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      10-12-2013, 07:14 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedaddictM3 View Post
what other factors? were the cars abused? the fact remains however that there are dozens of teardowns of S65 and S85 engines both on this and the M5 forums, and they all without a single exception show the bearings in terrible shape and with excessive wear. Are we to believe that each and every single one of those cars were abused?
I am not privy to what's happened with these engines. May be at some point in time, it might have encountered "cold" abuse. Some of the claims have been dismissed based on what was discovered through the ECU. They have seen some rev limiters raised, but I don't know whether these car had suffered bearing wear.

So please don't assume it is all down to bearing design. If there were no other contributing factors, BMW may honour and replace bearings under warranty or goodwill. Even if they get a slight sniff of skulduggery, then brace yourself for a hefty bill.

I am just letting you know what has been told to me. Yes, I have BPM stage I tune and looking forward to TMS Test pipes and BPM Stage II in the near future. But top speed and rpm will all remain stock, and I religiously warm up my car, even to the extent, I wait for the instrument cluster to show the oil level before increasing the rpm over 4k.

Just because it's a motorsport car and every component is made stronger than a series car doesn't mean it should be abused from the time you turn the key. There is a reason why the warm up sequence is built into instrument cluster. You can't plead ignorance.

So for us outside NA, it is 10w-60, and no hiding behind bearing issues. I am sorry and that the fact of life.

This is nothing against people like Kawasaki, regular guy (PG) and others who have gone to extreme lengths to point out the obvious issue - bearing and clear issues. Yes we do agree, but the point is, when BMW through it's official channel states there is nothing wrong, there is nothing one can do. This is the case at least outside NA.
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      10-12-2013, 11:11 PM   #24
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I think there are more M3s in North America than anywhere else in the world.


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And your point?
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      10-12-2013, 11:40 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
And your point?
BMW-NA made an oil spec change and also has more cars than any other country. Might weigh heavier than countries with fewer cars/problems or different fuel specs, different oil change intervals, etc... Just because Australia or Belgium has not made a change should not offset the fact that NA has, or vice versa. Maybe more cars (in NA) = more problems = more proactive changes by bmw than other countries.
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      10-12-2013, 11:47 PM   #26
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What can i say more ?
Look what they say in Australia (aussiem3 see above) and in the UK,and here in Belgium.......?!?!
And what i personal think about the bearing problems is that we need to follow strictly the warm up procedure with our S65 engine and that with any kind of oil !
I have seen people on this forum with 120,000 miles on it and more and that with the Castrol TWS 10W60 !
I explained this in my main article...or at least I thought I did. Not all cars will explode even though all cars do have too tight bearing clearance.

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We are talking a lot about this problem and guess ,but the real solution....is there one ?
Yes there is a real solution: resize your crank journals, or use bearings with more clearance. At this time, there are no such bearings, so the only real solution is to resize your crank journals. Changing oil to 0W30 won't solve the clearance issue, but it will help mitigate it and help make your bearings last longer.


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Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
I am not privy to what's happened with these engines. May be at some point in time, it might have encountered "cold" abuse. Some of the claims have been dismissed based on what was discovered through the ECU. They have seen some rev limiters raised, but I don't know whether these car had suffered bearing wear.
Keep in mind that when a catastrophic failure occurs, BMW just like almost any insurance company, will try very hard not to pay the claim. Insurance companies would go out of business if they indemnified every claim made against them. That's why they look for ways to refuse payment. Big warranty claims are no different. BMW is actually looking for reasons to avoid paying the claim. So if they find anything anomalous in the ECU, they will refuse to cover the claim. We've all read about this many times on the forums from guys whose warranty claims were refused even though they swear they never did what BMW claimed.

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So please don't assume it is all down to bearing design. If there were no other contributing factors, BMW may honour and replace bearings under warranty or goodwill. Even if they get a slight sniff of skulduggery, then brace yourself for a hefty bill.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the bearing design. At least, nothing that I've seen thus far. Kawasaki did some analysis on the bearing designs, but his results aren't posted yet. I've always believed Clevite bearings were some of the best in the world. So let's see what Kawasaki posts in his analysis of the bearings.

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I am just letting you know what has been told to me. Yes, I have BPM stage I tune and looking forward to TMS Test pipes and BPM Stage II in the near future. But top speed and rpm will all remain stock, and I religiously warm up my car, even to the extent, I wait for the instrument cluster to show the oil level before increasing the rpm over 4k.
Keep in mind, you are getting information from a dealer service adviser, not a guy with mechanical engineering degree. When you ask him a question about this topic, he really doesn't know the answer. Trust me...the SA doesn't have the answers for you, so trusting him to answer these questions is trusting the wrong person.

Quote:
Just because it's a motorsport car and every component is made stronger than a series car doesn't mean it should be abused from the time you turn the key. There is a reason why the warm up sequence is built into instrument cluster. You can't plead ignorance.

So for us outside NA, it is 10w-60, and no hiding behind bearing issues. I am sorry and that the fact of life.

This is nothing against people like Kawasaki, regular guy (PG) and others who have gone to extreme lengths to point out the obvious issue - bearing and clear issues. Yes we do agree, but the point is, when BMW through it's official channel states there is nothing wrong, there is nothing one can do. This is the case at least outside NA.
BMW has NOT stated nothing is wrong, and they never will until they are forced by class action lawsuit to issue a recall. If they admitted something were wrong, then they would have to also issue a recall or else they would get a class action lawsuit. So lack of admission by BMW is not proof that a problem doesn't exist. But announcing an oil change to 0W30 is almost the same thing as admitting you have a bearing clearance problem...but without saying it directly.

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      10-13-2013, 05:48 AM   #27
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Keep in mind, you are getting information from a dealer service adviser, not a guy with mechanical engineering degree. When you ask him a question about this topic, he really doesn't know the answer. Trust me...the SA doesn't have the answers for you, so trusting him to answer these questions is trusting the wrong person.
I got the information from BMW Australia directly. I have some contacts within. I have accidentally posted some things the SA has said, but I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. I think you and I know more about the cars than an SA. I normally get advice from technical lead at the dealer or my contacts at BMW Australia.

I do agree with you 100 per cent about BMW trying to walk out of honour the claim and blaming it on other things. But the thing is, we are exposing ourselves to such decision because of some of our actions. We have every right to see what BMW are claiming before accepting it.

Hence the reason I go through the prescribed warm up process. If BMW does knock back my claim based on my tune, then I have to accept it. Whether the tune caused the respective issue or not is a different question.
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      10-14-2013, 02:57 PM   #28
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fuck it, just put Castrol 10-60 in there...
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      10-14-2013, 03:09 PM   #29
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fuck it, just put Castrol 10-60 in there...
Best thing to do my friend...
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      10-14-2013, 10:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
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fuck it, just put Castrol 10-60 in there...
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Best thing to do my friend...
Here's my prediction for the future. Many people will remain unconvinced in spite of pretty solid evidence. In spite of being fully informed, a small percentage of these people will suffer engine failures or will tear down their engines to find their bearings totally destroyed. They will always look to an alternate explanation instead of the obvious -- just as we see now with the discussion about cold start abuse, etc.

It's just the way it is. We tried.
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      10-14-2013, 11:04 PM   #31
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Agreed. I'm still thinking that there may be another option to help with the bearing wear and that a treatment of Liqui Moly Ceratec could only help. Only time would tell if it made any real difference though but I don't see how it could hurt. My decision is to use German Castrol 0w-30 during the winter months here in CO and 10w-60 during the summer and add Ceratec every 3 oil changes.
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      10-15-2013, 01:30 PM   #32
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This post is sensational, If you look at the numbers of bearing failures vs total production runs. the number is not even statistical signifcant to make an assertion like this.

