M3 Sedan - SMG? - M3 Forum 2010 2009 BMW M3 2008 BMW M3 BMW E90 M3 E92

avlnch · 10-09-2007, 09:20 PM

Is SMG available for the M3 Sedan? I have only seen pictures of it in manual, but I know the coupe has the option for SMG... ...

Thanks,

Aaron

GregW / Oregon · 10-10-2007, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avlnch

Is SMG available for the M3 Sedan? I have only seen pictures of it in manual, but I know the coupe has the option for SMG... ...

Thanks,

Aaron

No, but Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) will be available at some point for both (Spring '08?)--should be better than SMG.

vantage · 10-10-2007, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) will be available at some point for both (Spring '08?)--should be better than SMG.

Not sure about that. I've been on a track in an M5 with SMG....i LOVE the kick up your ass you get when you shift up!! It's absolutely brutal and I dont think much else could compare to it. Just wouldn't be the same if it was smooth shifted...

(although i do agree the DCT would be better for everyday driving)

avlnch · 10-10-2007, 02:02 AM

Is DCT superior to SMGII?

DCT is meant for a smoother shift, right? So does that mean a slower shift?

michal12 · 10-10-2007, 04:59 AM

DCT is a different league. It is a dual clutch which means fastest shifting possible - close to 0 shifting time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by avlnch

Is DCT superior to SMGII?

DCT is meant for a smoother shift, right? So does that mean a slower shift?

mkoesel · 10-10-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vantage

Not sure about that. I've been on a track in an M5 with SMG....i LOVE the kick up your ass you get when you shift up!! It's absolutely brutal and I dont think much else could compare to it. Just wouldn't be the same if it was smooth shifted...

I'm sure there will be modes for the DCT box that allow that type of aggressive shifting for when you want it.

The M-DCT box will likely be superior to SMG III in just about every way. The idea is to evolve the SMG concept by adding a second input shaft (and clutch) thereby drastically lowering shift times. Aside from that, they are very similar in concept and mechanics.

Just_me · 10-10-2007, 10:30 AM

Downshifts are slow with DSG. Hopefully BMW will fix it.

swamp2 · 10-10-2007, 01:58 PM

From what I understand DSG and hence M-DCT downshifts CAN be slow if the system has not correctly anticipated the need for a lower gear. If it has, which it can do most often, the downshifts will be precisely the same speed as the upshifts. VW quotes 8 ms for DSG but a more realistic number from other sources is about .02-.03 s. This time is also likely the ENTIRE shift with both clutch operations. As we know SMG quotes times of .065 or .08 s are BS, including both clutch operations the actual time is closer to .20-.25 s

DSG and hence again M-DCT is inherently smooth shifting. I doubt they will provide a mode to cripple the system by making it more like SMG. I agree there is some raw appeal of the neck snap of SMG but fast=smooth=more performance=less wear with DSG/M-DCT. Along with the entire nature of the new M3 we are going to have to acccept that more raw/visceral is not faster nor better in many cases.

13eastie · 10-10-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swamp2

From what I understand DSG and hence M-DCT downshifts CAN be slow if the system has not correctly anticipated the need for a lower gear. If it has, which it can do most often, the downshifts will be precisely the same speed as the upshifts. VW quotes 8 ms for DSG but a more realistic number from other sources is about .02-.03 s. This time is also likely the ENTIRE shift with both clutch operations. As we know SMG quotes times of .065 or .08 s are BS, including both clutch operations the actual time is closer to .20-.25 s

DSG and hence again M-DCT is inherently smooth shifting. I doubt they will provide a mode to cripple the system by making it more like SMG. I agree there is some raw appeal of the neck snap of SMG but fast=smooth=more performance=less wear with DSG/M-DCT. Along with the entire nature of the new M3 we are going to have to acccept that more raw/visceral is not faster nor better in many cases.

There is also the issue that block down-shifts e.g. 4-2 require both input shafts to be enaged since changes involving only a single shaft are not possible.

Anyway, to answer the OP's question, the 6MT is currently the only available option.

The CSL · 10-10-2007, 02:17 PM

If you want a kick, get the MT and add it with your hand and clutch foot.

vantage · 10-10-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The CSL

If you want a kick, get the MT and add it with your hand and clutch foot.

haha good point, and i guess if i did get an M3 i would probably get the manual.....but i kinda prefer the paddles in cars over 500 hp. i guess swamp2 is right...M3 would be less "visceral" than we would hope for - M5 for me!!

swamp2 · 10-11-2007, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13eastie

There is also the issue that block down-shifts e.g. 4-2 require both input shafts to be enaged since changes involving only a single shaft are not possible.

Anyway, to answer the OP's question, the 6MT is currently the only available option.

If you are decelerating on a track you could go 4->3->2 in which case the transmission computer would likely predict ("guess") your next move and each shift would each be preselected and quite quick. If you wanted a freeway cruising speed 4->2 direct it would probably be a bit slower but not terrible - worst case scenario somthing like a 4->3 in an SMG (or maybe a bit worse than that).

avlnch · 10-11-2007, 11:32 PM

A little off topic but do the M3's have heads-up display?

GregW / Oregon · 10-11-2007, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avlnch

A little off topic but do the M3's have heads-up display?

Negatron. No option yet.

Stahlgrau · 10-12-2007, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I'm sure there will be modes for the DCT box that allow that type of aggressive shifting for when you want it.

The M-DCT box will likely be superior to SMG III in just about every way. The idea is to evolve the SMG concept by adding a second input shaft (and clutch) thereby drastically lowering shift times. Aside from that, they are very similar in concept and mechanics.

"Drastically" lowering shift times? I don't know, the SMG II in my E46 M3 is pretty damn fast. I don't know how drastic it could be.

mkoesel · 10-12-2007, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stahlgrau

"Drastically" lowering shift times? I don't know, the SMG II in my E46 M3 is pretty damn fast. I don't know how drastic it could be.

See swamp's post above. If we estimate M-DCT to be appoximately like VAG's DSG, it will shift about 10 times as fast. At least in the ideal case. I would call that drastic.

mesier1111 · 11-07-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vantage

Not sure about that. I've been on a track in an M5 with SMG....i LOVE the kick up your ass you get when you shift up!! It's absolutely brutal and I dont think much else could compare to it. Just wouldn't be the same if it was smooth shifted...

+100000000000

BMW3R · 11-11-2007, 07:51 PM

Do you all really think the DCT or SMG will be available in Spring 2008? I haven't seen anything that would make me believe that this is an option.

mkoesel · 11-12-2007, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMW3R

Do you all really think the DCT or SMG will be available in Spring 2008? I haven't seen anything that would make me believe that this is an option.

I am fairly convinced that M-DCT will make its pulic debut by spring 2008, very likely in Geneva, though it's always possible it could come sooner.

Will it then be available immediately or soon after? No idea. But I would certainly say by fall 2008 (for MY2009).

lucid · 11-24-2007, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I am fairly convinced that M-DCT will make its pulic debut by spring 2008, very likely in Geneva, though it's always possible it could come sooner.

Will it then be available immediately or soon after? No idea. But I would certainly say by fall 2008 (for MY2009).

This is looking like a likely scenario. I get the feeling DCT cars will not be available until early summer--pure speculation based on the fact that we still have not heard a thing about it from BMW or seen spy pics of a car with a DCT lever. If DCT=>early summer, then I might wait for 2-3 more months and buy a 2009 model (I think, generally speaking, one can order next year's model in late August). If they can deliver DCT in Spring, and if #4 spot on the list lets me buy one then, I'll go for it.

swamp2 · 11-24-2007, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucid

This is looking like a likely scenario. I get the feeling DCT cars will not be available until early summer--pure speculation based on the fact that we still have not heard a thing about it from BMW or seen spy pics of a car with a DCT lever. If DCT=>early summer, then I might wait for 2-3 more months and buy a 2009 model (I think, generally speaking, one can order next year's model in late August). If they can deliver DCT in Spring, and if #4 spot on the list lets me buy one then, I'll go for it.

Good discussion here too bad the thread is "SMG..."

