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      10-16-2013, 12:10 PM   #45
Z K
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Plants have been modified since the dawn of agriculture. Direct gene manipulation is just the latest way to do this. It's using a scalpel for what we used to use a hammer for. The way your crop is modified is not inherently good or bad; the end results are. This is analogous to how a book written on a computer isn't inherently better or worse than one written by hand; it's just a lot easier to do on a computer.
Exactly, the methods have changed but the results are the same. Instead of modification by breeding and selection of desirable traits over generations, it is now faster.

There are some questionable GMO products (plants modified so you can't grow more than 1 generation at a time without buying new seeds) but the majority are good and make for more durable plants and allow them to grow in places that they couldn't before. With modern crop rotations to maintain soil nutrition and durable and more nutritious plants, you can grow a lot more than ever.

Not to say organic plants and products are bad... it just isn't the solution to a starving world.
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      10-16-2013, 02:20 PM   #46
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      10-16-2013, 03:54 PM   #47
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Plants have been modified since the dawn of agriculture. Direct gene manipulation is just the latest way to do this. It's using a scalpel for what we used to use a hammer for. The way your crop is modified is not inherently good or bad; the end results are. This is analogous to how a book written on a computer isn't inherently better or worse than one written by hand; it's just a lot easier to do on a computer.

GMO crops are commonly developed to resist pests with less need for pesticides. They're developed to be RoundUp resistant so we can now use roundup herbicide instead of the far more toxic herbicides we had to use in the past. They can also be developed to be more drought resistant, sometime more nutritious, to have DRAMATICALLY more edible yield per acre, and to be adaptable to different soils with less need for chemical fertilizers. Their biggest threat to the environment is that far fewer people starve to death, contributing to population growth. No peer-reviewed study has shown negative health consequences. Monsanto has only ever sued farmers who violate their contracts, and then donates the proceeds to charity.

I'd say an overall win, eh?



Not one thing you've said is true.

Organic farming is not hard at all. There's no reason organic food has to cost more money, as you can get better yields with very little cost. Modern farming methods decrease the quality of soil over time, wheras organic farming improves the soil over time. GMO's are not sustainable.

And btw Monsanto has also sued nongmo farmers that got their crops contaminated and reused their seeds. Its all about profit.
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      10-16-2013, 04:13 PM   #48
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You can't just dismiss everything as untrue without saying why. Check the references. If you're bringing up the cross-pollination issue it demonstrates you didn't even watch the videos as it was addressed in great detail (short version: this has only happened one time [farmer- not farmers] and there was ample evidence the guy was using the seeds illegally.) This guy got his ass handed to him in court so now he just tries to get back by appearing in propaganda pieces that only tell his lies. They spend a lot to develop their seeds to make a profit. If you don't want to use their seeds, don't buy them or steal them.

Organic farming IS less productive. Starvation was far more common back when everything was organic. Do you think farmers use modern methods for the recreational aspects? If they could get the same yields reliably for the same amount of work, and charge organic prices, THEY WOULD. Like you said- it's all about profit, and this would increase profit. If organic is healthier and just as cost effective, then the market will do its job.

BTW- it's funny nobody ever brings up the health risks of organic farming. The natural fertilizers (manure) and reluctance to use cleaners and preservatives dramatically increase your risk of getting ecoli and salmonela. Organic is about 1% of the food supply but responsible for 8% of ecoli cases according to the CDC, so you're 800% more likely to get ecoli from organic. Consumer Reports measured high levels of salmonela on organic chicken. In Napa, non-organic vineyards have to use excess fungicide because they can't wipe out a particular fungus due to it being harbored in the organic vineyards.

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      10-16-2013, 05:41 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by carve View Post
You can't just dismiss everything as untrue without saying why. Check the references. If you're bringing up the cross-pollination issue it demonstrates you didn't even watch the videos as it was addressed in great detail (short version: this has only happened one time [farmer- not farmers] and there was ample evidence the guy was using the seeds illegally.) This guy got his ass handed to him in court so now he just tries to get back by appearing in propaganda pieces that only tell his lies. They spend a lot to develop their seeds to make a profit. If you don't want to use their seeds, don't buy them or steal them.