The fact is most people on forums do max their cars, pushing into its limits. And they are also the same folks likely to post about these bearing issues.
You claim my post is sensational yet your logic is highly flawed. One thing that you have to keep in mind is that people who own M3 do not drive them too much. So even though the E9x is out of production the fact is that very very few M3 are actually high mileage. right now some of the 08 and 09 models are beginning to rack up the miles on the odometer. So even though the failure rate has been low, you can't extrapolate and make claims about long term reliability of the S65 engine right now. Time will tell over the next few years, as more M3 get up there in mileage, whether the S65 will remain durable or whether failed bearings will destroy one engine after the other.

Also, you claim that people on the forum drive their cars harder and have a higher failure rate than other owners. But you have no proof of that. How do you know that the tens of thousands of owners who are not on this forum are not also experiencing engine failures that are quitely being fixed under warranty? Do you have access to BMW's statistics?
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      10-15-2013, 01:58 PM   #33
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We are already 7 years into the car's production, not sure how much more time you want to go by. And there are plenty of high mileage cars out there already. Again a statistically insignificant amount of bearing failures.

Of course people on the forums driver harder and in a more abusive manner..that's just common sense..take a look around..all you got is track junkies yelling "hold my beer and watch my bearings fall out"..c'mon now, huh.
We may be 7 years into the car's production but how many cars out there have more than 100000 km on the odometer? I did a canada-wide search on autotrader and found only 3 cars out of over 140 for sale that had more than 100000 km on the odometer. You can't dismiss the question mark about the long term reliability of the S65 with regards to the bearing issue.

And you still haven't provided evidence that forum members are harder on their cars than other owners. Do you think everyone else who owns an M3 and is not on this forum drives like a grandma? I can make a counterclaim that non-members are less likely to be car enthusiasts so they are less likely to follow proper maintenance, break in, and warm up procedures. In fact I recently met a supercharged E92 M3 owner who was not a member of this forum. Nor have you provided any evidence that driving the car hard is worse on the engine than babying it. There are people who do not track or drive aggressively yet still had engine failures due to excessive bearing wear. The only evidence we have is that bearing clearances are much tighter than what is considered the norm in the industry, and that the TWS oil is a lot thicker, especially when cold, than what other similar engines require in their oil. So far no one has provided an alternate hypothesis to explain the excessive bearing wear on our engines. And BMW's change in recommended oil specs recently seems to further vindicate the hypothesis about bearing clearance being a problem. So far, those who doubt that the S65 has a bearing problem have offered nothing more than speculation, unsubstantiated personal opinions, and mere denials.
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      10-16-2013, 01:13 AM   #34
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It's an interesting discussion. To play devil's advocate (and nothing else), one could argue that forum members take better care of their cars because they are better informed about their maintenance, etc.

As proof of that, one local dealer in my area had three blown M3's in the shop at the same time three weeks ago. Very likely if these had been forum members, you would have heard about all of them. So did they all abuse their cars because they are less informed, or is there really a problem that is only now beginning to be discussed?

Again, devil's advocate...and nothing more.
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      10-16-2013, 07:11 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
It's an interesting discussion. To play devil's advocate (and nothing else), one could argue that forum members take better care of their cars because they are better informed about their maintenance, etc.

As proof of that, one local dealer in my area had three blown M3's in the shop at the same time three weeks ago. Very likely if these had been forum members, you would have heard about all of them. So did they all abuse their cars because they are less informed, or is there really a problem that is only now beginning to be discussed?

Again, devil's advocate...and nothing more.
Wow 3 blown M3's?? All bearing related? Just curious, even if out of warranty would BMW help out on something like that?
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      10-16-2013, 09:20 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
I am not privy to what's happened with these engines. May be at some point in time, it might have encountered "cold" abuse. Some of the claims have been dismissed based on what was discovered through the ECU. They have seen some rev limiters raised, but I don't know whether these car had suffered bearing wear.

So please don't assume it is all down to bearing design. If there were no other contributing factors, BMW may honour and replace bearings under warranty or goodwill. Even if they get a slight sniff of skulduggery, then brace yourself for a hefty bill.

I am just letting you know what has been told to me. Yes, I have BPM stage I tune and looking forward to TMS Test pipes and BPM Stage II in the near future. But top speed and rpm will all remain stock, and I religiously warm up my car, even to the extent, I wait for the instrument cluster to show the oil level before increasing the rpm over 4k.

Just because it's a motorsport car and every component is made stronger than a series car doesn't mean it should be abused from the time you turn the key. There is a reason why the warm up sequence is built into instrument cluster. You can't plead ignorance.

So for us outside NA, it is 10w-60, and no hiding behind bearing issues. I am sorry and that the fact of life.

This is nothing against people like Kawasaki, regular guy (PG) and others who have gone to extreme lengths to point out the obvious issue - bearing and clear issues. Yes we do agree, but the point is, when BMW through it's official channel states there is nothing wrong, there is nothing one can do. This is the case at least outside NA.
I agree. Hopefully, this helps some of you on the fence about using unrecommended thinner oil. If you are under warranty especially, stick with 10W-60. You will probably go through hell if the official story from BMW is to use 10w-60 and you run into any bearing issues. I know its not scientific but using some of my old mans wits about proper engine break-in and warming up is key. I dont mean sitting the car warming up, but driving her to warm it up. You should not rev the car while its cold (even if OEM stops you at 6K, its probably best to not pass 4K) and when it reaches operating temps, gradually building RPMs to smooth it out would be the way to go. After that you can drive it hard. Dont drive like grandmama, i am firm believer this is detrimental to any engine, especially with such a thick oil. Dont abuse it but let the RPMs rise as it was designed, but only at operating temps!
I used to drive mine slow and i stopped doing that. Its not scientific stuff but the car is noticably running more even and smooth at mid RPM range since I adopted this style of warming her up. Something is working...
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      10-16-2013, 09:42 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
It's an interesting discussion. To play devil's advocate (and nothing else), one could argue that forum members take better care of their cars because they are better informed about their maintenance, etc.

As proof of that, one local dealer in my area had three blown M3's in the shop at the same time three weeks ago. Very likely if these had been forum members, you would have heard about all of them. So did they all abuse their cars because they are less informed, or is there really a problem that is only now beginning to be discussed?

Again, devil's advocate...and nothing more.
Absolutely. There's a reason why enthusiast (not track rats) cars are worth more. Hell did you guys not see the thread about people freaking out when strangers touch their cars?
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      10-16-2013, 05:19 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
It's an interesting discussion. To play devil's advocate (and nothing else), one could argue that forum members take better care of their cars because they are better informed about their maintenance, etc.

As proof of that, one local dealer in my area had three blown M3's in the shop at the same time three weeks ago. Very likely if these had been forum members, you would have heard about all of them. So did they all abuse their cars because they are less informed, or is there really a problem that is only now beginning to be discussed?

Again, devil's advocate...and nothing more.
Just because one drives the ///3 like a grandma during the warm up process doesn't make one a less of a driver. It's your hard earned money and you have every responsibility to look after it. Next to a house the biggest investment one makes is buying a car, especially an /// car.

I think it's the boy-racer attitude from the time you turn the key that's detrimental to this particular engine. There is a reason why a warm up procedure is described.

Not everyone is an enthusiast like you and me. We listen to what people have to say, read manuals, share knowledge and information, and take care of our cars. We love our cars and passionate about them.

But for most, it is a car, that's there to be driven. Get them from A to B. They don't care about warm up process.

I am not saying every single bearing failure is attributed to this. The other day I was at the dealer, and someone got in an ///3 and blasted away. I didn't know how long the car had been parked, and I assumed it was the dealer tech doing it, and I pointed it out to the service manager, and telling him about the bearing issue. He told me it was the owner who was picking up the car after a service. There you go. When you have show-offs like that, it's easy to see the problems. Probably he doesn't know anything better.

Yes, people follow the break-in process but after that all is forgotten.

Whilst there is merit to the argument for a thinner oil given the tight clearance, I am sure it's just not down to that.

I've seen a couple of cars with over 100k km or close on this forum, and they had zero lead in the oil BL oil analysis. If it's true that higher mileage cars will see increase bearing issues, then there is something wrong with these cars.

I am sure these cars are loved and well looked after by the respective owners hence a healthy oil report.

I have seen people drive past me and look at me to say that I am an idiot when I first get on the roads in the morning. I don't care. It's my car and I will drive the way I want.
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      10-16-2013, 05:27 PM   #39
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      10-16-2013, 05:30 PM   #40
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Absolutely. There's a reason why enthusiast (not track rats) cars are worth more. Hell did you guys not see the thread about people freaking out when strangers touch their cars?
+1 -- Most of us forum members are OCD-Crazy when it comes to our rides. I can guarantee you that when I sell my 2013 in a couple of years, it will be one of the best (if not THE best)-maintained M3s available for sale in Florida (no offense to any of my other Florida M3Post brethren, I'm sure we're all similar).
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      10-17-2013, 10:25 AM   #41
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I agree. Hopefully, this helps some of you on the fence about using unrecommended thinner oil. If you are under warranty especially, stick with 10W-60. You will probably go through hell if the official story from BMW is to use 10w-60 and you run into any bearing issues. I know its not scientific but using some of my old mans wits about proper engine break-in and warming up is key. I dont mean sitting the car warming up, but driving her to warm it up. You should not rev the car while its cold (even if OEM stops you at 6K, its probably best to not pass 4K) and when it reaches operating temps, gradually building RPMs to smooth it out would be the way to go. After that you can drive it hard. Dont drive like grandmama, i am firm believer this is detrimental to any engine, especially with such a thick oil. Dont abuse it but let the RPMs rise as it was designed, but only at operating temps!
I used to drive mine slow and i stopped doing that. Its not scientific stuff but the car is noticably running more even and smooth at mid RPM range since I adopted this style of warming her up. Something is working...
Are you guys on the same information highway as the rest of us?
Any oil that has LL01 is approved for use in the s65, the faster that is grasped the less of these posts we will encounter.
BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines
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      10-17-2013, 11:31 AM   #42
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Are you guys on the same information highway as the rest of us?
Any oil that has LL01 is approved for use in the s65, the faster that is grasped the less of these posts we will encounter.
BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines
I disagree. The bulleting only makes two LL01 oils approved for the S65 engine. I believe the bulletin should be read as follows -

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles
equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines:

1) Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil, BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420
or
2) Castrol Edge Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195

The first part tells you that only LL-01 oils may be used in the S65 engine, and the second part tells you that out of all the LL-01 oils, only the two enumerated oils are approved.
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      10-17-2013, 12:06 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantarM3 View Post
I disagree. The bulleting only makes two LL01 oils approved for the S65 engine. I believe the bulletin should be read as follows -

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles
equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines:

1) Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil, BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420
or
2) Castrol Edge Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195

The first part tells you that only LL-01 oils may be used in the S65 engine, and the second part tells you that out of all the LL-01 oils, only the two enumerated oils are approved.
I agree and mentioned this earlier as well. I definitely think it reads like this. LL-01 approved oils only and of those one of the two below. It also doesn't mention which engines take 5w30 or 10w60.
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      10-17-2013, 12:13 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantarM3 View Post
I disagree. The bulleting only makes two LL01 oils approved for the S65 engine. I believe the bulletin should be read as follows -

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles
equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines:

1) Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil, BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420
or
2) Castrol Edge Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195

The first part tells you that only LL-01 oils may be used in the S65 engine, and the second part tells you that out of all the LL-01 oils, only the two enumerated oils are approved.
this is how i read it as well, although the grammar leaves too much room for interpretation when you dont use the colon and bold points for everything.
It could also be read as you could only use LL-01 oils approved for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines. At this time are ALL LL-01 synthetic oils approved for those engines?
Another point is if its ok to use Castrol 0E 5W-30...isnt that for the diesel engines?? So confusing but if you are under warranty, i would stick with 10w-60 for sure.
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