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      09-14-2013, 08:44 AM   #23
BMWrules7
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomer123
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Originally Posted by BMWrules7
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I believe the 1997 328i has a similar locking system and I think it's newsworthy to this group.

Next, so you're saying that since everyone does it, no one is responsible?

I am not sure if the girls parents would agree with you.

Finally, if you propose a better title that still captures the reality of the situation, I will amend my post.
"Girl dies in BMW" or "Girl dies in car", not "BMW Kills". They did not proactively kill a young girl - unless you are a sensationalist tabloid writer.

I'm not playing the blame game, I'm not saying no one is responsible - that's a ludicrous, and again, sensational question I will not answer. Moreover, I'm not in a position to answer.

However, soley placing the blame on BMW as your title strongly infers is unacceptable. Especially as this is outlined in the owners manual and has been a feature of most cars for as long as I can remember.
Lol, I see. So that "stupid" little 14 year old forgot to read the manual and done cooked herself in a car---heaven forbid we mention it was a BMW.

No, I rather subscribe to the truth. The BMW did it. And a beautiful little girl was killed at the hands of a design decision.
Absolutely not, but I'm not having this discussion with you if you're just going to sensationalise everything and attempt to paint me out as the bad guy.

I am relaying facts from the company's liability perspective, and from this point of view, I fail to see how BMW are responsible when they have explained the system and scenario.
First, you are not a bad guy. You see this differently than me. That's what this board is for.

Second, I see this from the perspective of the family.

But, someone made a great point, who leaves a 14 year old in the car? Had it been a two year old we would not be arguing the merits of central locking. We would be focused on the parents.

But, should the central locking system prevent a 14 year old from surviving? Had she been 16 she might have kicked out the window. But 14 is borderline between child and older kid.
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      09-14-2013, 09:07 AM   #24
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Really wish she had just kicked in a window, but easy to say from my couch.

I think this feature is a poor design choice from BMW, there is no reason why a thief wouldn't just break out the window. Car alarms are useless these days, so I don't buy setting off the alarm being the "safety feature." I fail to see a use case where this would be beneficial.

As a side, it's startling how hot a car can get as quick, I remember an interesting autoblog video about this very subject:

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      09-14-2013, 09:27 AM   #25
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WTF? Uh, something here just doesn't add up, a 14 year old can't figure out how to exit a locked car? To the point of death? Your link is broken BTW.
No. That's how BMWs work. Go try it. Have someone lock you in the vehicle with the fob and windows rolled up. You ain't getting out without breaking windows.

It's called central locking and is an anti theft feature.
Unless you press the door unlock button!
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      09-14-2013, 09:49 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kowboi
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Originally Posted by BMWrules7
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Originally Posted by drob23
WTF? Uh, something here just doesn't add up, a 14 year old can't figure out how to exit a locked car? To the point of death? Your link is broken BTW.
No. That's how BMWs work. Go try it. Have someone lock you in the vehicle with the fob and windows rolled up. You ain't getting out without breaking windows.

It's called central locking and is an anti theft feature.
Unless you press the door unlock button!
No. The door unlock button is disabled when car locked by fob, key, or comfort access.
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      09-14-2013, 12:31 PM   #27
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Locking from the outside
Do not lock the vehicle from the outside if
there are people in it, as the vehicle cannot be
unlocked from inside without special knowledge.
Does anybody know what this special knowledge is?
Personally, I think it's dangerous to disable unlocking from inside, regardless of how many other manufacturers do it or whether it can be exploited to access the car without the key.
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      09-14-2013, 12:47 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7
The BMW did it.
Saying "the BMW did it" would only apply if "the BMW" locked the car with passengers inside. While you are at it maybe you should also blame the Sun!
Will you be selling your BMW to avoid the chance it will kill one of your passengers?
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      09-14-2013, 12:49 PM   #29
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Absolutely not, but I'm not having this discussion with you if you're just going to sensationalise everything and attempt to paint me out as the bad guy.

