BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Professional Motorsport Racing Discussion (ALMS, DTM, Formula 1, Grand-AM, Le Mans, IRL, WRC, etc..)
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-07-2013, 04:15 AM   #1
SenorFunkyPants
Colonel
United Kingdom
47

 
SenorFunkyPants's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK


Posts: 2,580
iTrader: (0)

One of the greats?

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/...160644326.html
Its an interesting article and I tend to agree with it.
Bound to polarize views though.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2013, 01:04 PM   #2
five_timer
no turbo, no auto, no iDrive, no kidding
United_States
2

 
five_timer's Avatar
 
Drives: 128i convertible
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NH


Posts: 166
iTrader: (0)

Half the article states the obvious (a good car is needed to win championships), and the rest is comically flawed. Prost ended his career in a car so dominant, it renders his argument moot. The Williams-Renault, with full active suspension, power steering, traction control, pre-programmed auto shift tranny, the best aero, and the best engine, was simply in another league, and ridiculously easy to drive. Mansell cruised to victory in the same car the year before.

Truth is, the modern Red Bull-Renault is a great car, but only Vettel is able to pull-out a 2 sec lead on the 1st lap of a race, or win a race by half a minute. Webber can't do it, and he's proven himself to be a top-tier driver over the years. Even those who out-qualify Vettel (Mercedes this year, or McLaren in previous years) can't do what he does in a race.

Explain to me how the top teams can qualify within a couple of tenths of pole, yet Vettel can somehow get right to the limit of his car on lap 1, leaving the rest in the dust, and yet he doesn't destroy his tires. Why doesn't Webber just do what Vettel does? Or Hamilton, or Alonso, or Raikonnen? And even after he presumably trashes his tires in his race-start getaway, Vettel continues to clock fastest laps throughout the race.

It's simple. If Vettel wasn't one of the greats, he'd be getting beaten by Webber, Hamilton, Rosberg, Alonso, Raikonnen, Grosjean and Massa, just as often as he wins himself.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2013, 01:25 PM   #3
solstice
Colonel
58

 
Drives: 2015 M3 6MT
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle


Posts: 2,492
iTrader: (0)

Webber can't even get to the first corner from pole without having 5 guys passing him, pretty hard to get a 2s lead on lap 1 from 6th or worse.

This is how I rate greatness of a champion from top to bottom:

1. Consistently win in an inferior car.
2. Consistently win over a team mate who has done (3) in a superior car.
3. Consistently win in a superior car.

As far as I'm concerned Vettel is still at number 3. Still great but only with one star.
Or maybe half a star since I also think you need to prove yourself repeatedly to be the fastest guy in the wet.

Last edited by solstice; 11-07-2013 at 01:37 PM.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2013, 02:20 PM   #4
five_timer
no turbo, no auto, no iDrive, no kidding
United_States
2

 
five_timer's Avatar
 
Drives: 128i convertible
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NH


Posts: 166
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Webber can't even get to the first corner from pole without having 5 guys passing him, pretty hard to get a 2s lead on lap 1 from 6th or worse.

This is how I rate greatness of a champion from top to bottom:

1. Consistently win in an inferior car.
2. Consistently win over a team mate who has done (3) in a superior car.
3. Consistently win in a superior car.

As far as I'm concerned Vettel is still at number 3. Still great but only with one star.
Or maybe half a star since I also think you need to prove yourself repeatedly to be the fastest guy in the wet.
In 2008, Vettel scored 35 points vs 4 for Bourdais in the STR-Ferrari, including a race win (I believe in the rain).
In 2009, Vettel outscored teammate Webber with RBR-Renault, and nearly captured the championship from Button in the "superior" Brawn-Mercedes.

Webber is a capable teammate - he outscored Heidfeld in a Williams-BMW and Coulthard in the RBR-Renault. However, his proclivity for bad starts and hard driving shows in the fact that he's never finished higher than 3rd as Vettel's teammate, but has been as low as 6th. I'll argue that this reinforces Vettel's status as a great, since his teammates can't even get close to him driving the same car.

Compare this to Ferrari's dominant years with Schumacher. Barrichello twice finished 2nd to Schumi's 1st, and in one year Massa was third behind Schumi's 2nd. Also, in the year that Schumi got injured, his teammate Irvine finished 2nd, nearly taking the crown from Hakkinen. So the point is that Schumacher's teammates have faired well with the same cars, and came closer to matching him than Webber has with Vettel.

Any questions?
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2013, 02:35 PM   #5
solstice
Colonel
58

 
Drives: 2015 M3 6MT
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle


Posts: 2,492
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by five_timer View Post
In 2008, Vettel scored 35 points vs 4 for Bourdais in the STR-Ferrari, including a race win (I believe in the rain).
In 2009, Vettel outscored teammate Webber with RBR-Renault, and nearly captured the championship from Button in the "superior" Brawn-Mercedes.

Webber is a capable teammate - he outscored Heidfeld in a Williams-BMW and Coulthard in the RBR-Renault. However, his proclivity for bad starts and hard driving shows in the fact that he's never finished higher than 3rd as Vettel's teammate, but has been as low as 6th. I'll argue that this reinforces Vettel's status as a great, since his teammates can't even get close to him driving the same car.

Compare this to Ferrari's dominant years with Schumacher. Barrichello twice finished 2nd to Schumi's 1st, and in one year Massa was third behind Schumi's 2nd. Also, in the year that Schumi got injured, his teammate Irvine finished 2nd, nearly taking the crown from Hakkinen. So the point is that Schumacher's teammates have faired well with the same cars, and came closer to matching him than Webber has with Vettel.

Any questions?
No questions since I already knew and accounted for that. Still level 3 in my books, sorry. It's a pity we didn't get to see Kimi as his team mate. That would have settled any lingering doubts about Vettel. No one cares what I think but as this article shows there exists caution about giving Vettel the subjective status that his objective results should earn him. Consistently out driving Kimi in the same car would settle it for sure.

That's it on this subject from me. I can already se Johaness getting hot under the collar gearing up for a massive counter attack defending VET

Last edited by solstice; 11-07-2013 at 02:49 PM.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2013, 03:08 PM   #6
five_timer
no turbo, no auto, no iDrive, no kidding
United_States
2

 
five_timer's Avatar
 
Drives: 128i convertible
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NH


Posts: 166
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
It's a pity we didn't get to see Kimi as his team mate. That would have settled any lingering doubts about Vettel. No one cares what I think but as this article shows there exists caution about giving Vettel the subjective status that his objective results should earn him. Consistently out driving Kimi in the same car would settle it for sure.
So you're implying that if Kimi, Fernando, or Lewis were driving the other Red Bull instead of Webber, that they too would be able to race away at 2 secs/lap from the start of a race. How unfortunate, then, for Red Bull that they've been strapped for all these years with the one driver who can't do that!
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2013, 03:10 PM   #7
solstice
Colonel
58

 
Drives: 2015 M3 6MT
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle


Posts: 2,492
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by five_timer View Post
So you're implying that if Kimi, Fernando, or Lewis were driving the other Red Bull instead of Webber, that they too would be able to race away at 2 secs/lap from the start of a race. How unfortunate, then, for Red Bull that they've been strapped for all these years with the one driver who can't do that!
Yes, I think that is a very strong possibility, but we'll never know.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2013, 03:58 PM   #8
KingOfJericho
Major General
United_States
93

 
KingOfJericho's Avatar
 
Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT


Posts: 5,163
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
The funny thing is that I don't see anyone poo-pooing Schumacher for his achievements in a car that was far superior to anything else on the grid. They had five straight seasons of 1-2 finishes with nobody doubting his abilities, yet we sit and argue about a driver who runs circles around his teammate as well as all other cars on the grid like he's some worthless hanger-on.

He obviously has the skills as he was scoring points and a win with a shit team. Toro Rosso was a backmarker team before he arrived, achieved successful results with him in the car, then went back to shit results when he left. Do you still want to try and argue that it's the car winning the races at Red Bull?
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2010 S4 Current | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Retired
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2013, 04:25 PM   #9
solstice
Colonel
58

 
Drives: 2015 M3 6MT
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle


Posts: 2,492
iTrader: (0)

Sure Schumi had a similar period where he drove a superior car BUT he also has this:

Wiki quote:
"Schumacher's record in wet conditions shows very few mistakes: up to the end of the 2003 season, Schumacher won 17 of the 30 races in wet conditions"

That is maybe worth more than the 7 championships as measure of pure, raw skills. He is not my favourite driver of all time but he proved at least 17 times that he is more than a product of a fast car. Also, numbers is one thing but watching the races gets you an idea over time of what YOU perceive as really great driving, all of which is not reflected in numbers. I saw enough of Schumi's genius while I need to see more from Vettel for me personally to hold him at Shumi's and Senna's level.

