BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
GetBMWParts
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-11-2013, 06:39 PM   #133
pkimM3r
Banned
pkimM3r's Avatar
96
Rep
7,321
Posts

 
Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Cool find, but that's not the oil you want for our cars.




When did this happen?
Is there a link on the BMW site about this?

Thanks.
.
there was a thread in the news section and on m3post about switching to 10k miles......sadly its only for the newer turbo engines.
Appreciate 0
      10-11-2013, 07:30 PM   #134
///M Power-Belgium
Brigadier General
///M Power-Belgium's Avatar
Belgium
71
Rep
3,959
Posts

 
Drives: ///M3-DCT- E92 Silverstone II
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

I would say...check this out >>>http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=898076
__________________
BPM DEV-Tune & DCT software update & Servotronic & coding///Alpine HID Angeleyes///Oem.exhaust mod.
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2013, 12:43 AM   #135
sensi09
Lieutenant Colonel
18
Rep
1,767
Posts

 
Drives: .
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: socal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
When did this happen?
Is there a link on the BMW site about this?

Thanks.
.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=867220
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2013, 12:49 AM   #136
sensi09
Lieutenant Colonel
18
Rep
1,767
Posts

 
Drives: .
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: socal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
It stayed at 5W30 for many years up until ~2008-9 when people starting complaining loudly to BMW about rod bearing wear issues with high mileage motors.
What was the thinking behind 10w60 being better for bearing wear?
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2013, 12:56 AM   #137
sensi09
Lieutenant Colonel
18
Rep
1,767
Posts

 
Drives: .
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: socal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by flipmeraz View Post
How about this one???? Pennzoil Ultra
Very good oil, but no longer readily available in the US I believe. Also thought to be or is the same as Shell helix.

After you pick an oil weight, as long as a major brand is used, I don't think it matters much. Castrol makes a great product, but just how shell sponsors ferrari and gets their recommendation, castrol sponsors BMW and thus garners that recommendation.
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2013, 01:20 AM   #138
flipmeraz
First Lieutenant
flipmeraz's Avatar
8
Rep
319
Posts

 
Drives: 10 e92 m3
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: bay area

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09 View Post
Very good oil, but no longer readily available in the US I believe. Also thought to be or is the same as Shell helix.

After you pick an oil weight, as long as a major brand is used, I don't think it matters much. Castrol makes a great product, but just how shell sponsors ferrari and gets their recommendation, castrol sponsors BMW and thus garners that recommendation.
Thanks. I can get this at work for free so I might give it a shot.
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2013, 07:42 AM   #139
CSBM5
Captain
9
Rep
633
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M3, 2001 M5, etc
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09 View Post
What was the thinking behind 10w60 being better for bearing wear?
The S62 doesn't have the tight bearing clearance issues of the other M motors discussed herein; hence a higher viscosity oil results in a thicker film in a hydrodynamic bearing like a rod bearing. This works fine unless you get into a situation discussed here where clearances are too tight.
__________________
Current Stable:
2011.5 M3 sedan 6MT, Silverstone, no sunroof, no EDC, but most other options
2001 M5 LeMans Blue/Silverstone
2006 330i 6MT Red/black, ZSP, Nav, etc.
2001 Audi S4 6MT; 1996 Volvo 850R wagon
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 12:59 PM   #140
PandaM3
First Lieutenant
3
Rep
365
Posts

 
Drives:
Join Date: Apr 2008

iTrader: (1)

Been looking at what the interwebz (bob is the oil guy/ rennlist/ etc)has to say about the different oil options vs the OE Castrol TWS 10w60

What I found about TWS 10w60 is
- has a high ester content... probably leads to its high film strength which will keep metal parts like the rod bearings from touching each outer
- after 1000 to several thousand miles it shears down to a 40 or 50 weight... so frequent 5,000 mile oil change intervals with this oil may actually do more harm than good
- a 60 weight oil is good for things like long oil change intervals or endurance races because throughout the course of the race/ miles fuel dilution will cause it to shear down to a 40 or 50 weight
- it has very good cold flow properties as well (just as good as the lighter weights such as 0w40 and 5w40) which is probably important to keep the rod bearings from wearing with cold starts

So TWS 10w60 may be a good all around oil as long as
1) you follow a very conservative cold start procedure meaning no revs over 3000 rpm, no lugging the motor in a higher gear, drive like a grandma not just until the rpm gauge moves itself to the proper redline... but until the oil timer light comes on for the oil level (remember the oil level timer does not come on until it is at proper temperature)... this takes me about 10 to 15 minutes of my morning commute for this to happen
2) once the oil is up to temp... drive it reasonable enthusiastically/ track day... so the oil shears down to a 40 or 50 wt on its own
3) extend the oil change intervals from 5,000 miles to 7500 to 10,000 miles

I wonder how these qualities compare to Motul 300V 5w40 if I am going to do 5,000 miles intervals... I know film strength is just as strong, heat and fuel dilution isn't gonna shear the 40 wt down... just curious about the cold flow properties in the Motul

Again... I am no expert... this is just from googling the different forums on the interwebz... just trying to gather more info to make a decision on the next oil going in
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 01:46 PM   #141
Billj747
Lieutenant
Billj747's Avatar
United_States
6
Rep
437
Posts

 
Drives: Everything
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Wellington, FL

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to Billj747
Quote:
Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
Been looking at what the interwebz (bob is the oil guy/ rennlist/ etc)has to say about the different oil options vs the OE Castrol TWS 10w60

What I found about TWS 10w60 is
- has a high ester content... probably leads to its high film strength which will keep metal parts like the rod bearings from touching each outer
- after 1000 to several thousand miles it shears down to a 40 or 50 weight... so frequent 5,000 mile oil change intervals with this oil may actually do more harm than good
- a 60 weight oil is good for things like long oil change intervals or endurance races because throughout the course of the race/ miles fuel dilution will cause it to shear down to a 40 or 50 weight
- it has very good cold flow properties as well (just as good as the lighter weights such as 0w40 and 5w40) which is probably important to keep the rod bearings from wearing with cold starts

So TWS 10w60 may be a good all around oil as long as
1) you follow a very conservative cold start procedure meaning no revs over 3000 rpm, no lugging the motor in a higher gear, drive like a grandma not just until the rpm gauge moves itself to the proper redline... but until the oil timer light comes on for the oil level (remember the oil level timer does not come on until it is at proper temperature)... this takes me about 10 to 15 minutes of my morning commute for this to happen
2) once the oil is up to temp... drive it reasonable enthusiastically/ track day... so the oil shears down to a 40 or 50 wt on its own
3) extend the oil change intervals from 5,000 miles to 7500 to 10,000 miles

I wonder how these qualities compare to Motul 300V 5w40 if I am going to do 5,000 miles intervals... I know film strength is just as strong, heat and fuel dilution isn't gonna shear the 40 wt down... just curious about the cold flow properties in the Motul

Again... I am no expert... this is just from googling the different forums on the interwebz... just trying to gather more info to make a decision on the next oil going in
TWS does not have good cold flow characteristics. M1 0W40 has ~half the cold viscosity of TWS.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 03:02 PM   #142
PandaM3
First Lieutenant
3
Rep
365
Posts

 
Drives:
Join Date: Apr 2008

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billj747 View Post
TWS does not have good cold flow characteristics. M1 0W40 has ~half the cold viscosity of TWS.
I got that statement from one of the oil forums... but looking at the spec sheet... I agree... cold flow is pretty bad with TWS10w60

Anyone have any idea on what spec sheet values correspond with film strength? I think that is an important value to keep the bearing metal from touching too...
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 04:57 PM   #143
aussiem3
Lieutenant Colonel
aussiem3's Avatar
Australia
30
Rep
1,695
Posts

 
Drives: Goggomobil
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kangaroo land

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2014 BMW X5 30d  [0.00]
2007 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
I got that statement from one of the oil forums... but looking at the spec sheet... I agree... cold flow is pretty bad with TWS10w60

Anyone have any idea on what spec sheet values correspond with film strength? I think that is an important value to keep the bearing metal from touching too...


Kawasaki had already posted the requested comparison in a different thread when we first discussed bearing issues.
__________________

2007 E92 6MT - Silverstone II with /// Performance Exhaust with ACM Test Pipes and BPM Sport Stage II Dev-Tune - Proper engine warm up, 12-monthly oil change, Castrol TWS 10w-60
2014 F15 X5 3.0d
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 07:04 PM   #144
sensi09
Lieutenant Colonel
18
Rep
1,767
Posts

 
Drives: .
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: socal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
I got that statement from one of the oil forums... but looking at the spec sheet... I agree... cold flow is pretty bad with TWS10w60

Anyone have any idea on what spec sheet values correspond with film strength? I think that is an important value to keep the bearing metal from touching too...
I believe in general the higher the viscosity, the greater the film strength. You can look at the viscosity of the oil, the kinematic viscosities as well as the HTHS.

I look at a high HTHS as the ability to protect at high temps, but it's also "an indicator of an engine oil's resistance to flow in the narrow confines between fast moving parts in fully warmed up engines." http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto..._explained.htm

Interesting balance between the tight bearing clearances and protection at high temps.
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 09:15 PM   #145
PandaM3
First Lieutenant
3
Rep
365
Posts

 
Drives:
Join Date: Apr 2008

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09
Quote:
Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
I got that statement from one of the oil forums... but looking at the spec sheet... I agree... cold flow is pretty bad with TWS10w60

Anyone have any idea on what spec sheet values correspond with film strength? I think that is an important value to keep the bearing metal from touching too...
I believe in general the higher the viscosity, the greater the film strength. You can look at the viscosity of the oil, the kinematic viscosities as well as the HTHS.

I look at a high HTHS as the ability to protect at high temps, but it's also "an indicator of an engine oil's resistance to flow in the narrow confines between fast moving parts in fully warmed up engines." http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto..._explained.htm

Interesting balance between the tight bearing clearances and protection at high temps.
Castrol 10w60 has an hths of 5.2, but a viscosity kinematic at 40 degrees (cold start) of 160

Motul 300V 5w40 has hths of 4.1 and 10w40 is 4.2 with viscosity kinematic of 81 and 90 respectively

Mobil 1 0w40 has hths of 3.8 and viscosity kinematic of 75

So the castrol would seem to be best at protecting bearings if you can drive it like a grandma when cold until the temp timer on the oil level pops up which takes 10 to 15 min for me on cold socal mornings

Otoh motul 300v could be a good compromise so long as you can get it close to the same price as the castrol for 9 liters and it has much better cold start flow as well as a higher flash point
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 07:28 AM   #146
gatorfast
Colonel
gatorfast's Avatar
33
Rep
2,672
Posts

 
Drives: MR E90 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SoFla

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post


Kawasaki had already posted the requested comparison in a different thread when we first discussed bearing issues.
It would be great if we could get a summary thread, preferably a sticky, covering oil and bearing information. There have been so many separate long threads on this spread out over the last few months that it is difficult to search and find that you are looking for.
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 02:14 PM   #147
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
It would be great if we could get a summary thread, preferably a sticky, covering oil and bearing information. There have been so many separate long threads on this spread out over the last few months that it is difficult to search and find that you are looking for.
There are certainly some good facts abound on both the oil and bearing issue and the seem very likely to be related. However, you know what they say about opinions and a$$holes right... Opinion are obviously also abound on these topics.
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 03:47 PM   #148
aus
Major General
118
Rep
7,421
Posts

 
Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
There are certainly some good facts abound on both the oil and bearing issue and the seem very likely to be related. However, you know what they say about opinions and a$$holes right... Opinion are obviously also abound on these topics.
What would you expecet from an oil thread???
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 05:17 PM   #149
Rev ///Me
My V8 Brings All the Boys to the Yard.
United_States
52
Rep
1,182
Posts

 
Drives: Something
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Somewhere

iTrader: (1)

Hmm. So for DD duties and the usual ripping it to redline and back road attacks , 5W-30 is better?
__________________
2013 BMW M3 - Sold and Missed
2008 BMW 328xi - Sold
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 05:35 PM   #150
aussiem3
Lieutenant Colonel
aussiem3's Avatar
Australia
30
Rep
1,695
Posts

 
Drives: Goggomobil
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kangaroo land

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2014 BMW X5 30d  [0.00]
2007 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09 View Post
http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto..._explained.htm

Interesting balance between the tight bearing clearances and protection at high temps.
Very good article and now it makes more sense. It will be self destructive for me to use anything other than TWS 10w-60 in Western Australia where the summer temperature is very high. It is also the case in most parts of Australia.

Anyone thinking of changing the oil grade in Australia, after reading the above article should think twice, and a decision to go for a thinner oil, will have subsequent consequence.

Thanks for sharing this excellent website which is a real eye-opener.
__________________

2007 E92 6MT - Silverstone II with /// Performance Exhaust with ACM Test Pipes and BPM Sport Stage II Dev-Tune - Proper engine warm up, 12-monthly oil change, Castrol TWS 10w-60
2014 F15 X5 3.0d
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 07:14 PM   #151
Malek@MRF
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Malek@MRF's Avatar
United_States
62
Rep
3,406
Posts


 
Drives: E92 M3, E46 M3, F30, E30
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Irvine, California

iTrader: (5)

Send a message via AIM to Malek@MRF
**CROSS POSTING FROM THE BEARING WIKI THREAD**

For those wondering on the usage of 0W-40 Mobil1 oil:

This past weekend the M3 went to WSIR Big Willow and ran multiple 30 minute sessions with no stops during the sessions lapping 1:33.xx to 1:35.xx all day. Weather was approximately 76*F.

The Oil Pressure did not vary from stock much at all, at least not an appreciable difference to be of concern, the values were still within BMW specifications of where the oil pressure should be operating.

Oil Temperatures. The temperature of the oil never exceeded 225*F (slightly past the half way point on the cluster gauge) surprisingly. Another fact to note, in a slightly cooler climate at the same track with TWS 10W-60, the car run much hotter oil temps (slightly past the 3rd marking for those who want a reference point). During cool down laps, oil temperature also lowered noticeably faster than they did with the 10W-60.

This M3 will remain on 0W-40 Mobil1 during a hotter event, and will report back once again, however I expect it to be equally impressive in less ideal ambient conditions as well.

-Malek
__________________

BMW PERFORMANCE SPECIALISTS. Suspension. Forced Induction. Brakes. Race Preparation. Service. Alignments.
OFFICIAL PARTNERS: Íhlins. KW Suspension. Brembo. AP Racing. ESS Tuning. iND Distribution. Turner Motorsport.
Facebook | Instagram | Yelp! | Flikr | Contact | YouTube
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 08:08 PM   #152
atombomb33
Private
atombomb33's Avatar
United_States
0
Rep
51
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 E92 Alpine White
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

So, for those of us still under the free maintenance period (I just bought my 2013 in August 2013), is the consensus to buy and bring Mobil 1 0W-40 (or any oil of your choice) to the dealership?

It seems the dealers will still put the 10W-60 TWS oil into the car for the free scheduled maintenance. Or does anyone have confirmation that dealers will put in the 5W-30 Castrol oil? Or will they install the Mobil 1 0W-40 for free (and you're only out of pocket the cost of two 5 quart jugs from Walmart ~$50)???

I'm leaning towards the Mobil 1 for my next change (already had my 1,200 mile service done at the dealer with 10W-60 TWS). I can easily do the oil change myself (have done changes myself on all my other cars), but I don't want to "give up" the free maintenance since it was essentially included in the price of the car. But, I do want to make sure the bearings are protected the best they can be and anything but the 10W-60 TWS seems to be the best option.
__________________
2013 ///M3 Coupe | Alpine White | Fox Red/Black/Black | Carbon Leather | Competition Pkg | Premium Pkg | Cold Weather Pkg | Enhanced Premium Sound | BMW Apps | Sirius | Auto High Beams

Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 08:18 PM   #153
kawasaki00
Major
kawasaki00's Avatar
18
Rep
1,235
Posts

 
Drives: E92
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Charlotte NC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek@MRF View Post
**CROSS POSTING FROM THE BEARING WIKI THREAD**

For those wondering on the usage of 0W-40 Mobil1 oil:

This past weekend the M3 went to WSIR Big Willow and ran multiple 30 minute sessions with no stops during the sessions lapping 1:33.xx to 1:35.xx all day. Weather was approximately 76*F.

The Oil Pressure did not vary from stock much at all, at least not an appreciable difference to be of concern, the values were still within BMW specifications of where the oil pressure should be operating.

Oil Temperatures. The temperature of the oil never exceeded 225*F (slightly past the half way point on the cluster gauge) surprisingly. Another fact to note, in a slightly cooler climate at the same track with TWS 10W-60, the car run much hotter oil temps (slightly past the 3rd marking for those who want a reference point). During cool down laps, oil temperature also lowered noticeably faster than they did with the 10W-60.

This M3 will remain on 0W-40 Mobil1 during a hotter event, and will report back once again, however I expect it to be equally impressive in less ideal ambient conditions as well.

-Malek
Exactly as it should do, the thinner oil will shed the heat out much faster than the tws. Some will never be convinced though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atombomb33 View Post
So, for those of us still under the free maintenance period (I just bought my 2013 in August 2013), is the consensus to buy and bring Mobil 1 0W-40 (or any oil of your choice) to the dealership?

It seems the dealers will still put the 10W-60 TWS oil into the car for the free scheduled maintenance. Or does anyone have confirmation that dealers will put in the 5W-30 Castrol oil? Or will they install the Mobil 1 0W-40 for free (and you're only out of pocket the cost of two 5 quart jugs from Walmart ~$50)???

I'm leaning towards the Mobil 1 for my next change (already had my 1,200 mile service done at the dealer with 10W-60 TWS). I can easily do the oil change myself (have done changes myself on all my other cars), but I don't want to "give up" the free maintenance since it was essentially included in the price of the car. But, I do want to make sure the bearings are protected the best they can be and anything but the 10W-60 TWS seems to be the best option.
Knowing what we know now even if they only change the oil with tws I would drive it home open both drains and then fill it with the mobil 1. The filter would be new so no worries there. Because the records will show it was changed and you are using a approved oil you are not doing anything that would void the warranty. If they are going to change it every 10k I would change it myself at 5k.
__________________
Electronics Junkie, Engine Builder.
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 09:12 PM   #154
PandaM3
First Lieutenant
3
Rep
365
Posts

 
Drives:
Join Date: Apr 2008

iTrader: (1)

No doubt Mobil 1 0w40 is a great oil and will likely be using it in my wife's VW CC with an upgrade turbo.

However is the fact that the engine is running cooler really a sign that there is less engine wear?

I would think at high rpm and with the tighter bearing clearances an oil with high tensile strength which loosely corresponds to hths would be beneficial?

Mobil 1 only has an HTHS of 3.8 which probably drops down as the oil's viscosity drops down because of heat whereas TWS 10w60 has an hths of 5.2

Or is hths not an indicator for tensile strength and the oils ability to keep metal parts from touching?
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:23 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST