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      09-24-2013, 11:35 AM   #1
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NJMP Lightning - Let me have it! :-)

Started to finally pull my GoPro videos off of my camera from NJMP Lightning back in August.This is the first or second session on the first day. In general I'm not too thrilled about any of these laps. There's a few things I think I am doing ok, but in general it's a very noob line.

In 2-3 I realized on my last session of the last day (which sadly I didn't record) that I should be further off the curbing to make that a gentle arch and then into 5 I should be parallel to the curb rather than driving point to point.

I'm fairly happy with how I took 3 into 4 and then also 7 (the sharp left).

I'm sure there are a million things I'm doing wrong. Maybe a few things I'm doing almost sorta right

Anyway, enough talk. Here it is.

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      09-24-2013, 11:49 AM   #2
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I was in that run group! Didn't spot my car in the video though, bummer.

I've been letting the lines sink in too (August was my first time on Lightning), and I think I have a lot of work to do on turns 1 and 5. I tended to over-brake for 1 and drive point-to-point for the entry at 5 as you mentioned. Should be carrying a lot more speed in both places.

I'm going again in October (with the NJ CCA chapter) and I hope the weather is as cooperative as it was in August. I'm going to be on different rubber this time and will be learning all over again
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      09-24-2013, 12:08 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by bkrM3 View Post
I was in that run group! Didn't spot my car in the video though, bummer.

I've been letting the lines sink in too (August was my first time on Lightning), and I think I have a lot of work to do on turns 1 and 5. I tended to over-brake for 1 and drive point-to-point for the entry at 5 as you mentioned. Should be carrying a lot more speed in both places.

I'm going again in October (with the NJ CCA chapter) and I hope the weather is as cooperative as it was in August. I'm going to be on different rubber this time and will be learning all over again
I rode with a different instructor for my last session (James Murphy) who's one of the racers and a long time driver and he helped me a ton with 2-3-4-5.

With 2 he had me enter off the apex by about 3-5ft and that let it be one arch rather than 2 steering inputs. 3 into 4 there's no straight, so hold your input for 3 until you are ready to turn into 4 and let the suspension toss the car in.

Then what he showed me for 5 was to aim for the bilboard and get parallel to the early curbing rather than drive at it you kind of ease your way to it.

He said the line I had been shown was the red group line so that was fine, but the one he showed me was much better. Same with going thru the lightbulb but I can't recall everything he said there. But 2-3-4-5 felt much better after I took some input from him.

I'll be there in October as well. My name is Doug, come find me. If you want to PM me I'll give you my cell and you can text me when you're there.
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      09-24-2013, 01:02 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
Started to finally pull my GoPro videos off of my camera from NJMP Lightning back in August.This is the first or second session on the first day. In general I'm not too thrilled about any of these laps. There's a few things I think I am doing ok, but in general it's a very noob line.

In 2-3 I realized on my last session of the last day (which sadly I didn't record) that I should be further off the curbing to make that a gentle arch and then into 5 I should be parallel to the curb rather than driving point to point.

I'm fairly happy with how I took 3 into 4 and then also 7 (the sharp left).

I'm sure there are a million things I'm doing wrong. Maybe a few things I'm doing almost sorta right

Anyway, enough talk. Here it is.

Who was your instructor. That is one of the groups I intruct for. I was racing that day, so didn't get to right seat anyone. If you want pointers, PM me.
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      09-24-2013, 01:14 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by 66BM
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Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
Started to finally pull my GoPro videos off of my camera from NJMP Lightning back in August.This is the first or second session on the first day. In general I'm not too thrilled about any of these laps. There's a few things I think I am doing ok, but in general it's a very noob line.

In 2-3 I realized on my last session of the last day (which sadly I didn't record) that I should be further off the curbing to make that a gentle arch and then into 5 I should be parallel to the curb rather than driving point to point.

I'm fairly happy with how I took 3 into 4 and then also 7 (the sharp left).

