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      01-09-2014, 07:53 PM   #1827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIdriver View Post
PS: I believe that the title of the last table on post #1786 should read:
Complete 702/703 Bearing Specifications with Eccentricity
Fixed. Thanks.
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      01-09-2014, 09:17 PM   #1828
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Originally Posted by GIdriver View Post
Does anyone here thinks we have enough information and/or enough bearing related failures to print this thread, take it to a lawyer and start a big ass class action lawsuit?
What do you think we have concluded here? As far as I understand it, we have concluded that in the course of the 6 year S65 production run, BMW changed the connecting rod bearing parts and the new parts differed from the old ones. OEMs do running changes to cars ALL THE TIME. And why? TO FIX PROBLEMS or TO INCREASE DURABILITY.

Even if we assume that this bearing change was in part to help ameliorate a bearing clearance concern, what are you going to assert in the lawsuit? That they changed a clearance to benefit owners by making engine problems less likely? And that is bad why?

Lawsuits need to show economic damage before they can recoup money. The only people who can make a compelling claim to have suffered economic damage due to BMW are people who:
(0) had their engine blow up
(1) after the 4 yr/50K warranty period and were denied coverage by BMW
(2) and who had not supercharged their engines
(3) and had not applied aftermarket tunes

How many people like this (fulfilling all 4 categories) are there? 10?

Pat

Last edited by catpat8000; 01-09-2014 at 09:25 PM.
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      01-09-2014, 09:29 PM   #1829
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And it appears that there is at least one (if not more) engines met criteria 1-3 and not 4, and still got replaced under goodwill (per kawasaki).

Also, if IIRC automobile manufacturers are exempt from claims that a part or design that is changed/improved from an older part does not automatically constitute an "admission" that the older part/design was faulty. I did some research into this when my differential bolt snapped (covered under warranty).

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Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
What do you think we have concluded here? As far as I understand it, we have concluded that in the course of the 6 year S65 production run, BMW changed the connecting rod bearing parts and the new parts differed from the old ones. OEMs do running changes to cars ALL THE TIME. And why? TO FIX PROBLEMS or TO INCREASE DURABILITY.

Even if we assume that this bearing change was in part to help ameliorate a bearing clearance concern, what are you going to assert in the lawsuit? That they changed a clearance to benefit owners by making engine problems less likely?

Lawsuits need to show economic damage before they can recoup money. The only people who have suffered damage are people who:
(0) had their engine blow up
(1) after the 4 yr/50K warranty period
(2) and who had not supercharged their engines
(3) and had not applied aftermarket tunes

How many people like this (fulfilling all 4 categories) are there? 10?

Pat
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      01-09-2014, 09:40 PM   #1830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIdriver View Post
Does anyone here thinks we have enough information and/or enough bearing related failures to print this thread, take it to a lawyer and start a big ass class action lawsuit?
Typical mentality ... lawsuit.

Like that person in the US suing Mcxxxxx after spilling a hot cup of coffee on his/herself and claiming the coffee shouldn't have been that hot.

Lawsuit must be a common word.
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      01-09-2014, 10:06 PM   #1831
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I am anti-litigation usually, but BMW will not acknowledge any issues without the threat of a lawsuit. BMW tries their very best to sweep any non-safety related issues under the rug. BMW is not alone in this behavior, but as the S54 initial bearing issues and N54 HPFP issues showed, they will blame the customer for everything until large numbers fail and the threat of class action appears.
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      01-09-2014, 10:15 PM   #1832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiem3
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIdriver View Post
Does anyone here thinks we have enough information and/or enough bearing related failures to print this thread, take it to a lawyer and start a big ass class action lawsuit?
Typical mentality ... lawsuit.

Like that person in the US suing Mcxxxxx after spilling a hot cup of coffee on his/herself and claiming the coffee shouldn't have been that hot.