Last edited by solstice; 11-07-2013 at 04:31 PM.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2013, 04:52 PM   #10
KingOfJericho
Major General
United_States
93

 
KingOfJericho's Avatar
 
Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT


Posts: 5,163
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
I'm not saying he is Senna-great, however I don't think he's deserving of this amount of negativity (generally speaking, not specifically by you). We've had mostly dry races for the last several years so it'll definitely take more time for that skill to be proven but he did win his first race in a soaked Monza.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2010 S4 Current | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Retired
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2013, 05:43 PM   #11
solstice
Colonel
58

 
Drives: 2015 M3 6MT
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle


Posts: 2,492
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
I'm not saying he is Senna-great, however I don't think he's deserving of this amount of negativity (generally speaking, not specifically by you). We've had mostly dry races for the last several years so it'll definitely take more time for that skill to be proven but he did win his first race in a soaked Monza.
Yeah, we need more wet races. Still, there's been at least four I can think of with Vettel in the RBR and he has won zero. Two for Alonso and Button each. The Monza win is no doubt a great achievement but as I remember it is his only F1 win in the wet to date. Too few wet races and too few wins to fairly judge on this measure. I do however think that both Senna and Schumi would have bagged at least one of those four wet races at their prime and i think their record supports that guess.

Last edited by solstice; 11-07-2013 at 06:43 PM.
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2013, 07:48 AM   #12
KingOfJericho
Major General
United_States
93

 
KingOfJericho's Avatar
 
Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT


Posts: 5,163
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
Right. "One of the greats" implies that he is a top teir racer. We've already established that Senna is in another league and Schumi trails that, however, we're talking about a 4-time world champion here. To say he is not among the top racers just doesn't add up. You don't win four titles if you don't have top teir skill. Not the best, but certainly among the best. If there have been 300 F1 drivers, he's in the top 10.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2010 S4 Current | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Retired
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2013, 08:31 AM   #13
SenorFunkyPants
Colonel
United Kingdom
47

 
SenorFunkyPants's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK


Posts: 2,580
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
Right. "One of the greats" implies that he is a top teir racer. We've already established that Senna is in another league and Schumi trails that, however, we're talking about a 4-time world champion here. To say he is not among the top racers just doesn't add up. You don't win four titles if you don't have top teir skill. Not the best, but certainly among the best. If there have been 300 F1 drivers, he's in the top 10.
Why would winning titles in a dominant car put you in the top 10?
If the Brawn car had remained dominant and Button had won 3 more titles would you have put him in the top 10 as well? (I wouldn't).
For me what sets apart the very best drivers in F1 is that they stand out all the time in whatever car they drive from their first F1 race...it didn't take a genius to see Senna's potential right from the get go. Vettel has never shown the same qualities, not even close.
Vettel has done a good enough no doubt but assigning a top ten place solely for having the good fortune of being in the right car at the right time seems odd.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2013, 08:51 AM   #14
URBAN LEGEND
Champ
United_States
55

 
URBAN LEGEND's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 M5, '13 ZL1
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Houston


Posts: 2,069
iTrader: (0)

Not this shit again.
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2013, 09:28 AM   #15
KingOfJericho
Major General
United_States
93

 
KingOfJericho's Avatar
 
Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT


Posts: 5,163
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Why would winning titles in a dominant car put you in the top 10?
If the Brawn car had remained dominant and Button had won 3 more titles would you have put him in the top 10 as well? (I wouldn't).
For me what sets apart the very best drivers in F1 is that they stand out all the time in whatever car they drive from their first F1 race...it didn't take a genius to see Senna's potential right from the get go. Vettel has never shown the same qualities, not even close.
Vettel has done a good enough no doubt but assigning a top ten place solely for having the good fortune of being in the right car at the right time seems odd.
Winning a race in a Toro Rosso? Scoring points in his first F1 race in a BMWSauber? You're right... he's only accomplished great things in great cars. Schumi accomplished his greatness in an incredibly dominant Ferrari. They had five straight seasons of 1-2 finishes but that counts as legendary and Vettel isn't?
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2010 S4 Current | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Retired
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2013, 09:37 AM   #16
five_timer
no turbo, no auto, no iDrive, no kidding
United_States
2

 
five_timer's Avatar
 
Drives: 128i convertible
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NH


Posts: 166
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
For me what sets apart the very best drivers in F1 is that they stand out all the time in whatever car they drive from their first F1 race...it didn't take a genius to see Senna's potential right from the get go. Vettel has never shown the same qualities, not even close.
Let's see: Vettel started his F1 career as the kid who was consistently topping the time-sheets in practice. Then, in his first drive, he became the youngest driver ever to score a point. In the same season, he scored points when he replaced Scott Speed at STR. In his first full season as a driver, he finished 8th in the championship with a backmarker car. Then he moved to RBR, and finished 2nd in the championship to Button in the Brawn.

