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      10-12-2007, 09:16 PM   #1
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Question Forced Induction M Cars?

I'm probably on the wrong forum but I value your opinions more, what do you all think about the spy pix of the TTM5? I have heard everything from: its a test mule for a new V10 and Gearbox to a tester for Ceramic Brakes. I honestly think those extra vents are fake, and that "intercooler" is probably what it is but not for a V10, I think its a prototype TTV8 (the one we have been hearing about lately). Dont get me wrong I would love to have a 600+ HP M5 but for heritage sake would you really want a turbo M car? I mean BMW said that M cars would forever be "high revving and NATURALLY ASPERATED" Gimme some opinions here !


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      10-12-2007, 10:37 PM   #2
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I agree with you there is more merit in getting a perfect aspirated engine to perform as the M engines do, turbo and supercharging are for inferior engines to perform better, aspirated requires more of the genious that M is known for.
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      10-13-2007, 12:17 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy View Post
I'm probably on the wrong forum but I value your opinions more, what do you all think about the spy pix of the TTM5? I have heard everything from: its a test mule for a new V10 and Gearbox to a tester for Ceramic Brakes. I honestly think those extra vents are fake, and that "intercooler" is probably what it is but not for a V10, I think its a prototype TTV8 (the one we have been hearing about lately). Dont get me wrong I would love to have a 600+ HP M5 but for heritage sake would you really want a turbo M car? I mean BMW said that M cars would forever be "high revving and NATURALLY ASPERATED" Gimme some opinions here !


Welcome to the future my friend....... More than likely it is a TTV10. Do you really think BMW would go from a V10 in their flagship "M" down to a V8? Even if it was turbo'd?

Yes, their will be TTV8 but that will be introduced on the new 7er due out next year.......

Why is BMW doing this? It's simple- it's the competition baby.......
The new RS6 has almost 600HP and the next-gen E63 due out in 2010 will have at least this much....

Adding TT's is an easy way to get that kind of power without having to increase displacement.......

Will it sell? Well, do you see any problems with dealers moving 335's off of their lots? No, you don't so I doubt you will see it with a TTM5 either...

Hell, at least 600HP justifies the damn things 90k plus price!
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      10-13-2007, 12:24 AM   #4
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No turbo M cars... maybe another performance line or sport line but the director of M has stated several times that M's with be high revving and NA.

The future is exciting for BMW either way
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      10-13-2007, 01:19 AM   #5
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If ///M remains NA, its gonna be increasingly tough for them to compete ... The RS6 is a monster ... if BMW wants sales they gonna have to do sumthing and them playing with twin turbos in the BMW range with the 335i might really mean turbos in their ///M range ...
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      10-13-2007, 01:35 AM   #6
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AMG seems to be doing just fine with their latest NA V8.
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      10-14-2007, 10:21 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keto View Post
AMG seems to be doing just fine with their latest NA V8.
But M probably can't build an 8500RPM 100k mile 6.2L V8. V12, sure. V10, maybe.

I expect to see an M with forced induction in my lifetime, probably before 2020.
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      10-14-2007, 10:35 AM   #8
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There is only one real naturally aspirated step left for the M-Cars... the move to direct injection. That would allow them to make more power with less fuel... after that the only way to continue drastic increases in power without displacements and fuel consumption going even higher than now is to use direct-injection + turbocharging.

Mercedes has chased ever-increasing engine sizes... they will have to back this down in the future in order to save some gas. And yes, it is important even in the segment of performance cars. The only reason I am seriously waffling over buying a new M3 sedan is because of its city mileage.
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      10-14-2007, 10:40 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
But M probably can't build an 8500RPM 100k mile 6.2L V8. V12, sure. V10, maybe.

I expect to see an M with forced induction in my lifetime, probably before 2020.
We'll all be buying Teslas by then.
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      10-14-2007, 11:24 AM   #10
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Quote:
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We'll all be buying Teslas by then.
That's a pretty aggressive prediction, since they can't even get the first one OTD on time (stupid batteries).

I agree there will be lots more cars by then using alternative powertrains by then. I would not bank on M though.

If we say 2050 then I will agree with you.
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      10-14-2007, 11:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
There is only one real naturally aspirated step left for the M-Cars... the move to direct injection. That would allow them to make more power with less fuel... after that the only way to continue drastic increases in power without displacements and fuel consumption going even higher than now is to use direct-injection + turbocharging.
There is also cylinder deactivation, camless valvetrain, variable compression ratio, and variable displacement.

Not to mention hybrid.

Some of that is pie-in-the-sky. Some isn't. I agree they will probably go turbo though. Personally, I think high revving + turbo would be insanely fun.
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      10-14-2007, 11:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
That's a pretty aggressive prediction, since they can't even get the first one OTD on time (stupid batteries).

I agree there will be lots more cars by then using alternative powertrains by then. I would not bank on M though.

If we say 2050 then I will agree with you.
New battery tech announcements pop up on Slashdot every so often. I think we're fairly close. Once it's cheap enough for you to buy an extra battery back to charge while you use one, that's a daily driver for most people. Full replacement would require something that would charge fast enough for long trips, given our lack of high-speed trains, etc. If they standardized a pack (heh, America doesn't believe in standards, it believes in the market) then you could stop at a station and swap out a pack like a propane cylinder. That will happen in Europe fairly quickly, unlike here, where it will take forever (It strikes me as similar to mobile phones). The performance of the motor is already there.

I doubt there will be complete replacement by then, but seriously, have you looked at the Tesla specs? 0-60 in under 4, light car, silent, etc. Put that engine with BMW-quality suspension/LSD/handling etc. and it's a no-brainer enthusiast car. Modders will be amusing themselves buying speakers to attach to the back for the combustion sound, and probably we'll spend our time debating whether chipping the turbine beats a bigger turbine.
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      10-15-2007, 01:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keto View Post
AMG seems to be doing just fine with their latest NA V8.
True!
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      10-15-2007, 01:21 PM   #14
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I think M's should have Turbochargers. Today there is no way to compete with other manufacturers. Audi, porsche etc. they re all using turbochargers...

A TTv8 or a TTv10 will be awesome and just as sportier as a NA BMW M car. Look at the 335i, when I drove it I couldn't belive that it was a turbocharged engine. There is almost no lag ang no burst of power. Its just smooth as the old staight 6 engines that bmw is used to build.
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      10-16-2007, 07:42 PM   #15
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forced induction is necessary to stay competetive. i personally think bmw made a mistake not putting fi on the new m3...instead of setting a new benchmark like the previous generations did, this new m3 just barely edges out competition.
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      10-16-2007, 09:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
There is only one real naturally aspirated step left for the M-Cars... the move to direct injection.
While we all agree DI would be a step in the right direction, there are other technologies in development, like electronic valve actuation, that could reduce weight and increase ecomomy and performance. Cams are pretty rudimentary actuation devices, even with double VANOS.

http://www.jonfry.com/2005/09/valeo-...art-valve.html

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/...02Wcbf56hRCrcd
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