I'm sure there are a million things I'm doing wrong. Maybe a few things I'm doing almost sorta right

Anyway, enough talk. Here it is.

Who was your instructor. That is one of the groups I intruct for. I was racing that day, so didn't get to right seat anyone. If you want pointers, PM me.
Gene Schaffer was my instructor. I was also crewing for one of the racers (taylor Handwerk) and typically hang out with Jerry and Dave Kaufman.

PM coming your way.
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      09-24-2013, 02:20 PM   #6
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It looks like you were in the wrong group, or there were a lot of others in the wrong group, judging by how quickly you closed on cars ahead with free track.

When someone in front of me is driving such a crappy line, I back off and give them room in case they f-up. You aren't racing and you are giving yourself very little room for error riding tailgates like that. I know its frustrating, but let the hot pits be your friend!

I'll leave the pros to give tips on line
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      09-24-2013, 04:51 PM   #7
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Your instructors had you on a good line.
The group you were in was slow which makes it a little harder for you to learn to speed up.

Hope you are running street tires so you can start to hear them talking to you in corners. Good for learning traction limits....

Didn't hear the instructor cry out ." brake... brake, ...holy mother of god brake...." so you must have been doing good.
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Last edited by arter; 09-24-2013 at 04:57 PM.
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      09-24-2013, 05:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arter
Your instructors had you on a good line.
The group you were in was slow which makes it a little harder for you to learn to speed up.

Hope you are running street tires so you can start to hear them talking to you in corners. Good for learning traction limits....

Didn't hear the instructor cry out ." brake... brake, ...holy mother of god brake...." so you must have been doing good.
I'm on NT01's. They stick more than street tires but seem to communicate pretty well.

The traffic was heavy in the red group. My instructor tried to get me into yellow but it was very full so I stayed in red.

At thunderbolt I was moved into green (no yellow group) and I will say getting passed was much better than doing to passing as far as learning goes.

Hopefully in October there will be enough room in yellow. But wherever I am I'll make the best of it.
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      09-24-2013, 05:15 PM   #9
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I'm on NT01's. They stick more than street tires but seem to communicate pretty well.

The traffic was heavy in the red group. My instructor tried to get me into yellow but it was very full so I stayed in red.

At thunderbolt I was moved into green (no yellow group) and I will say getting passed was much better than doing to passing as far as learning goes.

Hopefully in October there will be enough room in yellow. But wherever I am I'll make the best of it.

I really suggest using street tires as with the speeds you are running at ( in this video) you are far from the traction limits of the NT-01's. This is very safe and comforting, but you need to be sliding a little ( at lower speeds) to learn to deal with it.

In any case, have fun.
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      09-24-2013, 05:25 PM   #10
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I really suggest using street tires as with the speeds you are running at ( in this video) you are far from the traction limits of the NT-01's. This is very safe and comforting, but you need to be sliding a little ( at lower speeds) to learn to deal with it.

In any case, have fun.
I agonized over this because I know that even without traffic I'm not nearing the speed limits of the NT-01's.

When I ran Thunderbolt with green group in July I chunked my Super Sports a good bit and I decided to get dedicated wheels and tires. I went back and forth between something like the RS-3 and the NT-01 and settled on the NT-01's based on talking to a few experienced track guys.

It's certainly a very good point and will consider switching back for the October event especially with it being cooler out maybe the Super Sports will fare better.
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      09-25-2013, 08:24 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
I agonized over this because I know that even without traffic I'm not nearing the speed limits of the NT-01's.

When I ran Thunderbolt with green group in July I chunked my Super Sports a good bit and I decided to get dedicated wheels and tires. I went back and forth between something like the RS-3 and the NT-01 and settled on the NT-01's based on talking to a few experienced track guys.

It's certainly a very good point and will consider switching back for the October event especially with it being cooler out maybe the Super Sports will fare better.
I used my PSSes at Lightning in August and felt I had to be careful not to push them too far. I swapped them right side to left side on day 2 to even out the wear. They got reaaaaaaalllyy greasy. Going to be on square 265 AD08s this time around.

Those run groups were pretty awful by the way. Red was such a mixed bag of experience. I am disappointed to say I didn't have occasion to give a single point by the entire weekend. It was mostly a (somewhat frustrating) exercise in passing that black STi over and over again. As you said, yellow was packed. If they're going to do an event of that size again I think they need a separate group for true novice.

There were probably just too many things going on with the races mixed in for the logistics to work out any better. We had several sessions that were a full 5 minutes short...

Anyway, shooting you a PM re: October.
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      09-25-2013, 01:53 PM   #12
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I used my PSSes at Lightning in August and felt I had to be careful not to push them too far. I swapped them right side to left side on day 2 to even out the wear. They got reaaaaaaalllyy greasy. Going to be on square 265 AD08s this time around.

Those run groups were pretty awful by the way. Red was such a mixed bag of experience. I am disappointed to say I didn't have occasion to give a single point by the entire weekend. It was mostly a (somewhat frustrating) exercise in passing that black STi over and over again. As you said, yellow was packed. If they're going to do an event of that size again I think they need a separate group for true novice.

There were probably just too many things going on with the races mixed in for the logistics to work out any better. We had several sessions that were a full 5 minutes short...

Anyway, shooting you a PM re: October.
Dave and jerry are a riot. I know them well. I'll be at NJMP in Oct. I'm instructing that event, so any questions, feel free to hunt me down in the paddock.
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      09-26-2013, 07:52 AM   #13
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Dave and jerry are a riot. I know them well. I'll be at NJMP in Oct. I'm instructing that event, so any questions, feel free to hunt me down in the paddock.
Ahh - I wish I could get you to ride with me since you're also a DelVal instructor (my home chapter) if I'm not mistaken! I always get assigned to E30 guys, which is great because E30 guys tend to be awesome but the lines they prefer don't always take 3700lbs into consideration

Sorry for the Doug
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      09-26-2013, 08:14 AM   #14
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Ahh - I wish I could get you to ride with me since you're also a DelVal instructor (my home chapter) if I'm not mistaken! I always get assigned to E30 guys, which is great because E30 guys tend to be awesome but the lines they prefer don't always take 3700lbs into consideration

Sorry for the Doug
You can send the registrar a request to pair us up, or if my car is fixed by then, you can ride along with me.
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      09-26-2013, 01:06 PM   #15
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Its ok to go slow and work on technique and lines first - thats what i am currently and you will get used to the speed but keep the same smooth technique. In the long run, its better. That being said you should have been getting point bys in that group. Traffic is expected but traffic due to driver in front not knowing wth is going on in front of them is to me unacceptable.
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      09-26-2013, 01:11 PM   #16
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Its ok to go slow and work on technique and lines first - thats what i am currently and you will get used to the speed but keep the same smooth technique. In the long run, its better. That being said you should have been getting point bys in that group. Traffic is expected but traffic due to driver in front not knowing wth is going on in front of them is to me unacceptable.
The point bys got better but it was an issue all weekend. That's the way it goes. Made the best of it.
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      09-26-2013, 06:13 PM   #17
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The point bys got better but it was an issue all weekend. That's the way it goes. Made the best of it.
For the lower groups, get used to pulling into the pits and take a 45 second delay to get out of the trains. Most of the rest of the track is probably open.........
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      09-26-2013, 08:15 PM   #18
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I was in yellow for that weekend, and I was pretty disappointed at how badly the groups were organized.

Anyways I think NT01 may hinder the process of learning the car or the track. I would actually put the PSS back on and practice managing tires and controlling slip angles.
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      09-27-2013, 08:56 AM   #19
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I was in yellow for that weekend, and I was pretty disappointed at how badly the groups were organized.

Anyways I think NT01 may hinder the process of learning the car or the track. I would actually put the PSS back on and practice managing tires and controlling slip angles.
I think they tried to fit too much in for one weekend with the racers and such.

As for the NT01's, I'll use them since I have them, but I'll strongly consider switching to something like the RS-03 for AD08 for the next set of tires.
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      09-27-2013, 01:37 PM   #20
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holy traffic batman! I clicked in the middle of the video and thought you guys were doing parade laps! That group is either too big or unbalanced, either way this should have been addressed by the organizers after a couple of sessions.
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      09-27-2013, 02:42 PM   #21
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holy traffic batman! I clicked in the middle of the video and thought you guys were doing parade laps! That group is either too big or unbalanced, either way this should have been addressed by the organizers after a couple of sessions.
Folks, it's tough to do with so many drivers at once, so safety becomes a first priority. When large numbers of drivers sign up for events, we try to accomodate everyone and their skill levels, which can be tough. But remember this isn't a race, so if you get frustrated, pull into the hot pit, wait 20 seconds and continue.

Drivers are graded by us instructors after each event, and most clubs keep a record of each drivers progress. There are reasons DEs do point by, two by two, and leap frog excersices. There are many times that I've personally not moved someone up on their last day, because while they are faster and can maintain the line, they need the practice in traffic. Not everyone is an expert at being passed or passing and it's something you guys should practice all the time.

If however someone is contiuously holding up traffic, not pointing people by, ask your instructor to have a chat with that persons instructor. As instructors we share the grief and stories and work with each other and assist with trouble students. This way the instructor can focus on traffic management more. As instructors we are doing 100 x more things sitting in the right seat, than you drivers are doing while driving. So any 'assistance' from another instructor or raising of awareness works wonders.

Also, if you're all planning on doing the NJ event in October at NJMP, be prepared for some traffic. This is our yearly signature event for intro to driving school. Remeber we were ALL first timers at one point.


Good luck, drive hard and safe and stay off the blue / black / green stuff!

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      09-27-2013, 04:30 PM   #22
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Folks, it's tough to do with so many drivers at once, so safety becomes a first priority. When large numbers of drivers sign up for events, we try to accomodate everyone and their skill levels, which can be tough. But remember this isn't a race, so if you get frustrated, pull into the hot pit, wait 20 seconds and continue.

Drivers are graded by us instructors after each event, and most clubs keep a record of each drivers progress. There are reasons DEs do point by, two by two, and leap frog excersices. There are many times that I've personally not moved someone up on their last day, because while they are faster and can maintain the line, they need the practice in traffic. Not everyone is an expert at being passed or passing and it's something you guys should practice all the time.

If however someone is contiuously holding up traffic, not pointing people by, ask your instructor to have a chat with that persons instructor. As instructors we share the grief and stories and work with each other and assist with trouble students. This way the instructor can focus on traffic management more. As instructors we are doing 100 x more things sitting in the right seat, than you drivers are doing while driving. So any 'assistance' from another instructor or raising of awareness works wonders.

Also, if you're all planning on doing the NJ event in October at NJMP, be prepared for some traffic. This is our yearly signature event for intro to driving school. Remeber we were ALL first timers at one point.


Good luck, drive hard and safe and stay off the blue / black / green stuff!

Several valid points above about instructor to student and instructor2instructor communication, instructors have to do their best to manage the current situation.

However, it's the responsibility of each registrar to not overbook any particular event. Some traffic is expected, especially in the lower groups, but what I see on that video is unacceptable (to me) and would not run with an organization that overbooks its events. The spacing numbers are clear and well known for a track like this.

At the end of day we all spend $$ to go to the track and the organizers have to do their best to provide maximum track time (& education where applicable), that is usable track time, not traffic/parade lap time. I would encourage everyone to explore different clubs and see how they deal with run groups and maximize track time
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