Lawsuit must be a common word.
I think you would have a different opinion if you were paying payments on a car that blew up and now needs a new $12, 000+ engine. all because bmw didn't engineer the bearing clearences to mahles sspecific clear to even a consumer specifications. not only that but this is the second generation of bearing failures in a Sxx engine. thr previous motor had a recall and everyone was happy. now this one vmw won't even goodwill. I think thats a little more serious then someone spilling some coffee on themselves. I usually would agree that americans are ridiculously sue happy but I think this is a justified occasion. unless you think BMW will just come out and pay without any one going after them? unfortunately I don't have the time money or knowledge to do so. as well I don't think my case would hold at all, being second owner. so I will just go back to rebuilding my motor to correct specs like bmw should have.
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      01-09-2014, 10:53 PM   #1833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtracing View Post
I think you would have a different opinion if you were paying payments on a car that blew up and now needs a new $12, 000+ engine. all because bmw didn't engineer the bearing clearences to mahles sspecific clear to even a consumer specifications. not only that but this is the second generation of bearing failures in a Sxx engine. thr previous motor had a recall and everyone was happy. now this one vmw won't even goodwill. I think thats a little more serious then someone spilling some coffee on themselves. I usually would agree that americans are ridiculously sue happy but I think this is a justified occasion. unless you think BMW will just come out and pay without any one going after them? unfortunately I don't have the time money or knowledge to do so. as well I don't think my case would hold at all, being second owner. so I will just go back to rebuilding my motor to correct specs like bmw should have.
I am in this situation as my engine blew up after warranty. I'm still paying payments for the car and still had to fork up funds to get a new engine. I'd be in with the rest who would like to go for a lawsuit here. I am also the second owner so I am with you as my situation would be harder than if I was the original owner.

Great appreciation to RG, Kawasaki, YS, and rest contributing to this thread. Lots of knowledge was learned. And lots was proven.

As I had to search for a new engine, I spoke with many mechanics and engineers who have been working on these engines since production. They all said the same thing, these engines have tight bearing clearances and they all have seen many engines failed and replaced.
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      01-10-2014, 12:41 AM   #1834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtracing View Post
I think you would have a different opinion if you were paying payments on a car that blew up and now needs a new $12, 000+ engine. all because bmw didn't engineer the bearing clearences to mahles sspecific clear to even a consumer specifications. not only that but this is the second generation of bearing failures in a Sxx engine. thr previous motor had a recall and everyone was happy. now this one vmw won't even goodwill. I think thats a little more serious then someone spilling some coffee on themselves. I usually would agree that americans are ridiculously sue happy but I think this is a justified occasion. unless you think BMW will just come out and pay without any one going after them? unfortunately I don't have the time money or knowledge to do so. as well I don't think my case would hold at all, being second owner. so I will just go back to rebuilding my motor to correct specs like bmw should have.
If your lease/higher purchase scheme extends beyond your warranty it is not BMW problem, and just because you're still making a repayment, doesn't make BMW obliged to replace your blown engine. Surely, BMW will assess case-by-case and if too much tinkering with the engine has been detected then BMW has every right to refuse even goodwill.

I am well out of warranty and if the engine blows I will raise it with BMW and if BMW rejects it based on findings and if I am happy with those I have to accept. If the car is bone stock then I will try and fight it to some extent given the mileage and other factors.

Nothing has been conclusive so far and we are all still in the dark as to the real cause behind some of the engine blow ups. It's not clear cut. Ask the experts - RG, Kawasaki, YN SFG ... unless I am missing something.

Some claims have be rejected by the dealer to make more through parts and labour. If it's done under warranty, the dealer will only get paid for the labour and that too the time specified by factory and KSD/TIS, not a minute over that. BMW allocated time in 5 minute increments. 5 minutes = one fru, so 12 fru for an hour's work.
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      01-10-2014, 02:06 AM   #1835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
The peak combustion pressure occurs at peak torque. This occurs at 4000 rpm. The torque curve is pretty flat on the S65 and the engine develops roughly the same amount of torque up to 7500 rpm, whereupon torque starts to fall.

So from 7500 rpm to 8400 rpm, torque (combustion pressure) is falling and inertial loads are climbing with the square of the rpm.

So why couldn't we say conclusively that loads will increase substantially as the rpm limit is raised upwards of 8400 rpm?
I think it is likely for the exact reasons you and I have stated that the loads will be higher but I would not guarantee it. There is a very complex relationship by rpm and throughout the crank angle for the loads. The load is also a vector with both side and axial components into the rod. There can be load cancellation of combustion pressure and inertial components. I have posted on this prior here in this thread along with a reference to the thesis. Have a look. A detailed rigid body kinematic simulation model with the requisite input of the cylinder pressures vs. crank angle and rpm is required to firmly conclude the statement.
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      01-10-2014, 02:19 AM   #1836
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I think the class action talk is really nonsense as well.

1. There has not been proof that BMW did something "wrong", "in error" or did shoddy engineering. BMW have been running engines with clearances substantially tighter than the Clevite specification for decades.
2. Cars break, sometimes major components, sometimes catastrophically, both for the car even for passengers. Deep down everyone knows this. In the vast majority of cases this not grounds for a lawsuit.
3. There is certainly no proof of an epidemic of clear bearing related failures.
4. There is no proof that the changes between the bearing series has or will significantly reduce bearing related failures. To me this is a really the key indeterminate.

Again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
The only people who can make a compelling claim to have suffered economic damage due to BMW are people who:
(0) had their engine blow up
(1) after the 4 yr/50K warranty period and were denied coverage by BMW
(2) and who had not supercharged their engines
(3) and had not applied aftermarket tunes

How many people like this (fulfilling all 4 categories) are there? 10?
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      01-10-2014, 02:21 AM   #1837
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RG: No thoughts on whether or not eccentricity can be accurately measured on a bearing set when installed, removed, reinstalled then measured?

This issue is still making me extremely uneasy with the last large measurement "dump". Bearings do crush (i.e. yield, i.e. permanently deform) when being installed.
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      01-10-2014, 02:56 AM   #1838
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Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
What do you think we have concluded here? As far as I understand it, we have concluded that in the course of the 6 year S65 production run, BMW changed the connecting rod bearing parts and the new parts differed from the old ones. OEMs do running changes to cars ALL THE TIME. And why? TO FIX PROBLEMS or TO INCREASE DURABILITY.

Even if we assume that this bearing change was in part to help ameliorate a bearing clearance concern, what are you going to assert in the lawsuit? That they changed a clearance to benefit owners by making engine problems less likely? And that is bad why?

Lawsuits need to show economic damage before they can recoup money. The only people who can make a compelling claim to have suffered economic damage due to BMW are people who:
(0) had their engine blow up
(1) after the 4 yr/50K warranty period and were denied coverage by BMW
(2) and who had not supercharged their engines
(3) and had not applied aftermarket tunes

How many people like this (fulfilling all 4 categories) are there? 10?

Pat
I'm not a litigation happy person either, and I'm not qualified to know if a lawsuit could be started.

But Pat, I'll remind you after our company IPO, remember that blood sucking lawyer from San Diego who was famous for filing class action lawsuits on behalf of shareholders who lost money? Remember how that lawyer buys up 1000 shares of all these IPO stocks, waits for them to slightly tank after the IPO as so many do, then he files a class action lawsuit, gets his lawyer fees and makes millions. How much did TMTA settle that lawsuit? Wasn't it quite a bit? My memory isn't so good, but I thought it was settled for many millions of dollars just to make it go away.

My point is that cause or not, injury or not, actual loss or not, some a$$hole lawyer can always find a way to file a lawsuit for nothing more than bereavement of the loss of, or emotional distress worrying about his prized S65/M3.

Last edited by regular guy; 01-10-2014 at 03:19 AM.
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      01-10-2014, 03:17 AM   #1839
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RG: No thoughts on whether or not eccentricity can be accurately measured on a bearing set when installed, removed, reinstalled then measured?

This issue is still making me extremely uneasy with the last large measurement "dump". Bearings do crush (i.e. yield, i.e. permanently deform) when being installed.
According to something YS posted earlier, the purpose of measuring eccentricity 10mm from the parting line was to avoid crush distortion. So I don't see this as an issue unless he changes his story and now calls everything crap.

Another source (the article I read) instructed to measure eccentricity at 3/8 inch above parting line...probably for the same reason (although it didn't say why).

Here's one thing I found very interesting about measuring the eccentricity on the BMW rods. The rods have a letter/number cast in them, above the parting line, seemingly at the precise location one would like to measure the eccentricity. I found it very convenient, and easy to point my bore gauge at those exact casting marks to get very consistent measurements between the rods.
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      01-10-2014, 03:35 AM   #1840
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Like that person in the US suing Mcxxxxx after spilling a hot cup of coffee on his/herself and claiming the coffee shouldn't have been that hot.
Was it not the case that the woman had complained that her coffee wasn't very hot so they put it in the microwave and heated it up until boiling then gave it her back?
Anyway...carry on.
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      01-10-2014, 03:41 AM   #1841
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Quote:
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According to something YS posted earlier, the purpose of measuring eccentricity 10mm from the parting line was to avoid crush distortion. So I don't see this as an issue unless he changes his story and now calls everything crap.

Another source (the article I read) instructed to measure eccentricity at 3/8 inch above parting line...probably for the same reason (although it didn't say why).

Here's one thing I found very interesting about measuring the eccentricity on the BMW rods. The rods have a letter/number cast in them, above the parting line, seemingly at the precise location one would like to measure the eccentricity. I found it very convenient, and easy to point my bore gauge at those exact casting marks to get very consistent measurements between the rods.
Thanks.

But how and where to measure eccentricity is not necessarily related to my concern of if you can uninstall and reinstall bearings and still get valid eccentricity numbers.

Hmmm, so you want to rely on someone with whom you generally disagree on almost everything, and who has no known/validated credentials nor expertise (sorry YS, not trying to get a dig in at you, just calling it as per the information we have on hand) to insure that a pretty large/important and surprising set of measurements were not affected by a known (potentially) confounding part of the measurement technique (i.e. crush).

Not making me very comfortable...

Suggested possible "remedies"

1. Remeasure eccentricity of a single 702/703 bearing combination after one uninstall and reinstall. One weakness of this is that these bearings are substantially harder than the 088/089 bearings and thus will crush differently.
2. Remeasure eccentricity of a single new 088/089 bearing. I understand you have no new bearings left and never had new ones for one of these.
3. Remeasure a full set of 088/089 bearings (obviously only after #2 provided some reason to conclude that values change after an uninstall/reinstall).

Hopefully you can agree that given the fairly large surprise and potential ramifications of the insight gained, it warrants a very high degree of certainty about the technique used (and whether said technique will affect the results).

It's obvious you are a technique-meister so I suspect my concerns should very much resonate with you.
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      01-10-2014, 03:47 AM   #1842
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Quote:
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Was it not the case that the woman had complained that her coffee wasn't very hot so they put it in the microwave and heated it up until boiling then gave it her back?
Anyway...carry on.
Not quite that gratuitous but definitely a case that warranted significant discussion of frivolous lawsuits and tort reform.
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      01-10-2014, 04:38 AM   #1843
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According to something YS posted earlier, the purpose of measuring eccentricity 10mm from the parting line was to avoid crush distortion. So I don't see this as an issue unless he changes his story and now calls everything crap.
Is it really necessary to try so hard to discredit at every single opportunity? It does you no favours.

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Hmmm, so you want to rely on someone with whom you generally disagree on almost everything, and who has no known/validated credentials nor expertise (sorry YS, not trying to get a dig in at you, just calling it as per the information we have on hand) to insure that a pretty large/important and surprising set of measurements were not affected by a known (potentially) confounding part of the measurement technique (i.e. crush).
Not a problem but I can assure you I know how to measure very accurately. My credentials are fine.

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No thoughts on whether or not eccentricity can be accurately measured on a bearing set when installed, removed, reinstalled then measured?
As a matter of interest, these sizes below were quoted earlier in the thread. Taken from new 702/703 bearings. This give almost the exact same eccentricity that RG has found on the assembled rod as listed in the second quote. This indicates that you can get a pretty good idea of eccentricity from just the shell.

The bearing tapers off even more toward the part line so any crush distortion is taken care of within this extra clearance.

Bear in mind, my sizes are radial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Snow View Post

Measure the shell at 10mm from the parting line. The S65 is .0012" thinner there than at the 90 degrees point which is significantly more than the normal .0004" of regular shells.

This will effectively give a lot more eccentricity than a regular shell when installed in a rod no matter how you want to look at it.

If you are actually doing the measurements yourself, why can't you check it and report back
Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
The bearing eccentricity changed from 0.00085 inch on the 088/089 bearings to 0.00200 inch on the 702/703 bearings. That's a 2.5 times increase in eccentricity clearance which will allow the oil to escape the rods that much better.

Last edited by Yellow Snow; 01-10-2014 at 04:45 AM.
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      01-10-2014, 07:52 AM   #1844
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Provisional results from the recent engine fail poll.

Included in the 42 votes (Now 43) were a lot of mistaken votes, but they were spread through all the model years so the overall ratio of fails/model year remains similar.
Same goes for the non replies - I ended up reading through all their posts (that wasn't at all tiresome!) to see if they gave any indication at of all of ever having an engine problem and all but one didn't (I included his as a fail).

