BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos
 
GT Haus
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-14-2013, 12:24 AM   #23
GreenLantern
First Lieutenant
GreenLantern's Avatar
United_States
5
Rep
357
Posts

 
Drives: Looking for a low mileage 1M
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: SoCal & NorCal

iTrader: (0)

As was said already, the F40 and 288 GTO were FI...
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2013, 12:18 PM   #24
F32
Banned
7
Rep
688
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: SF

iTrader: (0)

Sad.

Watch in a few years time, the aftermarket will be providing "NA kits" for cars, removing all turbo-related parts allowing you to experience the pleasure of a naturally aspirated engine.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2013, 12:20 PM   #25
IEDEI
A change of speed, a change of style
IEDEI's Avatar
United_States
40
Rep
3,004
Posts

 
Drives: L'Orange 1M
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC

iTrader: (0)

turbo > non-turbo

i will take the adrenaline rush of BOOST in trade for a bit of turbo lag. No N/A engine can provide the thrill of boost! TURBO FOREVER!
__________________
BMW 1M (VO, #374/740)
Audi TT 225 quattro coupe

BMW 135is (sold)

Appreciate 0
      09-14-2013, 01:03 PM   #26
F32
Banned
7
Rep
688
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: SF

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
turbo > non-turbo

i will take the adrenaline rush of BOOST in trade for a bit of turbo lag. No N/A engine can provide the thrill of boost! TURBO FOREVER!
I can't tell if you're trolling or 15 years old.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2013, 01:07 PM   #27
PopsnBurbles
First Lieutenant
United_States
5
Rep
397
Posts

 
Drives: 135is :) 192/586
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: LA, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32 View Post
I can't tell if you're trolling or 15 years old.
Well, you can't deny the nice rush a FI provides + the spooling/whining noise. However, I can't also deny the purity and rawness of an NA provides.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2013, 01:08 PM   #28
IEDEI
A change of speed, a change of style
IEDEI's Avatar
United_States
40
Rep
3,004
Posts

 
Drives: L'Orange 1M
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F32 View Post
I can't tell if you're trolling or 15 years old.
not trolling. there's nothing to be ashamed about with loving Turbo. hell, BMW brought Turbo technology to production cars. The last 'non-turbo' car i owned was when i was 16 (1st generation SE-R)----since then i've had all turbos and have enjoyed all of them.

N/A is great, but doesn't give you the adrenaline rush Turbo does, IMO!
__________________
BMW 1M (VO, #374/740)
Audi TT 225 quattro coupe

BMW 135is (sold)


Last edited by IEDEI; 09-14-2013 at 01:24 PM.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2013, 02:06 PM   #29
BlackJetE90
Colonel
37
Rep
2,521
Posts

 
Drives: E90
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: e90

iTrader: (0)

Ferrari will do it correctly. They will use a flat plane crank along with forced induction. This will allow them to get high revs with their switch over to FI.

Flat plane crank is what allows the MP4-12c to rev to 8,500.

Otherwise I much prefer NA. I would take GT3 over Turbo, Boss 302 over GT500, Z06 over ZR1, etc... Now if BMW would just offer a NA track focused M4.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2013, 02:10 PM   #30
BlackJetE90
Colonel
37
Rep
2,521
Posts

 
Drives: E90
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: e90

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 328pride View Post
Well, you can't deny the nice rush a FI provides + the spooling/whining noise. However, I can't also deny the purity and rawness of an NA provides.
What sells me on NA every time is power delivery. My cars see the track many times a year, so I much prefer the predictable power of NA. Also NA reliability, 80-90% of track days are in the hot portion of the year. FI is great for street cars no question.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2013, 05:19 PM   #31
CSanto
Lieutenant Colonel
35
Rep
1,897
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New York

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
I've gone through a few modern turbo cars. Yup, there's still turbo lag.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2013, 11:44 PM   #32
Koldun
Banned
6
Rep
659
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

I don't really care what they are planning, they achieved perfection with the 458 as far as I'm concerned. I only hope I'll be able to afford one before they become super rare collector's pieces.
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2013, 12:03 AM   #33
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
82
Rep
4,696
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLantern View Post
As was said already, the F40 and 288 GTO were FI...
Exactly, I don't get why we are complaining about that. FI isn't something of the future. It's older than you think....

F40 is in my book more or less THE greatest supercar ever.




And when I watched this my number 1 greatest car ever (Macca F1) went down to 2nd place



Porsche 956 , fastest car on the Nordschleife ever also had 2 turbos on it.



Mid 70s 320 turbo:




Etc etc.

Cheers
Robin
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2013, 12:11 AM   #34
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
82
Rep
4,696
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

And off course I'm totally mad about any M3 CSL, my favourite new car is a 458. Don't get me wrong. The 997/991 GT3's are marvelous.. etc.

Cheers
Robin
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2013, 12:18 AM   #35
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
82
Rep
4,696
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

About turbo lag. Flooring it at 2000rpm in my current car, there might be a supertiny hesitation but that's about it, it blasts away like there's no tomorrow.

My former E90 M3 6MT doing the same thing at 3000 rpm, no lag, but the accellerationblast just isn't there...

I know it's also about gearing, revs, weight(very important that one)

We're talking Ferrari here , masters in building engines. The world's best engines.

No worries.

Well I have one thing to worry about.

I can't afford a Ferrari

Cheers
Robin
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2013, 10:43 AM   #36
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,452
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Baron View Post
I'm all for FI. I drive an NA X5 now and if someone showed up to my house with a FI 911 Turbo(S) or GT2(RS) I would punch them in the face and steal their car without hesitation.
What nonesense. Comparing a SUV with a sportscar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I've driven the 997.2 turbo S... didn't feel turbo lag or any issues with throttle response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSanto View Post
+1...Everyones all like "boo turbo lag" without ever actually driving a modern turbo'd car. This isn't a Saab 95.
You are saying 911 Turbo is as responsive as 911 GT3?


Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
turbo > non-turbo

i will take the adrenaline rush of BOOST in trade for a bit of turbo lag. No N/A engine can provide the thrill of boost! TURBO FOREVER!
And no turbo can provide the sound and throttle response of H/R NA engines, while staying street legal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Ferrari will do it correctly. They will use a flat plane crank along with forced induction. This will allow them to get high revs with their switch over to FI.

Flat plane crank is what allows the MP4-12c to rev to 8,500.

Otherwise I much prefer NA. I would take GT3 over Turbo, Boss 302 over GT500, Z06 over ZR1, etc... Now if BMW would just offer a NA track focused M4.
How does S65 rev up to 8,400 RPM from factory without flat plane crank? It has quite little to do with the crank type.



I don't doubt the Ferrari's engine will be nice, but if they are not able to make it better than NA engines, they will not build FI engines. THe thing is they have been working on new FI engines for some years already, with the first ones found in the new Maserati Quattroporte (3.8l V8) and Ghibli (3.0l V6). They sound very good. Not to compare with normal turbo engines just as you can't compare normal naturally aspirtated engine with those of high-performance cars.

The worst thing of FI engines is not lag or sound thought, but running out of boost at high RPM. I'm sure Ferrari won't have this issue.
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2013, 11:01 AM   #37
yousefnjr
Captain
10
Rep
625
Posts

 
Drives: 2006 Z4MR
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koldun View Post
I don't really care what they are planning, they achieved perfection with the 458 as far as I'm concerned.
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2013, 12:17 PM   #38
Timujin
First Lieutenant
Timujin's Avatar
4
Rep
361
Posts

 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: California

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2011 BMW 335d  [3.75]
variable valve timing, advanced ECUs, turbo(s) AND dual clutch gearboxes will make the next gen Fiats really fun. They gotta do something about the GTRs kicking arse.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2013, 01:47 PM   #39
BlackJetE90
Colonel
37
Rep
2,521
Posts

 
Drives: E90
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: e90

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
How does S65 rev up to 8,400 RPM from factory without flat plane crank? It has quite little to do with the crank type.
Here is a clue...is the S65 forced induction? I never said a crossplane crank NA motor can't rev high. You would have to be pretty stupid to not know that.

The turbo V8 in MP4-12C would not rev to 8,500 if it wasn't a flat plane crank. Lower rotating mass allowing higher maximum revs.

I have seen some cool LS V8 flat plane crank conversions revving over 9,000 rpms. Flat plane cranks are also the reason why exotics sound the way they do.

Last edited by BlackJetE90; 09-15-2013 at 04:49 PM.
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2013, 02:00 AM   #40
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
82
Rep
4,696
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Here is a clue...is the S65 forced induction? I never said a crossplane crank NA motor can't rev high. You would have to be pretty stupid to not know that.

The turbo V8 in MP4-12C would not rev to 8,500 if it wasn't a flat plane crank. Lower rotating mass allowing higher maximum revs.

I have seen some cool LS V8 flat plane crank conversions revving over 9,000 rpms. Flat plane cranks are also the reason why exotics sound the way they do.
Exactly.

But imo: It's the whole package that counts. The engine is one of them.
Take a look at the F40 again.

Not running out of boost @ 8500rpm is possible for a FI engine, but the price is high. And we're talking Ferrari here.

Not running out of hp beyond 6000/ 7000rpm for a NA engine is possible too, but it has its price(///M , Porsche, Ferrari) because any normal streetcar from VW to Toyota with a normal NA engine sucks beyond 6000 or sometimes even 5000rpm.

The newer turbo engines of those normal streetcars are beyond their limits too at 6000/6500 but they still deliver power at midrange. Except for the 114i BMW engine that's the worst engine BMW ever created imo.

Anyway. It's about engineering and engineering involves a lot of money.

That's one of the reasons why a 458/F12/Aventador/GT3RS is a tad more expensive than a Toyota

Ferrari will come with an excellent FI engine I'm shure.

RUF already did that too in 1987 with the CTR, fastest roadcar back then. Biturbo. Turbolag. But a blast

Cheers
Robin
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2013, 08:45 AM   #41
shah269
Major
United_States
81
Rep
1,018
Posts

 
Drives: 2009
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Eh the STI rice boys will love it!
HUGE blow off vavles! pppppppppppppppppsssssssssssssssssssssssst ;-)
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2013, 09:18 AM   #42
See5
Real Goon
See5's Avatar
United_States
13
Rep
388
Posts

 
Drives: Nothing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (0)

I'd much rather have an N/A engine than turbo in something like a Ferrari but if they feel like they can get the same type of sound and excitement they get with their N/A motors, doesn't sound like a bad idea.
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2013, 09:48 AM   #43
MisterSkiMask
Lieutenant Colonel
36
Rep
1,940
Posts

 
Drives: I Can not say
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: you must not know

iTrader: (0)

Very sad. I so much prefer a good NA engine, I had a 335i did not love the power delivery, I had an e60 M5, loved the power delivery (just two examples, I know, not fair).
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:28 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST