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      01-10-2014, 04:19 PM   #89
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      01-10-2014, 04:23 PM   #90
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Given M1 0w40's propensity to shear down, I still think it's foolhardy to depart from 10w60
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      01-10-2014, 04:31 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
Given M1 0w40's propensity to shear down, I still think it's foolhardy to depart from 10w60
Forgive me, but what does "shear down" mean and how is that relevant in our cars? Thanks!
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      01-10-2014, 04:50 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
Given M1 0w40's propensity to shear down, I still think it's foolhardy to depart from 10w60

What propensity to shear down? The UOAs people have posted of it on here show it stays within grade. Go over to BobIsTheOilGuy.com and look at all of the LS-powered cars (Vette, SRT, etc) that run it on the track without shearing. It's a streetable race oil that's used straight from the bottle as a spec oil in several racing series...it's definitely up to the task. A bit of shearing is fine and is considered acceptable by ACEA and all of the manufacturers who have an approval process.

And TWS is a horrible offender -- it shears by 20% as we've shown, so let's not point the finger at M1 in this area.

The kneejerk reaction to "just run a thicker oil" is rooted in a misunderstanding of oil viscosity and oil pressure, and is often counterproductive to proper engine operation.
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      01-11-2014, 10:04 PM   #93
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As BMW specifies 10w60, how is that a knee jerk reaction? LOL.
M1 0w40 loses it's HTHS and it runs like water at temp anyway, so no thanks in my S65.
Read up/ do a search! Tons of forums for other car makes discuss it ad nauseum.
TWS shears too but I never run it long enough for that to matter.
If I ever, EVER consider a lighter grade other than TWS it will be with a shear stable ester base oil = Redline oil.
I will listen to the wisdom of my CCA tech advisor and BMW platinum level mechanic way before I acknowledge web forum consensus.
Sorry to dissent. I am grateful for insight through forum users' experience in general...
Except on oil topics.
No one here has a smidgen of oil/ lubricant /engine metallurgy expertise here to flat out recommend going against factory specs.
You do have every right to gamble with your own investment however. And I do enjoy reading the results.
Cheers
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      01-11-2014, 10:11 PM   #94
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BMW LL-1 approved oils (including M1) are now approved for the S65/S85 engines, per BMW. Wouldn't make sense for BMW to add the approval of an oil type that wasn't safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
As BMW specifies 10w60, how is that a knee jerk reaction? LOL.
M1 0w40 loses it's HTHS and it runs like water at temp anyway, so no thanks in my S65.
Read up/ do a search! Tons of forums for other car makes discuss it ad nauseum.
TWS shears too but I never run it long enough for that to matter.
If I ever, EVER consider a lighter grade other than TWS it will be with a shear stable ester base oil = Redline oil.
I will listen to the wisdom of my CCA tech advisor and BMW platinum level mechanic way before I acknowledge web forum consensus.
Sorry to dissent. I am grateful for insight through forum users' experience in general...
Except on oil topics.
No one here has a smidgen of oil/ lubricant /engine metallurgy expertise here to flat out recommend going against factory specs.
You do have every right to gamble with your own investment however. And I do enjoy reading the results.
Cheers
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      01-12-2014, 10:20 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
As BMW specifies 10w60, how is that a knee jerk reaction? LOL.
M1 0w40 loses it's HTHS and it runs like water at temp anyway, so no thanks in my S65.
Read up/ do a search! Tons of forums for other car makes discuss it ad nauseum.
TWS shears too but I never run it long enough for that to matter.
If I ever, EVER consider a lighter grade other than TWS it will be with a shear stable ester base oil = Redline oil.
I will listen to the wisdom of my CCA tech advisor and BMW platinum level mechanic way before I acknowledge web forum consensus.
Sorry to dissent. I am grateful for insight through forum users' experience in general...
Except on oil topics.
No one here has a smidgen of oil/ lubricant /engine metallurgy expertise here to flat out recommend going against factory specs.
You do have every right to gamble with your own investment however. And I do enjoy reading the results.
Cheers

It is a knee-jerk reaction to assume thickest is best. Why do you assume thin is bad?

Any oil will indeed "lose its HTHS" under use and this is not a bad thing. Your comment about never running TWS long enough for it to matter actually proves that you are not in the loop on how it behaves in service; TWS is notorious for very quickly shearing way out of grade (by up to 20%). That has been proven on this site and others repeatedly.

