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      10-12-2013, 02:33 PM   #1
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Clubsport guys need input Street & Track.

Just got my KW clubsports delivered and will be installing on tuesday.

Im looking for a good starting point for street & track alignment that works well with the M3 and i am open to suggestions. I also wanted to know what you guys are running for bump and rebound? I will be running a square 275 setup at the track btw. The car is driven on the street but its not my daily driver, i want to start with an alignment setting that wont be so hard on the street setup and not be terribly bad for side wear on the track setup, basically a good intermediate point and i thought you guys might have some suggestions.

Thanks in advance
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      10-13-2013, 11:29 PM   #2
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I would recommend around -3 degrees up front and -2 degrees rear.

Good luck!
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      10-14-2013, 12:48 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by M3ANMACHINE View Post
I would recommend around -3 degrees up front and -2 degrees rear.

Good luck!
Thanks for the reply man. That setup sounds aggressive, how bad is tire wear on the street with that setup?
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      10-14-2013, 10:34 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by M3ANMACHINE View Post
I would recommend around -3 degrees up front and -2 degrees rear.

Good luck!
Thanks for the reply man. That setup sounds aggressive, how bad is tire wear on the street with that setup?
Tire wear is more affected by toe, not camber. Common misconception.
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      10-14-2013, 12:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by track_warrior View Post
Just got my KW clubsports delivered and will be installing on tuesday.

Im looking for a good starting point for street & track alignment that works well with the M3 and i am open to suggestions. I also wanted to know what you guys are running for bump and rebound? I will be running a square 275 setup at the track btw. The car is driven on the street but its not my daily driver, i want to start with an alignment setting that wont be so hard on the street setup and not be terribly bad for side wear on the track setup, basically a good intermediate point and i thought you guys might have some suggestions.

Thanks in advance
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3ANMACHINE View Post
I would recommend around -3 degrees up front and -2 degrees rear.

Good luck!
On the E9x platform, you do not need to run -3.0* of front camber or -2.0* of rear camber.

Multiple days of track testing with different pyrometers, shows that -2.6* of camber up front and -1.8* of camber out back is what the car prefers the most with a 275 square tire setup and the best way to optimize contact patch. This will of course change and vary with different tire setups (square vs. non square). But based on your question on what the car does best with on a 275 square setup my recommendation would be the following for you:

FRONT:
-2.6* Camber per side
1/64" Toe IN per side

REAR:
-1.8* Camber per side
I cannot make a rear toe recommendation for you as I do not know the vehicle ride height. This will vary depending on height setup as the height selected will affect rear geometry and different settings will have to be applied.
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      10-14-2013, 02:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek@MRF View Post
On the E9x platform, you do not need to run -3.0* of front camber or -2.0* of rear camber.

Multiple days of track testing with different pyrometers, shows that -2.6* of camber up front and -1.8* of camber out back is what the car prefers the most with a 275 square tire setup and the best way to optimize contact patch. This will of course change and vary with different tire setups (square vs. non square). But based on your question on what the car does best with on a 275 square setup my recommendation would be the following for you:

FRONT:
-2.6* Camber per side
1/64" Toe IN per side

REAR:
-1.8* Camber per side
I cannot make a rear toe recommendation for you as I do not know the vehicle ride height. This will vary depending on height setup as the height selected will affect rear geometry and different settings will have to be applied.
Words of wisdom! I have been running the same alignment and couldn't have been happier with the front end grip. James Clay back in the days told me the same thing. Reconfirmed after speaking with a fellow racer with an E9X chassis as I was thinking of adding more rear camber.

However with -2.6 camber up front and 0 toe, my inside tires are wearing fairly quickly and have to get them flipped 7K miles. So budget for a set of fronts and rears at the same time (assuming you are flipping the fronts too).

Malek, to get more rear end grip especially on high speed sweepers, would you recommend square or staggered with something like 295s at the back?

Cheers,

Lutfy
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      10-14-2013, 04:32 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek@MRF View Post
On the E9x platform, you do not need to run -3.0* of front camber or -2.0* of rear camber.

Multiple days of track testing with different pyrometers, shows that -2.6* of camber up front and -1.8* of camber out back is what the car prefers the most with a 275 square tire setup and the best way to optimize contact patch. This will of course change and vary with different tire setups (square vs. non square). But based on your question on what the car does best with on a 275 square setup my recommendation would be the following for you:

FRONT:
-2.6* Camber per side
1/64" Toe IN per side

REAR:
-1.8* Camber per side
I cannot make a rear toe recommendation for you as I do not know the vehicle ride height. This will vary depending on height setup as the height selected will affect rear geometry and different settings will have to be applied.
Thanks for the suggestion, how is the toe affecting tire wear. Do you suggest i try that toe or should i try a different setting since the car is track & street. I hit the track once or twice a month from october to may but even though she is not my daily driver i enjoy driving her every now and then to work. Also what rebound and bump are you running? Thanks in advance
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      10-14-2013, 06:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek@MRF View Post
On the E9x platform, you do not need to run -3.0* of front camber or -2.0* of rear camber.

Multiple days of track testing with different pyrometers, shows that -2.6* of camber up front and -1.8* of camber out back is what the car prefers the most with a 275 square tire setup and the best way to optimize contact patch. This will of course change and vary with different tire setups (square vs. non square). But based on your question on what the car does best with on a 275 square setup my recommendation would be the following for you:

FRONT:
-2.6* Camber per side
1/64" Toe IN per side

REAR:
-1.8* Camber per side
I cannot make a rear toe recommendation for you as I do not know the vehicle ride height. This will vary depending on height setup as the height selected will affect rear geometry and different settings will have to be applied.
Listen to this guy; he knows his stuff. I just had a fantastic track day on suspension set up by Malek.
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      10-14-2013, 07:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lutfy View Post
Words of wisdom! I have been running the same alignment and couldn't have been happier with the front end grip. James Clay back in the days told me the same thing. Reconfirmed after speaking with a fellow racer with an E9X chassis as I was thinking of adding more rear camber.

However with -2.6 camber up front and 0 toe, my inside tires are wearing fairly quickly and have to get them flipped 7K miles. So budget for a set of fronts and rears at the same time (assuming you are flipping the fronts too).

Malek, to get more rear end grip especially on high speed sweepers, would you recommend square or staggered with something like 295s at the back?

Cheers,

Lutfy
For the street, I would never run anything more than -2.0* of camber on the front end with 1/32" Toe IN per side. If you run those values, your tires will thank you in the long run and you should be able to get 15k or so out of them (depending on the type of tire of course).

I do not like running 295 rubber on the back of the E9x platform because in order to achieve such a width in the back, a relatively conservative offset has to be used. When the rear offset is overly conservative with respect to the front, what happens is that the overall balance is disturbed. The reason for this is because the E9x M3 naturally has a square track width front to rear. When the very wide wheel/tire setups are implemented out back, the overall track width ends up becoming trapezoidal and not square, meaning the front end has more overall width with respect to the rear, and the rear end does not feel right any longer and in fact can begin to feel unstable. This is one of the main reasons why BMW remained with 285/30/19 tires on the M3 GTS on the 359M wheels.

The car does very well with 265/275 front and a 285 rear. I have had good success with 275 square as well, but it takes a lot to get used to because the car tends to rotate much easier and the back can step out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by track_warrior View Post
Thanks for the suggestion, how is the toe affecting tire wear. Do you suggest i try that toe or should i try a different setting since the car is track & street. I hit the track once or twice a month from october to may but even though she is not my daily driver i enjoy driving her every now and then to work. Also what rebound and bump are you running? Thanks in advance
The Rebound/Compression settings will vary based on setup, however on the KW C/S suspension, I tend to keep the Compression values at 5F/5R. For Rebound, again, dependent on tire and wheel setup, I use 2F/3R.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
Listen to this guy; he knows his stuff. I just had a fantastic track day on suspension set up by Malek.
Thanks Brett. Can't wait for the next event.
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      10-14-2013, 07:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by track_warrior View Post
Just got my KW clubsports delivered and will be installing on tuesday.