I am also concerned to not have seen a DCT spy shot yet. But I also have some reasoning to lead me to believe that this does not mean the system is delayed or won't be available until significantly after we suspect.

All of the hype with masked mules and the debut, in multiple countries is OVER. Getting an interior shot of the DCT in testing, although of interest to serious spy photographers or enthusiasts, just is not that big of a deal. Hence no spy shots. I do think that folks should have at least HEARD the system at the N'ring.

Don't think I could hold out to 09 myself...

lucid · 11-24-2007, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swamp2

Good discussion here too bad the thread is "SMG..."

I am also concerned to not have seen a DCT spy shot yet. But I also have some reasoning to lead me to believe that this does not mean the system is delayed or won't be available until significantly after we suspect.

All of the hype with masked mules and the debut, in multiple countries is OVER. Getting an interior shot of the DCT in testing, although of interest to serious spy photographers or enthusiasts, just is not that big of a deal. Hence no spy shots. I do think that folks should have at least HEARD the system at the N'ring.

Don't think I could hold out to 09 myself...

True, people are not as curios as they were before. But one would have thought someone would have leaked something by now though.

That said, I am sure there are DCT cars running around. If you remember my other post on this, a German member spoke to a Getrag person who drove one and told him it is fantastic.

Actually, I guess technically speaking, nothing has been "delayed" since they never officially announced anything about DCT to begin with, right?

10-09-2007, 09:20 PM	#1
avlnch New Member Drives: 06 RangeRover s/c Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 21 iTrader: (0)	M3 Sedan - SMG? Is SMG available for the M3 Sedan? I have only seen pictures of it in manual, but I know the coupe has the option for SMG... ... Thanks, Aaron

10-10-2007, 01:58 PM	#8
swamp2 Major General Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: San Diego, CA USA Posts: 6,509 iTrader: (1)	Rough, slow? From what I understand DSG and hence M-DCT downshifts CAN be slow if the system has not correctly anticipated the need for a lower gear. If it has, which it can do most often, the downshifts will be precisely the same speed as the upshifts. VW quotes 8 ms for DSG but a more realistic number from other sources is about .02-.03 s. This time is also likely the ENTIRE shift with both clutch operations. As we know SMG quotes times of .065 or .08 s are BS, including both clutch operations the actual time is closer to .20-.25 s DSG and hence again M-DCT is inherently smooth shifting. I doubt they will provide a mode to cripple the system by making it more like SMG. I agree there is some raw appeal of the neck snap of SMG but fast=smooth=more performance=less wear with DSG/M-DCT. Along with the entire nature of the new M3 we are going to have to acccept that more raw/visceral is not faster nor better in many cases.

10-10-2007, 02:17 PM	#10
The CSL For the love of ///M3 Drives: Peugeot 306 XSI 16v Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Plymouth, UK Posts: 660 iTrader: (0)	If you want a kick, get the MT and add it with your hand and clutch foot. __________________ www.themotorforum.co.uk

11-11-2007, 07:51 PM	#18
BMW3R Bimmer User Drives: 2008 BMW M3 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 438 iTrader: (0) View BMW3R's Garage	Do you all really think the DCT or SMG will be available in Spring 2008? I haven't seen anything that would make me believe that this is an option. __________________ E90 M3 Sedan \| M-DCT \| Jet Black \| Black Leather \| Blue Titanium Trim \| Premium \| Technology \| Enhanced Sound \| 19's \| Moonroof \| Cold weather \| iPod \| HD Radio \| Sirius

10-10-2007, 02:02 AM	#4
avlnch New Member Drives: 06 RangeRover s/c Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 21 iTrader: (0)	Is DCT superior to SMGII? DCT is meant for a smoother shift, right? So does that mean a slower shift?

10-10-2007, 10:30 AM	#7
Just_me Lieutenant Drives: RWD Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 510 iTrader: (0)	Downshifts are slow with DSG. Hopefully BMW will fix it.

10-11-2007, 11:32 PM	#13
avlnch New Member Drives: 06 RangeRover s/c Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 21 iTrader: (0)	A little off topic but do the M3's have heads-up display?