, wouldn't anything under 12 mm be unsafe? What am I missing here?
With a 5mm spacer there is still enough of the hub protruding to interface with the wheel to maintain a hub-centric install.

A 10mm spacer with a hub centric protrusion on a hub that is greater than 10mm can create a problem. The spacer needs to stack its own hub protrusion on top of the car's hub via a beveled edge. I have found That the beveled edge doesn't sit flush with the wheel on a 10mm spacer. It's hard to explain....
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      12-11-2013, 05:22 PM   #20
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Absolutely! No big deal to have minor rubbing issues every once in awhile. If it ain't rubbing it ain't right!
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      12-11-2013, 05:28 PM   #21
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Depends on who's doing the rubbing, the frequency and intensity of said rubbing and what branch said rubber is on in the family tree!

But yeah all good brah! 10-4 over and out
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      12-11-2013, 05:37 PM   #22
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Totally safe to rub once in a while; until it starts to chafe, then you should take a few days off.
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