So in conclusion, what the hell are you talking about?
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2013, 10:08 AM   #17
SenorFunkyPants
Colonel
United Kingdom
47

 
SenorFunkyPants's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK


Posts: 2,580
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by five_timer View Post
Let's see: Vettel started his F1 career as the kid who was consistently topping the time-sheets in practice. Then, in his first drive, he became the youngest driver ever to score a point.
In a car that had placed 4,4,4,4,5,2 in the previous races, Vettel only managed 8th nearly a lap down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by five_timer View Post
Then he moved to RBR, and finished 2nd in the championship to Button in the Brawn.
Finishing slightly ahead of the apparently rubbish Webber in 2009.
Finishing only just ahead of the apparently rubbish Webber in 2010.
Not exactly inspiring.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2013, 10:45 AM   #18
cossied
New Member
0

 
Drives: 2008 z4 3.0si
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: south wales


Posts: 24
iTrader: (0)

lets put this on hold for another 5 years he is only 26.
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2013, 10:52 AM   #19
five_timer
no turbo, no auto, no iDrive, no kidding
United_States
2

 
five_timer's Avatar
 
Drives: 128i convertible
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NH


Posts: 166
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Finishing slightly ahead of the apparently rubbish Webber in 2009. Finishing only just ahead of the apparently rubbish Webber in 2010.
How is 2 positions "slightly ahead", unless you are blinded by bias? And I, for one, never said Webber is rubbish, that's your slant.
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2013, 12:22 PM   #20
SenorFunkyPants
Colonel
United Kingdom
47

 
SenorFunkyPants's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK


Posts: 2,580
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by five_timer View Post
How is 2 positions "slightly ahead",
2009 was a season when Webber was on course to finish ahead of Vettel.
[Vettel was only]14 points ahead at the end after Webber had 5 no scores in the last 7 races so its not something to get excited about.
2010 could have gone either way at the last race....this was the season when RBRs bias towards Vettel became very public with the front wing fiasco.
__________________

Last edited by SenorFunkyPants; 11-08-2013 at 02:41 PM.
Appreciate 0
      11-17-2013, 04:05 PM   #21
johanness
Banned
36

 
Drives: 2008 Z4MC
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Seattle, Vancouver


Posts: 1,741
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I can already se Johaness getting hot under the collar gearing up for a massive counter attack defending VET
Vettel needs no defending. He's well on his way to become THE greatest driver of all time. Whether an opinionated armchair-jockey believes it or not is irrelevant.

We're actually lucky to witness this history-in-the-making unfold right before our eyes. I'll bump this thread in another 4 years for a comedic lookback to the nay-saying. The same brilliant minds that said he couldn't pass, can only win from the front, bla bla bla.

Credit where credit is due.
Appreciate 0
      11-19-2013, 12:29 PM   #22
E90SLAM
Supreme Allied Commander
Hong Kong
894

 
E90SLAM's Avatar
 
Drives: A BBS WHORE
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: .


Posts: 61,160
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2006 330i  [4.67]
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanness View Post
Vettel needs no defending. He's well on his way to become THE greatest driver of all time. Whether an opinionated armchair-jockey believes it or not is irrelevant.

We're actually lucky to witness this history-in-the-making unfold right before our eyes. I'll bump this thread in another 4 years for a comedic lookback to the nay-saying. The same brilliant minds that said he couldn't pass, can only win from the front, bla bla bla.

Credit where credit is due.
I agree as a non-Vettel fan!

Why does Vettel need to "prove himself"? A four time champions speaks for itself.

If he can win from pole, why not? that's what qualifying is for. Do the fastest lap to your advantage on Sunday afternoon. 99.9% of drivers would prefer to win from pole if they can.

If some viewers wants proof. Just look at last season, he had to start from the back several times (Abu Dhabi, Brazil). Button did it in 2009 and we called it a "championship drive". Then we apply the same logic to Vettel last year, that's also a worthy championship drive.

Personally I don't like how Vettel dominates the field and make racing seems boring. But again, credits to all RBR staff and Vettel for a 4x double champion. That was some amazing achievements!!!

It is not RBR or Vettel's fault to make the best of their equipment and go fast. Its other teams who tripped themselves on the foot and not able to consistently challenge RBR.

Just because they dominate, and we cannot be fair to them? RBR got serious and start winning, what's the problem?
__________________
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:35 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST