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      09-16-2013, 07:25 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by SpokenHands View Post
Scott26's elaborate justification of why BMW has broken every dogma they have set themselves in an effort to be more consumer-relevant, business-volume and margin-driven, and compliant with technology and regulation suggests it is not a good idea to boldly announce yet another definitive dogma 'no M for i-sub-brand'.

Scott26 makes the point beautifully that I hope the leaders of the i brand would consider.

Conversely, what if the 'M' brand wishes to take learnings from the 'i' brand - especially with regard to CRPF, weight-saving and efficiency in drivetrain and aerodynamics. They could well work together.
I'm pretty sure there will be a flow of knowledge and experience between i and M behind the scenes, but that doesn't mean BMW will actively market a car that bares the ideals of both -- it would be a bit like trying to sell Vegan friendly Bacon.

I'm sure however M could do something to get extra performance from the i8, through the aero and suspension, but it would probably compromise what BMW-i is about, and the last thing BMW want to do is to confuse the message of what the i8 is.. especially given that many people commenting here are already stumped by i.
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      09-16-2013, 07:45 AM   #46
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no i///M? Thank f'ing God!!! I've already given up on BMW... Porsche is all that's left.
You mean a VAG Porsche, with no possibility to have a manual, only the crappy PDK?
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      09-16-2013, 07:50 AM   #47
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Plenty of room to improve the quickness of the i8 as battery technology improves over the next few years. The 3 banger is probably close to topping out, but I can see some potential in the electric drivetrain.
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      09-16-2013, 08:50 AM   #48
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He said there will be no M-i collaboration basically.

HE DID NOT SAY there wouldn't be an M-car based on the i-8 platform!!
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      09-16-2013, 09:26 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver1 View Post
Scott is just playing the role of a typical car salesman and is trying to sell you what he has on the lot or has coming in. No plans for an M8 but hey we have an all new M4 coming in soon that is just as good. Except it looks very much like a 328i M Sport at half the price.

The i8 will share the same footnote in the history of BMW as the M1. A nice effort but poor execution.

A 'true sports car' doesn't have a tiny 3 cylinder engine. For the same price you can get an M6 with twice the performance. The performance of the i8 is what you expect from an i4 but then BMW couldn't charge twice the price to re-coupe the R&D costs.

Other than the CFRP, which has been around for how many years now? There is nothing earth shattering about the i3/i8. Put a perpetual motion machine in the
cars to generate electricity and you will really have a game changer. BMW i PR reminds me of when the Segway came on the scene and how it was going to revolutionize transportation.
The M4 is more than a standard 428i or 435i , M4 is its own car this is not the Audi RS5. Everything on the M4 is different , the body is wider to accommodate the wider track and the body panels differ if I were being honest the only exterior components the M4 has shared with the 4er Coupe are the door handles.

For BMW M. This is a perfect opportunity to create a new icon. The M3 Coupe is dead. So stop prolonging the wake , others want to get on with their lives.
BMW M4 will be a new icon because it tackles a major concern with enthusiasts the world over and that is the weight reduction. It progresses on from the initial Implementation car the BMW M3 CSL to refinement , BMW M3 E92 to extensive progress - BMW M4 Coupe. A reveal of specification is due very soon , so I will not give the entire news away , but a lot of progress in utilising CFRP is in the BMW M4 Coupe.

And this progress is defined by the BMW i3 and BMW i8.
We could have invested a lot of money into a forgettable high speed disco express with little return or we could invest in our future to safeguard independence. Independence from interference from a parent company which means when they sneeze their brands all catch colds.

BMW justified investment in sustainability and product. Product that sells in huge numbers, engineering solutions that can define a particular series of models and lead to expansion of further models. A super sports car can take up that amount of money best used for other ideas, but eventually there is progress and then someone makes you forgettable.

With an ever changing world due to legislation being imposed on manufactures there is only one solution , adapt or die.
The BMW i8 brief was to conceive something of an age where legislation would make a sports car obsolete. And we had to travel into that mindset to determine the strategy for the car. The i8 was originally tested back to back with both petrol and diesel but with major markets to consider the petrol won through.
The three cylinder engine in the i8 is not the same three cylinder coming to the new MINI. This is a special performance variant that gives the car its performance.

The i8 is a very fast car , due to its lightweight construction and aerodynamics
This is not a city car in a kit car replica body. This is the real deal , the i8 is as we state a progressive sports car.

As in every aspect of technology there is always progress further down the line and of course BMWi will not be any different in learning and adapting.
If we consider the reaction especially in regards to Teslas success in the EV Market.?
I admire Elon Musks business strategy and I am sure he likes the challenge and is probably grateful for the BMWi cars because Tesla now have a challenger in individual sustainability and of course this will get interesting for both companies.

As regards to nothing significant in the i3 and i8?

The car's stress individuality and are not an existing concept electrified.
BMWi investment incorporates infrastructure to support the cars.
The cars define a new factor of "New Premium" a progression of a luxury premium brand.
The BMW i3 is the worlds first "volume" production car to use a body structure fabricated out of CFRP.
Our competitors admit they are not even close to that level of CFRP for a volume car.
Both BMW i3 and i8 are BMWs with great dynamics.
BMW with the i3 and i8 will reach emission targets before their competitors.
Mass volume of CFRP within BMW is far more cost effective for implementation with other brands under BMW.
BMW M will use the genes of the i3 and i8 in the next generation of M cars.

The BMWi investment now moves into the core BMW brand with the development of the most technologically advanced 7er yet in under two years time. In amongst the introduction of new tech such as laser light technology , autonomous drive and driver passenger HUD with windscreen projection.
The 7er uses new composite structure utilising aluminium, hard pressed steel , magnesium and CFRP. Body panels will be manufactured from CFRP and like the i8 CFRP wheels will be featured. The next 7er will be significant lighter than today's car. Again all possible because of progress and investment .
And then the next generations all benefit.

Is it any wonder why BMW have been branded as the most innovative luxury manufacture over Audi and Mercedes-Benz?
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      09-16-2013, 09:57 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Unfortunately the ever changing aspects of the industry forced us to accept no more dogmas as legislation and customer reaction has lead to a progressive global market. You either progress? Which for BMW , independence is the overall strategy or you become part of a committee which defines your strategy only if your sister brands can have it.
All of the arguments you provided could be taken 10 years in to the future and applied to an integration of the i and M brands. Not saying it's a sure thing obviously, but IMO, it's foolish to have company men throwing around the word "never".

I think a more realistic long-term cycle is that technologies developed as part of the i brand begin to find their way in to the primary BMW line up, as well as M automobiles. I'm not suggesting a wholesale transplant of drivelines or anything, but as technologies are proven and refined, it will begin to make sense.

For example, what happens when battery (or an alternative energy storage) technology advances to the point that there is a raw performance benefit to energy recovery systems? At some point, it will seem obvious that a performance car should not waste the energy spent slowing the automobile down. At this point, the line between i and M becomes blurred.

When the execs say "never", they mean "not for the foreseeable future". The latter phrase is a conspiracy theorist's perennial favorite, however, so executives avoid it. I think in this case, "never" is meant to add clarity to the direction of the i and M brands, not as a definition of timelines.
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      09-16-2013, 10:04 AM   #51
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Yes make M versions of all the upcoming FWD cars, SUV's, 7-Series etc... And while we are at it, bring the Rolls Royce Phantom M660iXdriveL to life. But don't build a M1, Z4 M or anything that real enthusiasts -the exact same group of buyers who made BMW big- care about or want.
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      09-16-2013, 10:05 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post

The 7er uses new composite structure utilising aluminium, hard pressed steel , magnesium and CFRP.
I assume you mean "press hardened steel"? Also, I guess this is the Voestalpine process/product?
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      09-16-2013, 10:25 AM   #53
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Conversely, what if the 'M' brand wishes to take learnings from the 'i' brand - especially with regard to CRPF, weight-saving and efficiency in drivetrain and aerodynamics. They could well work together.
M division knows more about weight-saving than 'i'. They know much much more.

That's how M division save weight. Effective, cheap and straight forward.
Aerodynamic? Of course this i8 is more aerodynamic than any M car and that's because except the M1 every single M car has been based on a production car.
Efficiency in drivetrain? I'm not sure what you mean.
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      09-16-2013, 10:45 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Soorena View Post
Yes make M versions of all the upcoming FWD cars, SUV's, 7-Series etc... And while we are at it, bring the Rolls Royce Phantom M660iXdriveL to life. But don't build a M1, Z4 M or anything that real enthusiasts -the exact same group of buyers who made BMW big- care about or want.


I'm fairly sure BMW did not get ''big" selling M1's or ZxM's... I think it was probably more to do with high volume sales of core 3-er, 5-er and X product lines, being bought by people who are not "real enthusiasts", but just people who want a nice car.

Also I doubt BMW will make M versions of all the upcoming FWD cars, or the 7 series, and probably not the entire SUV line, and I'm pretty sure they also won't touch the Rolls-Royce brand with the M name, or infact any BMW model nomenclature.

But yes you're plainly correct, BMW obviously don't build "anything that real enthusiasts" care about ... how will they ever survive without a few hundred Z4M sales per year...</sarcasm>

edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soorena View Post
M division knows more about weight-saving than 'i'. They know much much more.

That's how M division save weight. Effective, cheap and straight forward.
Aerodynamic? Of course this i8 is more aerodynamic than any M car and that's because except the M1 every single M car has been based on a production car.
Efficiency in drivetrain? I'm not sure what you mean.
Umm, they made some parts out of CFRP, they took out alot of stuff, and made some parts out of lighter metals... not exactly that different to the techniques employed with the i8...

.. also.. cheap? The CSL was 40-50% MORE expensive than the M3.
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      09-16-2013, 11:11 AM   #55
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I assume you mean "press hardened steel"? Also, I guess this is the Voestalpine process/product?
Yes. Between translation iPad pre-emptive text the meaning became mixed.
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      09-16-2013, 11:13 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by SpokenHands View Post
There will never be a front wheel drive BMW.
There will never be an M version of an X model.
There will not be an M sport version of the luxury-oriented 5GT.
There will never be an M badged diesel.
BMW don't do electric assisted power steering
M cars are manual only.


Never say never. Ask BMW.
Unfortunately the ever changing aspects of the industry forced us to accept no more dogmas as legislation and customer reaction has lead to a progressive global market. You either progress? Which for BMW , independence is the overall strategy or you become part of a committee which defines your strategy only if your sister brands can have it.

Dogma 1.
There will never be a front wheel drive BMW.

The global market has shown a paradigm shift towards the compact premium car which has led to upmarket premium cars impact heavily on volume manufacturers. MINI was the first premium compact car which led to imitators releasing their variation of a successful premium compact car.

Premium compact cars are also the defining factor in growth for the entire industry this decade , premium compact cars are very much in demand and of course essential to meet legislation being imposed on the industry.
To be in the compact market you have to compete and in regards to that one of the most required aspects is space.

The launch of the production variant of the BMW Active Tourer in a little over five months. Will make use of its FWD credentials to promote space and flexibility in a dynamic concept that will be the most exceptional car to drive in its segment yet offer customers and importantly new customers , space , dynasm and flexibility in an entirely new concept for BMW.

In regards to enthusiasts who reckon we pissed in their church. There was a negative response initially but on the BMW.com website we have a registration request on the Active Tourer that has been requested by over 200,000 users. If we can transfer that or even half of that into sales within a projected period then we will have a successful new line for BMW and a new market.

The arrival on the FWD will be known as we have about electric mobility.
We intend to change the whole definition of a front wheel driven car. The BMW FWD concepts are being interpreted as game changers for the segment.
The new FWD concepts will be aligned with MINI for better economies of scale. It will also allow MINI to become entirely profitable.

Dogma 2.
There will never be an M version of an X model.


The market changed , opened up new territories and a new customer dynamic.
The SUV market continues to grow as does the performance SUV market.
Luxury SUVs are impacting on luxury sedan sales and manufacturers are accepting demand in all segments. Performance SAVs under the BMW X5M and BMW X6M are considered volume sellers because in key important markets they are the best selling M Vehicles, and they continue to sell.
More SAVs and Performance SAVs under BMW M. And BMW M. Performance are coming.

Dogma 3.
There will not be an M sport version of the luxury-oriented 5GT.

M Sport packet is now essential for each new production model. As some customers like the look of the M Sport packet to enhance the image of their car.

Dogma 4.
There will never be an M badged diesel.

The M.Performance brand was created due to the demands of M customers particularly in Europe. Many countries have different legislation in regards to emissions , leading to more money required in taxes.

The M. Performance brand allows the M brand to continue in the pursuit of high performance cars that embode individual features and technology whilst M Performance caters for the requirements considered taboo for BMW M.
Such as diesel and XDrive.

The M50d models embodie everything characteristic about M. Individuality , Performance and Precision. The M550d is an excellent car and the Tri-Turbo engine is a feat of BMWs engineering prowess.
We will see further M Performance cars starting with the BMW M235i which will be a bigger icon for the brand than the M135i.

The next generation of BMW M cars starting with the new M3 and M4 will see a revolution in regards to weight reduction allowing each brand considerable breathing space to promote their individual performance credentials.

Dogma 5.
BMW don't do electric assisted power steering

Electric power assisted steering is a feature of BMW EfficientDynamics.
Every BMW is conceived to feature EfficientDynamics technology in regards to BMW meeting its required targets - something that is well on course ahead of their core competitors.

Of course like many implementation of new technology there is also a period of progress , the new BMW 5er for example shows progress but it is a constant to continue to progress and there are some upcoming new models that will show a 360 degree shift on what you normally expect a BMW with electrically assisted steering should drive like.

Dogma 6.
M cars are manual only

Again we can look at the changing demographics of the market but also in the progress of drivetrain technology. BMW M is an innovator it has developed areas our competitors cannot tread and utilises technology designed for Motorsport purpose on the road.

Each aspect is perfectly tailored to suit each individual model. An M car is special because it starts off with the key component. An excellent road car chassis and then they work on that to develop each element from gearshift to steering to dynamics etc. new technology such as the M DCT are more suited to cars like the M5 and M6 because of their status in the luxury market. Smaller M cars are more enthusiast driven so there is more need for more communication from the driver to the car.

But in recent years we have begun to see the demise of the manual. Sales of vehicles especially BMWs with manual transmissions are in decline and we are at an interesting phase to see if they will eventually die out. The only thing that can prevent that is for customers to continue to buy cars with manual transmission.

For BMW M. It understands that the purest form of performance driving lies with a manual transmission which is why the upcoming BMW M3 and BMW M4 will be offered with a manual transmission as will the next generation BMW M2 Coupe.
Thank you. I don't know who greenlights these comments or whether you're just going rogue...but I can't thank you enough. This very interesting, open, honest dialogue about the brand will pay dividends.

I can't wait for my manual M2.
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      09-16-2013, 11:31 AM   #57
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I would have liked to see a i8 M faster than the serial model.
One with a faster acceleration.
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      09-16-2013, 01:14 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by John Tanglewood View Post
He said there will be no M-i collaboration basically.

HE DID NOT SAY there wouldn't be an M-car based on the i-8 platform!!
I think he did say that there is no room for V8 on the platform of i8.

I don't think BMW wants to do M version of i8. As of right now, they are pointing out that i8 is a brand new product and not a electrified version of existing concept. If we build a M version of i8, it won't be much different than what they don't want specifically.
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      09-16-2013, 01:24 PM   #59
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Scott keeps mentioning the goal to stay independent so BMW is not ran like Volkswagen.

If you ask me, Volkswagen Group single handedly ruined brands of Lamborghini and Bentley. I was shocked to find out that Lamborghini's, historically performance rear-wheel drive cars are AWD today because you know why. Bentley Continental GT is AWD as well, after being RWD for all its history.
Porsche will get there soon, well, they are already half way there with SUV and Sedan. Audi has been ruined since the beginning with FWD "luxury" cars.

BUT, isn't BMW already doing it? Isn't the reason we're making FWD BMWs Mini?

And when (not if) BMW is part of a bigger group in the future, I cannot wait to read something along the lines of "being part of this group will provide BMW with abundant resources that will allow us to stay at top as well as allowing us to build cars such as successor to M1 and be much more efficient by sharing platforms which is becoming more and more important in saving production costs, blah blah."

The same nonsense BMW gave us after saying BMW will NEVER make FWD cars. Now they say how fun MINIs are to drive and how they get raving reviews.
Well, we don't give a shit how well you can make FWD cars drive. Laws of physics can't be beat and the stigma of FWD that YOU helped create will still be there.
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      09-16-2013, 01:29 PM   #60
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The next generation of BMW M cars starting with the new M3 and M4 will see a revolution in regards to weight reduction
GREAT news

Scott, is there any talk about making "cup" streetable r compound tires available as an option from the factory, and a bolt-in roll bar from the performance catalog, the way Porsche does?
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      09-16-2013, 01:35 PM   #61
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GREAT news

Scott, is there any talk about making "cup" streetable r compound tires available as an option from the factory, and a bolt-in roll bar from the performance catalog, the way Porsche does?
The M4 Concept shown here features additional accessories that will be offered via the M Performance accessories line. There will be additional exterior and interior equipment for M4 Coupe and M3.
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      09-16-2013, 02:12 PM   #62
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///M8.

alryt BMW then don't make an i ///M car. but please make an ///M8! a superduper M car that can compare with the Lamborghini Aventador, Ferrari F12 Berlinetta or 458 italia, and any other supercar out there!!
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      09-16-2013, 02:16 PM   #63
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For BMW M. This is a perfect opportunity to create a new icon. The M3 Coupe is dead. So stop prolonging the wake , others want to get on with their lives.
BMW M4 will be a new icon because it tackles a major concern with enthusiasts the world over and that is the weight reduction.
I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.

I hope the specifications back that up, and it is not another case of it being 100lbs lighter but only if you compare it to an equally equipped E92.

Last edited by bimmerjph; 09-16-2013 at 02:24 PM.
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      09-16-2013, 03:20 PM   #64
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Surprising that he is so dismissive. Certainly Porsche are converging electric and performance. Aka 918 fastest ring lap ever.
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      09-16-2013, 03:35 PM   #65
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Surprising that he is so dismissive. Certainly Porsche are converging electric and performance. Aka 918 fastest ring lap ever.
Well, if you "converge" a +600 hp single plane crank V8 engine with just about anything performance isn't going to be an issue...
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      09-16-2013, 04:13 PM   #66
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Surprising that he is so dismissive. Certainly Porsche are converging electric and performance. Aka 918 fastest ring lap ever.
Maybe it would have been even faster if they dropped the hybrid tech to lower the weight

But then again, the tech probably has to be developed anyway to help "future proof" the brand and passing costs through to mega rich customers under the guise of "fastest ring time ever" is a smart way to do business
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