BMW allows LL-01 oils in our motors now. M1 0w40 is an LL-01 oil, so how is this "going against factory specs?"

And yeah, I am a pretty active member at Bob Is The Oil Guy so I am well-informed on this topic.
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      01-14-2014, 02:37 AM   #96
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Are you guys burning a lot more oil?

At 6K miles after my last oil change, just added a 2nd quart. This is just with regular driving.
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      01-14-2014, 05:29 AM   #97
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I'm at 3,200 mi, and my oil read out has not moved one bit....which is very surprising to me since it's quite normal for S65s to burn some oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09 View Post
Are you guys burning a lot more oil?

At 6K miles after my last oil change, just added a 2nd quart. This is just with regular driving.
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      01-14-2014, 05:47 AM   #98
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Your post was probably valid a year ago, but now it's just funny since you are behind on information, and you contradicted yourself at times in your post.

i.e. you won't easily acknowledge forum consensus, but you read up on M1 0W40 on some other forums, and all of sudden the oil is running like water at temp (what temp?), and we are all gambling with our investment?

M1 0W40 and all other LL-01 oils have been approved by BMW for M cars since August 2013: http://cache.bmwusa.com/Pdf_59436a7e...2-e40e9ca36785


Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
As BMW specifies 10w60, how is that a knee jerk reaction? LOL.
M1 0w40 loses it's HTHS and it runs like water at temp anyway, so no thanks in my S65.
Read up/ do a search! Tons of forums for other car makes discuss it ad nauseum.
TWS shears too but I never run it long enough for that to matter.
If I ever, EVER consider a lighter grade other than TWS it will be with a shear stable ester base oil = Redline oil.
I will listen to the wisdom of my CCA tech advisor and BMW platinum level mechanic way before I acknowledge web forum consensus.
Sorry to dissent. I am grateful for insight through forum users' experience in general...
Except on oil topics.
No one here has a smidgen of oil/ lubricant /engine metallurgy expertise here to flat out recommend going against factory specs.
You do have every right to gamble with your own investment however. And I do enjoy reading the results.
Cheers
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      01-14-2014, 07:04 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonardo629 View Post

M1 0W40 and all other LL-01 oils have been approved by BMW for M cars since August 2013: http://cache.bmwusa.com/Pdf_59436a7e...2-e40e9ca36785
Hmmm its a very ambiguous supplement:
"BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles"
can be interpreted as any LL-01 Synthetic Oil" as long as it is on a list of oils specifically approved by BMW for M vehicles.
For instance both Castrol EDGE 0W-40 and Castrol EDGE 5W40 are LL-01 but neither has approval in its specs for use in BMW M engines. Castrol EDGE 10W-60 OTOH does have specific approval in its specification for use in M engines.
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      01-14-2014, 07:20 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Hmmm its a very ambiguous supplement:
"BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles"
can be interpreted as any LL-01 Synthetic Oil" as long as it is on a list of oils specifically approved by BMW for M vehicles.
For instance both Castrol EDGE 0W-40 and Castrol EDGE 5W40 are LL-01 but neither has approval in its specs for use in BMW M engines. Castrol EDGE 10W-60 OTOH does have specific approval in its specification for use in M engines.
Not ambiguous at all. For S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines BMW allows any LL-01 oil. Then for all M engines BMW allows TWS or OE 5w30.

Dont really see any other way to read it
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      01-14-2014, 07:33 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
Not ambiguous at all. For S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines BMW allows any LL-01 oil. Then for all M engines BMW allows TWS or OE 5w30.

Don't really see any other way to read it
I'm with you - Mobil 1 is therefore not on the list.

Interestingly the 2010 supplement said:

"The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time.

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines:

* Castrol TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil

* Castrol Formula RS SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil (BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420)"

They seemed to have left off the ":" in the current 2013 document.
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      01-14-2014, 08:33 AM   #102
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This is the 2008 supplement which has similar wording but specifically excludes all LL-01 without M approval.
(The underlining is in the original document).
http://www.bimmerfile.com/wp-content...hetic-oils.pdf


"BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil*
(BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866)
* Does not apply to M vehicles - see below

The oils listed below meet BMW’s Long-life rating and are acceptable for use in BMW Passenger vehicles and SAVs in the US market with gasoline engines.

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market

Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30


The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time.