Organic farming IS less productive. Starvation was far more common back when everything was organic. Do you think farmers use modern methods for the recreational aspects? If they could get the same yields reliably for the same amount of work, and charge organic prices, THEY WOULD. Like you said- it's all about profit, and this would increase profit. If organic is healthier and just as cost effective, then the market will do its job.

BTW- it's funny nobody ever brings up the health risks of organic farming. The natural fertilizers (manure) and reluctance to use cleaners and preservatives dramatically increase your risk of getting ecoli and salmonela. Organic is about 1% of the food supply but responsible for 8% of ecoli cases according to the CDC, so you're 800% more likely to get ecoli from organic. Consumer Reports measured high levels of salmonela on organic chicken. In Napa, non-organic vineyards have to use excess fungicide because they can't wipe out a particular fungus due to it being harbored in the organic vineyards.
Contamination is almost guaranteed, and it's happened more than once. Obviously you don't understand how plants produce offspring. Wind carries pollen, or pollinators such as bees carry it from one place to another. With gmo's being planted in open fields theres no way to prevent it.

Organic farming is not less productive. In the days of organic farming people didn't know as much about plants and we didn't have the equipment we do now, so they had lower yields.

There are also alot of organic methods people aren't aware of to keep away weeds and pests without using harmful chemicals, and using organic fertilizers such as manure is simply recycling nutrients. Recycling is necessary to sustainably feed the world.

Your argument about salmonella is flawed, that is caused by improperly using fertilizers. You should always fertilize after the growing season so that way there is enough time for soil microbes to break down the waste before the next crop is planted. There are also other alternatives such as nitrogen fixing cover crops.

GMO's have increased the cost of farming for many reasons. Farmers have no choice but to pay Monsanto every year for their seeds, plus the cost of herbicides and pesticides, and then the added cost to send someone out in a hazmat suit to spray your food. BT corn caused a massive die-off of bees in oregon not long ago. There is a reason so many countries have banned GMO's, why not the U.S? Is it because the corporations own our government? I think so. If you look at how the Monsanto Protection Act got introduced into congress you will realize that is true.
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      10-16-2013, 06:08 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
You can't just dismiss everything as untrue without saying why. Check the references. If you're bringing up the cross-pollination issue it demonstrates you didn't even watch the videos as it was addressed in great detail (short version: this has only happened one time [farmer- not farmers] and there was ample evidence the guy was using the seeds illegally.) This guy got his ass handed to him in court so now he just tries to get back by appearing in propaganda pieces that only tell his lies. They spend a lot to develop their seeds to make a profit. If you don't want to use their seeds, don't buy them or steal them.

Organic farming IS less productive. Starvation was far more common back when everything was organic. Do you think farmers use modern methods for the recreational aspects? If they could get the same yields reliably for the same amount of work, and charge organic prices, THEY WOULD. Like you said- it's all about profit, and this would increase profit. If organic is healthier and just as cost effective, then the market will do its job.

BTW- it's funny nobody ever brings up the health risks of organic farming. The natural fertilizers (manure) and reluctance to use cleaners and preservatives dramatically increase your risk of getting ecoli and salmonela. Organic is about 1% of the food supply but responsible for 8% of ecoli cases according to the CDC, so you're 800% more likely to get ecoli from organic. Consumer Reports measured high levels of salmonela on organic chicken. In Napa, non-organic vineyards have to use excess fungicide because they can't wipe out a particular fungus due to it being harbored in the organic vineyards.
Its a losing battle, he has the kool aid running through his veins.
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      10-16-2013, 06:34 PM   #51
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Being in San Francisco, there are a ton of organic and naturally grown foods. It's almost the only thing any mid to high end restaurant serves here. It is fine, but it's expensive and can't be grown in the scale needed to feed everyone safely.