Im looking for a good starting point for street & track alignment that works well with the M3 and i am open to suggestions. I also wanted to know what you guys are running for bump and rebound? I will be running a square 275 setup at the track btw. The car is driven on the street but its not my daily driver, i want to start with an alignment setting that wont be so hard on the street setup and not be terribly bad for side wear on the track setup, basically a good intermediate point and i thought you guys might have some suggestions.

Thanks in advance
Malek setup my camber for hybrid street track combo. I like it.

For the Bump and Rebound settings I had tested several settings. For street I use 7F/7R bump and 8F/12R rebound. For the street I noticed when I had bump to hard i would skip or walk sideways after hitting a bump in the road while turning a corner.

I will be hitting the track saturday and I will tighten it up a little. Probably bump 5F/5R and compression 6F/9R.
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      10-15-2013, 02:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggynuts01 View Post
Malek setup my camber for hybrid street track combo. I like it.

For the Bump and Rebound settings I had tested several settings. For street I use 7F/7R bump and 8F/12R rebound. For the street I noticed when I had bump to hard i would skip or walk sideways after hitting a bump in the road while turning a corner.

I will be hitting the track saturday and I will tighten it up a little. Probably bump 5F/5R and compression 6F/9R.
The clicks are you talking from are starting clockwise or counter clockwise? So is 0 is all the way to the left then the clicks are clockwise right?
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      10-15-2013, 02:20 PM   #12
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The clicks are you talking from are starting clockwise or counter clockwise? So is 0 is all the way to the left then the clicks are clockwise right?
Clicks start from full lock, I believe full counter clockwise. then turn clockwise to to soften it up. Its in the manual.
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      10-20-2013, 03:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek@MRF View Post
On the E9x platform, you do not need to run -3.0* of front camber or -2.0* of rear camber.

Multiple days of track testing with different pyrometers, shows that -2.6* of camber up front and -1.8* of camber out back is what the car prefers the most with a 275 square tire setup and the best way to optimize contact patch. This will of course change and vary with different tire setups (square vs. non square). But based on your question on what the car does best with on a 275 square setup my recommendation would be the following for you:

FRONT:
-2.6* Camber per side
1/64" Toe IN per side

REAR:
-1.8* Camber per side
I cannot make a rear toe recommendation for you as I do not know the vehicle ride height. This will vary depending on height setup as the height selected will affect rear geometry and different settings will have to be applied.
Thank you so much for this advice Malek, it worked flawlessly. I managed to drop a full second off my lap time and tire temps were perfect.

Im surprised how well these coilovers ride on the street and on the track, i spoke to kw and they recommended i not mess with the settings, since they test at the ring and my local track is also bumpy i decided to leave the shock settings as they came from the factory and it works perfectly. Its a stiff ride but not jaw breaking, i actually think it rides much better than the stock suspension on eibach's.

Some pics of the Coilovers and install, DBC Tuning in San Antonio did an awesome job with the alignment and install.

Some pics of the install and the track:













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      10-24-2013, 02:42 PM   #14
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Good information from Malek. I have never run more than -1.8* in the rear on my 335; it compromises traction under hard loaded acceleration and unnecessary tire wear. In terms of the front, I have always maxed out my camber regardless of street/track. I do not have a dedicated track wheel/tire setup and go through tires fairly frequently (although they are RS3 and relatively cheap). Per street I would run around 2.5 or so. Per track, I don't know why or how Malek determined -2.6* would be ideal for a certain setup. Perhaps he can chim in with how he determined such information (not saying it's wrong just interested). I have, and will always, run max camber (up front) at the track, which is around -3.3*.