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles
equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines


Castrol TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil, or
Castrol Formula RS SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil
(BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420)


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      01-14-2014, 08:50 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09 View Post
Are you guys burning a lot more oil?

At 6K miles after my last oil change, just added a 2nd quart. This is just with regular driving.
The alert to add 1 qt came on before 5k miles (maybe at 4500 mi). I only needed to add about .6 qt and it was to same level as I normally fill, which is just 1 tick under max. Car never asked for oil with 10W60.

Having said that, the car was run MUCH harder on 0W40 than when it was on 10W60, so I think it's more than acceptable in my case.
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      01-14-2014, 12:32 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
Not ambiguous at all. For S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines BMW allows any LL-01 oil. Then for all M engines BMW allows TWS or OE 5w30.

Dont really see any other way to read it
5W30 is for M cars that have a turbo (1M, X5/6 M, F10 M5), not all M cars ever. In an F10 M5 launch video, an engineer talking about the engine mentioned that one of the benefits of the S63 and S63Tu design was that it allowed them to run 5W30, which delivered increased efficiency. The wording and layout of the BMWUSA website on this subject is horrendously confusing, sadly. For example, reading strictly, the LL-01 bullet point says "BMW LL-01 oils", not "Whatever LL-01 oils you may find on the market." But regardless of what the BMWUSA website says (especially considering that it doesn't match other regional BMW websites), I can't imagine 10W30 being acceptable for an S65 when not long ago it was 10W60 or bust.

It also wouldn't make sense to approve just any LL01 oil. As has already been said, LL01 is a rating that pertains purely to longevity. The fact that an oil will still have TBN left at the end of BMW's crazy 10-15K oil intervals doesn't say anything about whether that oil was delivering adequate protection during that time. LL01 can't be the only criteria considered when choosing an appropriate oil for an engine.

As for 0W40, I've already written up a storm in the bearing thread, but my main concern is that even though the theory says that a thinner oil should reduce bearing wear, I haven't seen any compelling body of evidence to confirm that theory in this specific case. And far more importantly, I haven't seen anything to indicate that even if it DOES help with bearing wear, it doesn't cause OTHER problems that may be more severe than the problem it fixes. Yes it's entirely possible that 0W40 is just as good or even better than 10W60 and the only reason it hasn't been recommended until now is because of some exclusivity contract (and because 0W40 didn't exist back when 10W60 was settled upon), but we can't know that for sure without a lot more information. Unfortunately we won't get that any time soon since we'd need long-term reports from many people running 0W40, and I for one am not willing to be one of those guinea pigs.

I'm also not willing to risk my warranty on a document that, as evidenced by this forum, is clearly open to some interpretation and misunderstanding.
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      01-14-2014, 12:34 PM   #105
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It's just hard for us in the U.S. market not to interpret M1 0W40 is also approved when BMW itself has the Castrol Edge Professional OE 5W30 on the approved list for M cars. But then again, this doesn't really concern you does it? You and your M3 are across the pond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Hmmm its a very ambiguous supplement:
"BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles"
can be interpreted as any LL-01 Synthetic Oil" as long as it is on a list of oils specifically approved by BMW for M vehicles.
For instance both Castrol EDGE 0W-40 and Castrol EDGE 5W40 are LL-01 but neither has approval in its specs for use in BMW M engines. Castrol EDGE 10W-60 OTOH does have specific approval in its specification for use in M engines.
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      01-14-2014, 06:57 PM   #106
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Hooray, another argument about how to interpret BMW's oil bulletin!
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      01-14-2014, 07:23 PM   #107
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      01-17-2014, 12:12 PM   #108
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With my poor knowledge on this, if your intend is to drive on streets and not tracks, the Mobil 1 0w-40 has an advantage over the Castrol TWS 10w-60; which your engine warms up faster and that is always good.

You can also think of it this way: When playing soccer, the faster you body warms up, there is less risk of injuries.
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      01-17-2014, 12:55 PM   #109
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What a company "officially and definitively" recommend you use vs. what you can actually use with no detriment to your car could be completely different due to legal and financial reasons
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      01-17-2014, 01:04 PM   #110
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Guys, the point of this thread is not to drop in your 2 cents whether you should run anything outside TWS or not.

Let's keep it technical, I'd love to see more Blackstone reports for this oil. My numbers improved after switching to 0W40 (while driving the car much harder on this oil too).
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