I am relaying facts from the company's liability perspective, and from this point of view, I fail to see how BMW are responsible when they have explained the system and scenario.
I am not pinpointing you but just because BMW puts a notice in the manual doesn't mean that they are not responsible if it is a design fault.

In my opinion this feature should absolutely not be there. If a robber is going to break the window than he really wants something in the car. He doesn't nee to open the door he can just reach in through the window and get it. One of these cases is way too much, and I rather have robbers breaking the window and opening a door than have a few of these cases.

Sometimes the parents leave the kid in the car and leave it unlocked but when they put the keys in the purse or pockets it may hit something and lock it by accident without even the parent noticing. Then this is where this feature becomes the problem.
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      09-14-2013, 01:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7
The BMW did it.
Saying "the BMW did it" would only apply if "the BMW" locked the car with passengers inside. While you are at it maybe you should also blame the Sun!
Will you be selling your BMW to avoid the chance it will kill one of your passengers?

Well, I am a systems guy. If you note, I am blaming a "thing" and not a person.

I see this issue as having been reasonably foreseeable.
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      09-14-2013, 02:39 PM   #31
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I thought newer BMWs have a feature where in if the car is stationary and engine is off you can't lock it if someone is inside.
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      09-14-2013, 06:12 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by izzyM3
I thought newer BMWs have a feature where in if the car is stationary and engine is off you can't lock it if someone is inside.
This might explain why BMW is so steadfast in its decision to implement motion sensors on most of its vehicles.

Here, we all thought the motion detectors served as a way to deter theft. Instead, the real reason behind the motion detectors is to prevent the very situation that the we have here, namely, the horrible death of a 14 year old that got caught in the BMW central locking system.
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      09-14-2013, 08:00 PM   #33
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Very sad story, but I'm not sure this wasn't a malfunction, at least my car doesn't work this way, thogh maybe that's not the case with older models of the 3 series. I just tried this in my F30 335i and was able to unlock the door (tried in both driver's seat and rear passenger seat) by simply pulling the door handle twice. The alarm did go off, but i wasn't trapped in the car. I also tried pressing the central locking button on the console, but that did not unlock any of the doors.

The following is stated in the manual for the F30 sedan:

Opening and closing: from the inside
Locking and unlocking
Pressing the buttons locks and unlocks the doors and the trunk lid when the front doors are closed, but they are not secured against theft.
The fuel filler flap remains unlocked.
Unlocking and opening
▷ Either unlock the doors together using the button for the central locking system and then pull the door handle above the armrest or
▷ Pull the door opener twice individually on each door: the first time unlocks the door, the second time opens it.

A few years ago I did get "trapped" in an E90 whose central locking system was malfunctioning and had to crawl through an open window (car was running so windows could be opened, not the same situation as what happened in the the story) to exit the vehicle. The central locking button did nothing even with the car running and the door handles also didn't unlock the doors even when pulled multiple times, so I can only imagine what this girl went through. Wish she could have broken a window or got the attention of someone outside the car to help her.
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      09-14-2013, 09:28 PM   #34
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Tried this on mine tonight with my wife in the car, she was able to pull the door handle as normal and open it, the alarm went off, but it did open. Not sure if something changed on MY14, but it opened.
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      09-14-2013, 09:54 PM   #35
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"BMW killed girl" .... tabloid journalism....
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      09-14-2013, 10:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7 View Post
Lol, I see. So that "stupid" little 14 year old forgot to read the manual and done cooked herself in a car---heaven forbid we mention it was a BMW.

No, I rather subscribe to the truth. The BMW did it. And a beautiful little girl was killed at the hands of a design decision.
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Well, I am a systems guy. If you note, I am blaming a "thing" and not a person.
No, she was killed by the person who locked the doors with her inside.

Furthermore, what 14 year old does not have a smartphone today?
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      09-14-2013, 10:35 PM   #37
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No. The door unlock button is disabled when car locked by fob, key, or comfort access.
I tired it today. My wife was able to unlock the door and get out after I used the key fob to lock the car.

I don't have comfort access btw.
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      09-14-2013, 10:41 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by davjo69 View Post
Very sad story, but I'm not sure this wasn't a malfunction, at least my car doesn't work this way, thogh maybe that's not the case with older models of the 3 series. I just tried this in my F30 335i and was able to unlock the door (tried in both driver's seat and rear passenger seat) by simply pulling the door handle twice. The alarm did go off, but i wasn't trapped in the car. I also tried pressing the central locking button on the console, but that did not unlock any of the doors.

The following is stated in the manual for the F30 sedan:

Opening and closing: from the inside
Locking and unlocking
Pressing the buttons locks and unlocks the doors and the trunk lid when the front doors are closed, but they are not secured against theft.
The fuel filler flap remains unlocked.
Unlocking and opening
▷ Either unlock the doors together using the button for the central locking system and then pull the door handle above the armrest or
▷ Pull the door opener twice individually on each door: the first time unlocks the door, the second time opens it.
Did you lock it from outside? The manual also says this:

Locking from the outside
Do not lock the vehicle from the outside if
there are people in it, as the vehicle cannot be
unlocked from inside without special knowledge.
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      09-14-2013, 11:05 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollandog
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Originally Posted by BMWrules7 View Post
No. The door unlock button is disabled when car locked by fob, key, or comfort access.
I tired it today. My wife was able to unlock the door and get out after I used the key fob to lock the car.

I don't have comfort access btw.
Yes. I believe there is a timeout introduced in 2010 on some models. Have your wife lock you in the car. If you have CA, make sure you don't have a key in the vehicle. Have your wife lock the car from 50 feet away.

Pretend you are asleep for 15 minutes and don't move! Next, try pulling the door handles to exit. The car should not open.
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      09-14-2013, 11:15 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rallybull
"BMW killed girl" .... tabloid journalism....
This is not a tabloid and I am not a journalist.

I was, however, trying to get a discussion going about this case. Several people made some great points.

If you think about all of careful review that takes place in our legal system before we put a serial killer to death, don't you think we should at least give that same level of care when designing consumer products?

Do you think a 14 year old girl should have received the death penalty when the driver of the car she was in depressed the blue and white logo on the key fob?
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      09-15-2013, 12:16 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kowboi
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Originally Posted by BMWrules7
Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23
WTF? Uh, something here just doesn't add up, a 14 year old can't figure out how to exit a locked car? To the point of death? Your link is broken BTW.
No. That's how BMWs work. Go try it. Have someone lock you in the vehicle with the fob and windows rolled up. You ain't getting out without breaking windows.

It's called central locking and is an anti theft feature.
Unless you press the door unlock button!
No. The door unlock button is disabled when car locked by fob, key, or comfort access.
Nope. Worked on my Canadian car.
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      09-15-2013, 01:35 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elistan View Post
Did you lock it from outside? The manual also says this:

Locking from the outside
Do not lock the vehicle from the outside if
there are people in it, as the vehicle cannot be
unlocked from inside without special knowledge.
Yes, I had my partner lock it from the outside with the fob since other posts had commented that this may be a design feature for security. I highly doubt that BMW would intentionally engineer the vehicle in such a manner that people inside the car could be left with no way to exit if the vehicle is locked from the outside, and it turns out, barring a potential malfunction, that this is not possible, as long as the occupants know that the door handle has to be pulled twice to open the door. That last part is the "special knowledge" the manual references in the event the occupants are not used to this standard of unlocking a BMW since it differs from most other vehicle makes.

I also agree with the other posts that something is afoul with what happened to this girl, the story just does not make sense as reported since the girl could have done many things to get out of the car even if she was truly "trapped" inside by a faulty locking system.
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      09-15-2013, 08:57 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by DavJo69
Yes, I had my partner lock it from the outside....
Well that settles it then. Your extensive knowledge on the central locking system of 15 year old cars combined with your objective experimentation on modern vehicles solves the mystery.

Never-mind the BMW published documentation that contradicts your statements and let's forget about the testimony of people that actually drove the vehicle in question when new. Instead, we will all roll over and play dead whilst we take your word for it.
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      09-15-2013, 09:01 AM   #44
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Update in progress.
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