This reminds me of the current fad of people drinking raw milk. While pasteurization kills some nutrients in the milk, it also kills a lot of bacteria, viruses and other stuff in the milk itself and saves lives.
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      10-16-2013, 07:17 PM   #52
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Again- you obviously didn't watch the videos, nor the Penn and Teller one on page 2.

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Contamination is almost guaranteed, and it's happened more than once. Obviously you don't understand how plants produce offspring. Wind carries pollen, or pollinators such as bees carry it from one place to another. With gmo's being planted in open fields theres no way to prevent it.
Did you watch the video? Most farmers buy new seed every year anyway, and most pollination happens within the crop. The guy who sued...90% of samples in his crop were 100% Monsanto.

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Organic farming is not less productive. In the days of organic farming people didn't know as much about plants and we didn't have the equipment we do now, so they had lower yields.
It necessarily is. You need to leave some land to clover or something to enrich the soil with nitrogen from manure, and then the rest is more vulnerable to pests. According to the PEER REVIEWED journal "Nature", typical yields are 34% lower, although with certain legumes under ideal conditions they can be as little as 5% lower. It does not mention whether the yields are achieved at the same cost
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture11069.html
Those numbers are actually higher than I expected, and I suspect it's only for when the desired crop is planted, vs. rotation and fallowing of less desirable crops like clover.


Quote:
Your argument about salmonella is flawed, that is caused by improperly using fertilizers. You should always fertilize after the growing season so that way there is enough time for soil microbes to break down the waste before the next crop is planted. There are also other alternatives such as nitrogen fixing cover crops.
Then you know more than the farmers, because that's what actually happens. How is basing it on measurable data "flawed"? You forgot to address the ecoli risk from manure fertilizer.

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GMO's have increased the cost of farming for many reasons. Farmers have no choice but to pay Monsanto every year for their seeds, plus the cost of herbicides and pesticides, and then the added cost to send someone out in a hazmat suit to spray your food. BT corn caused a massive die-off of bees in oregon not long ago. There is a reason so many countries have banned GMO's, why not the U.S? Is it because the corporations own our government? I think so. If you look at how the Monsanto Protection Act got introduced into congress you will realize that is true.
Nobody is forced to use GMO or Monsanto brand seeds or herbicides or pesticides (even lawsuits on cross-poliniation were speculative. Hasn't actually happened yet). They can use whatever they like or grow their own. They use Monsanto because, despite the expense, they get greater yields for less money in chemicals and irrigation. The links between GMO corn and bee die-offs was pure speculation with no evidence. Other countries banning GMO's has to do with propaganda-swayed public opnion- not with any evidence. The same kind of mods can often be made traditionally- it just takes decades or centuries of selective breeding.

You're treating this like a religious view.

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      10-16-2013, 11:21 PM   #53
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Again- you obviously didn't watch the videos, nor the Penn and Teller one on page 2.


Did you watch the video? Most farmers buy new seed every year anyway, and most pollination happens within the crop. The guy who sued...90% of samples in his crop were 100% Monsanto.



It necessarily is. You need to leave some land to clover or something to enrich the soil with nitrogen from manure, and then the rest is more vulnerable to pests. According to the PEER REVIEWED journal "Nature", typical yields are 34% lower, although with certain legumes under ideal conditions they can be as little as 5% lower. It does not mention whether the yields are achieved at the same cost
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture11069.html
Those numbers are actually higher than I expected, and I suspect it's only for when the desired crop is planted, vs. rotation and fallowing of less desirable crops like clover.




Then you know more than the farmers, because that's what actually happens. How is basing it on measurable data "flawed"? You forgot to address the ecoli risk from manure fertilizer.



Nobody is forced to use GMO or Monsanto brand seeds or herbicides or pesticides (even lawsuits on cross-poliniation were speculative. Hasn't actually happened yet). They can use whatever they like or grow their own. They use Monsanto because, despite the expense, they get greater yields for less money in chemicals and irrigation. The links between GMO corn and bee die-offs was pure speculation with no evidence. Other countries banning GMO's has to do with propaganda-swayed public opnion- not with any evidence. The same kind of mods can often be made traditionally- it just takes decades or centuries of selective breeding.

You're treating this like a religious view.
Without GMO's farmers can reuse their sees without getting sued, saving money. My whole point about ecoli was if the manure has enough time to decompose there is no risk.
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      10-16-2013, 11:23 PM   #54
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Its a losing battle, he has the kool aid running through his veins.
I dont drink kool aid, because of the artificial flavors and coloring.
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      10-16-2013, 11:44 PM   #55
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Without GMO's farmers can reuse their sees without getting sued, saving money. My whole point about ecoli was if the manure has enough time to decompose there is no risk.
They didn't reuse seeds before, but if they want to start, it's a simple solution: buy from one of the companies that allows you to reuse seeds rather than a GMO company like Monsanto. What's the problem?

Composting manure typically isn't done properly. It has to get up to 160* for 6 days. Unlikely to have the controls. The reality is it doesn't happen, even if it could.
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      10-17-2013, 08:34 AM   #56
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Nothing is this black and white. There are merits to both sides, but the reality, like everything else in life, lies in between.

Organic does not by definition equal healthier or better - in fact, no measurable health benefits over conventionally farmer products have been proven.

I see my friends post crap about Monsanto (usually from sites that also have articles on 9/11 conspiracies and ancient alien visitors that built the pyramids) that is neither peer-reviewed nor scientific, merely wild claims and exaggerations without convincing or thoughtful substantiation. Considering that many people's livelihoods depend on Monsanto (and other vilified "evil" corporations), it is amazing that people are so willing to accept accusations without proof and to attempt to destroy lives with little thought. Rather than simply accepting what you read online and saying your studies are better, you should be more flexible and open minded to the possibility that you are wrong. Going all in on your opinion is usually a losing strategy.

While this is a blog, the sources are peer-reviewed, scientific studies.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...l-agriculture/

"Not only are organic pesticides not safe, they might actually be worse than the ones used by the conventional agriculture industry. Canadian scientists pitted ‘reduced-risk’ organic and synthetic pesticides against each other in controlling a problematic pest, the soybean aphid. They found that not only were the synthetic pesticides more effective means of control, the organic pesticides were more ecologically damaging, including causing higher mortality in other, non-target species like the aphid’s predators9. Of course, some organic pesticides may fare better than these ones did in similar head-to-head tests, but studies like this one reveal that the assumption that natural is better for the environment could be very dangerous.

Even if the organic food you’re eating is from a farm which uses little to no pesticides at all, there is another problem: getting rid of pesticides doesn’t mean your food is free from harmful things. Between 1990 and 2001, over 10,000 people fell ill due to foods contaminated with pathogens like E. coli, and many have organic foods to blame. That’s because organic foods tend to have higher levels of potential pathogens. One study, for example, found E. coli in produce from almost 10% of organic farms samples, but only 2% of conventional ones10. The same study also found Salmonella only in samples from organic farms, though at a low prevalence rate. The reason for the higher pathogen prevalence is likely due to the use of manure instead of artificial fertilizers, as many pathogens are spread through fecal contamination. Conventional farms often use manure, too, but they use irradiation and a full array of non-organic anti-microbial agents as well, and without those, organic foods run a higher risk of containing something that will make a person sick."
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      10-17-2013, 09:20 AM   #57
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bt toxins in corn are all the creations of Monsanto.



BT corn caused a massive die-off of bees in oregon not long ago
Bacillus thuringiensis is an insecticidal protein found in soil bacteria. It USDA certified organic and used LIBERALLY on organic crops. It is one of the most widely used organic pesticides.
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      10-17-2013, 12:50 PM   #58
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I think it should be noted that harmful strains of E. coli are much more prevalent now because of the way factory farmed cows are produced. Research has shown that diet has a significant impact on gut flora, and grain fed cows tend to have higher concentrations of harmful acid resistant E. coli.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19351974

I have nothing against GMOs as a technology, but Monsanto does have a track record of unethical and irresponsible business practices. The appeal of GMOs and their benefits are degraded when their ambassador is so corrupt. Underhandedly flooding the market with GMO seeds without consumer knowledge was not the right way to introduce a technology with real merits. This is what started the fear of GMOs, and it can only be alleviated through transparency.

Our outdated food policy also heavily subsidizes corn and soybeans, which makes our messed up food production system artificially cheap. This mostly benefits big ag who is already earning the most money. Remove the subsidies, and let the free market work itself out.

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      10-17-2013, 02:20 PM   #59
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Bacillus thuringiensis is an insecticidal protein found in soil bacteria. It USDA certified organic and used LIBERALLY on organic crops. It is one of the most widely used organic pesticides.
Sure it is being used already, but the levels of bt found in bt corn are much higher since it is produced by every cell in the plant.

You have to remember this is the company that brought you aspartame, saccharin, PCB's, DDT, dioxin, agent orange, roundup, and rBGH. And you really trust them with your food.
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      10-18-2013, 11:59 AM   #60
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Well finally some progress is being made. Congress ended the Monsanto protection act.
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      10-18-2013, 12:21 PM   #61
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Entertaining thread to say the least. Would read again.
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      10-18-2013, 12:41 PM   #62
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I have some questions for the anti-monsanto crowd. Do you drink water from the tap, a bottle or a fountain? All contain bio-chemicals to purify the water that is consumed. Do you wear Gucci, or Polo or any other main stream manufacturer? All produced with textiles treated in massive chemicals prior to production. Do you wear deodorant or shave? All have carcinogenic chemicals of some sort that can/cannot be directly linked to cancer.

My point is, if it is such a worry (GMOs) then purchase from your local farm stands or butchers that you know an trust to be selling "free" foods. Someone said it here, we've been manipulating foods for 1000s of years. It's not about the foods, its about what YOU consume, how much and how often.

Not disparraging anyone, but standing up against GMOs saying you eat healthy, is like PETA protesting and wearing a full leather belt, shoes and driving a vehicle with leather seating.
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      10-18-2013, 12:59 PM   #63
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Well finally some progress is being made. Congress ended the Monsanto protection act.
I have not seen anything about this. Where did you get the data?
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      10-18-2013, 01:00 PM   #64
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I have some questions for the anti-monsanto crowd. Do you drink water from the tap, a bottle or a fountain? All contain bio-chemicals to purify the water that is consumed. Do you wear Gucci, or Polo or any other main stream manufacturer? All produced with textiles treated in massive chemicals prior to production. Do you wear deodorant or shave? All have carcinogenic chemicals of some sort that can/cannot be directly linked to cancer.

My point is, if it is such a worry (GMOs) then purchase from your local farm stands or butchers that you know an trust to be selling "free" foods. Someone said it here, we've been manipulating foods for 1000s of years. It's not about the foods, its about what YOU consume, how much and how often.

Not disparraging anyone, but standing up against GMOs saying you eat healthy, is like PETA protesting and wearing a full leather belt, shoes and driving a vehicle with leather seating.
My problem with Monsanto isn't the use of GMOs. It's their unscrupulous tactics to monopolize markets. For me it's less about the technology, and more about responsible implementation.

There's a lot more to eating healthy than just personal willpower.

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      10-18-2013, 01:01 PM   #65
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I have not seen anything about this. Where did you get the data?
http://thehill.com/blogs/regwatch/le...rotection-act-
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      10-18-2013, 01:36 PM   #66
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My problem with Monsanto isn't the use of GMOs. It's their unscrupulous tactics to monopolize markets. For me it's less about the technology, and more about responsible implementation.

There's a lot more to eating healthy than just personal willpower.
Monopolize markets? Really? So do you bank with Citi, Wells, or Chase? Do you drive a BMW, Porsche or MB? They ALL monopolize the market in one way or another. Just because a company has the money to re-invest in research and development and others do not, does not mean they are monopolizing anything.

That's like saying I make too much money doing what i do, so I should give disadvantaged people / companies money to help them rise to my level. Really?
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