From the votes only (including even if it was a report of a third party fail):
2008 - 5
2009 - 1
2010 - 2
2011 - 4
2012 - 1
2013 - 2

Adding in the third party reports (but not voted) from RG and MikeB made in that thread (less two 2011s which actually had been voted for and the 2 with unknown MY) it becomes:
2008 - 6
2009 - 1
2010 - 2
2011 - 6
2012 - 2
2013 - 4

No obvious trends regarding gearbox type, pretty much all located in NA, not many noted a tune and a few were supercharged.
I'll add in the cars from the other thread in the next day or so which will bump up the numbers.
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      01-10-2014, 08:21 AM   #1845
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Provisional results from the recent engine fail poll.

Included in the 42 votes (Now 43) were a lot of mistaken votes, but they were spread through all the model years so the overall ratio of fails/model year remains similar.
Same goes for the non replies - I ended up reading through all their posts (that wasn't at all tiresome!) to see if they gave any indication at of all of ever having an engine problem and all but one didn't (I included his as a fail).

From the votes only (including even if it was a report of a third party fail):
2008 - 5
2009 - 1
2010 - 2
2011 - 4
2012 - 1
2013 - 2

Adding in the third party reports (but not voted) from RG and MikeB made in that thread (less two 2011s which actually had been voted for and the 2 with unknown MY) it becomes:
2008 - 6
2009 - 1
2010 - 2
2011 - 6
2012 - 2
2013 - 4

No obvious trends regarding gearbox type, pretty much all located in NA, not many noted a tune and a few were supercharged.
I'll add in the cars from the other thread in the next day or so which will bump up the numbers.
I know of 6 in the Charlotte NC area that are not on this board, but I have no idea what year they are.
I also have ties to certain things in this area so I cant say too much.
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      01-10-2014, 08:26 AM   #1846
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I know of 6 in the Charlotte NC area that are not on this board, but I have no idea what year they are.
I also have ties to certain things in this area so I cant say too much.
If you can get the years I'll add them to the second set of totals - mileage, if stock or not, transmission and cause of failure would be handy too.
Obviously owner recorded is always best, they generally have a thread with photos which makes verification that much easier.
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      01-10-2014, 08:56 AM   #1847
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Provisional results from the recent engine fail poll:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=924916

Included in the 42 votes (Now 43) were a lot of mistaken votes, but they were spread through all the model years so the overall ratio of fails/model year remains similar.
Same goes for the non replies - I ended up reading through all their posts (that wasn't at all tiresome!) to see if they gave any indication at of all of ever having an engine problem and all but one didn't (I included his as a fail).

1/ From the votes only (including even if it was a report of a third party fail):
2008 - 5
2009 - 1
2010 - 2
2011 - 4
2012 - 1
2013 - 2

2/ Adding in the third party reports (but not voted) from RG and MikeB made in that thread (less two 2011s which actually had been voted for and the 2 with unknown MY) it becomes:
2008 - 6
2009 - 1
2010 - 2
2011 - 6
2012 - 2
2013 - 4

2/ plus fails from the old thread: (excluding obviously those who already had voted in the poll above)
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786615

2008 - 12
2009 - 2
2010 - 2
2011 - 9
2012 - 2
2013 - 5


No obvious trends regarding gearbox type, pretty much all located in NA, not many noted a tune and a few were supercharged. Majority were some sort of bearing failure - crank and rod, a couple of valve fails and a good number were simply unknown. I'll total up later.
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      01-10-2014, 10:01 AM   #1848
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But Pat, I'll remind you after our company IPO, remember that blood sucking lawyer from San Diego who was famous for filing class action lawsuits on behalf of shareholders who lost money? Remember how that lawyer buys up 1000 shares of all these IPO stocks, waits for them to slightly tank after the IPO as so many do, then he files a class action lawsuit, gets his lawyer fees and makes millions. How much did TMTA settle that lawsuit? Wasn't it quite a bit? My memory isn't so good, but I thought it was settled for many millions of dollars just to make it go away.

My point is that cause or not, injury or not, actual loss or not, some a$$hole lawyer can always find a way to file a lawsuit for nothing more than bereavement of the loss of, or emotional distress worrying about his prized S65/M3.
Yes, you are correct. That guy did run a business filing frivolous lawsuits and more companies than not paid him to go away rather than litigate.

So your point that I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss a lawsuit is valid. However I'm still not convinced there is a real class-action lawsuit here. Whether a lawyer could create some Sturm und Drang is another question. I wonder if any real lawyers are reading this thread?
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