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      10-24-2013, 04:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autosport View Post
Good information from Malek. I have never run more than -1.8* in the rear on my 335; it compromises traction under hard loaded acceleration and unnecessary tire wear. In terms of the front, I have always maxed out my camber regardless of street/track. I do not have a dedicated track wheel/tire setup and go through tires fairly frequently (although they are RS3 and relatively cheap). Per street I would run around 2.5 or so. Per track, I don't know why or how Malek determined -2.6* would be ideal for a certain setup. Perhaps he can chim in with how he determined such information (not saying it's wrong just interested). I have, and will always, run max camber (up front) at the track, which is around -3.3*.

-Mike
Through the use of both contact and infrared pyrometers I have come to these results time and time again.

As said in the original post, wheel widths and offsets will affect this because contact patch is affected through these 2 parameters. If a 10" wide front wheel is being used with the typical 20-25mm offsets, the camber angle previously specified with those toe values yield optimal tire temperatures. As you know, suspension tuning is not a one size fits all approach.

I agree with you on the -1.8* on the rear end. Anything more is not necessary and only reduces traction and stability.
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      10-24-2013, 04:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek@MRF View Post
Through the use of both contact and infrared pyrometers I have come to these results time and time again.

As said in the original post, wheel widths and offsets will affect this because contact patch is affected through these 2 parameters. If a 10" wide front wheel is being used with the typical 20-25mm offsets, the camber angle previously specified with those toe values yield optimal tire temperatures. As you know, suspension tuning is not a one size fits all approach.

I agree with you on the -1.8* on the rear end. Anything more is not necessary and only reduces traction and stability.
Interesting. Good stuff! I will hopefully be seeing you out on the track this season (blue 335i with the wing aka turb0mike), it's been a while.

-Mike
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      10-26-2013, 09:44 AM   #17
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Great information! Thanks
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      10-26-2013, 12:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggynuts01 View Post
Clicks start from full lock, I believe full counter clockwise. then turn clockwise to to soften it up. Its in the manual.
Always go full clockwise and then count backwards, not full soft then count clockwise. Going full counterclockwise may damage the damper.

Quote:
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Interesting. Good stuff! I will hopefully be seeing you out on the track this season (blue 335i with the wing aka turb0mike), it's been a while.

-Mike
Absolutely!
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      10-27-2013, 01:49 PM   #19
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So even though these are twintube are the KW clubsports holding up to aggressive track use without overheating. Looking at purchasing a set next week or the Pss10s.
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      10-28-2013, 01:03 PM   #20
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So even though these are twintube are the KW clubsports holding up to aggressive track use without overheating. Looking at purchasing a set next week or the Pss10s.
They are far superior to the PSS10 suspension from Bilstein. Yes they hold up excellent for track usage as that is what they are for. The Clubsport and Competition, with the Competition line being even more superior to the Clubsport, line from KW are streetable track coilovers, where as the V3 line are trackable street coilovers.

You can think of it like this as well.. The Brembo GT kit BBK is a trackable street kit, whereas the GTR kit is a streetable track BBK. Makes sense?
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      10-29-2013, 05:11 PM   #21
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They are far superior to the PSS10 suspension from Bilstein. Yes they hold up excellent for track usage as that is what they are for. The Clubsport and Competition, with the Competition line being even more superior to the Clubsport, line from KW are streetable track coilovers, where as the V3 line are trackable street coilovers.

You can think of it like this as well.. The Brembo GT kit BBK is a trackable street kit, whereas the GTR kit is a streetable track BBK. Makes sense?
I agree with this, KW V3 is a great street coilover that wont embarrass you at the track and the Clubsports are Great track coilovers that wont embarrass you on the street. I am extremely happy with mine, after a 30 min session they held up great, and thanks to the alignment settings suggested the car runs like a champ.
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Compensating a heavy car with horsepower is like giving an alcoholic cocaine to sober him up...
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      01-04-2014, 10:50 PM   #22
IDreamOfEvos
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Great thread.
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