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      09-14-2013, 10:33 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
The argument always comes up, "the BMW engineers know better so leave everything alone"... if we'd live by that nobody would mod anything.

Anyway, if you are not concerned that's great. If somebody is, let them make changes, I don't see the issue you are having.
I'm with you on people being personally accountable for their decisions but you have to be mindful of your e-tone and the conclusions you come to. It comes down to the community and maintaining credibility. Look at E46Fanatics and the road they went down...wasn't good.

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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
The argument always comes up, "the BMW engineers know better so leave everything alone"... if we'd live by that nobody would mod anything.

Anyway, if you are not concerned that's great. If somebody is, let them make changes, I don't see the issue you are having.
Agree...that statement is my opinion. I don't think I've made an absolute statement that nothing should ever be modded. If I did, I was wrong. My point is you should understand the consequences...you gain something...you give up something. Most focus on what you gain...some don't understand what you are giving up. Trust me...I've learned this the very hard way.

I still mod my car. For example I put in some GC camber plates. I gained increased performance, I lost some comfort. I understood that the GC plates can cause some noise and I was willing to make that trade off.
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      09-14-2013, 10:37 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I'm not willing to watch the observations of one person become the truth for all. BMRLVR has come to the same conclusion that many others have come to, his knowledge was never the issue. But he did not consider that there are other people that drive M3s that do not post here or participate on internet forums. Shocking, I know. What you'll find (based on seeing E9X M3s at the track and talking to dealerships) is that most people's engines don't blow up or show signs of excessive rod bearing wear. Are there cases of this? Of course but you have to consider the application for which the car was designed for.
Most people also don't send our their oil for analysis, nor crack their bearing caps to know if they do or don't have a problem. So there's even less data on that end of analysis, than ours.

Quote:
I think I usually am pretty laid back but not in this case. This is OUR community here online. We should all be here to share facts and discuss opinions. BMRLVR is NOT the only one this is targeted at but to all who shut people down and don't take the time to read responses. Usually not a big deal but there are people out there that are considering dishing out $000's to fix a perceived problem based on a couple of people's opinions that the S65 is an engine with this inherent issue in 100% of the production run and their assertion that they know more than BMW engineers.
The problem you find is bucking 60, maybe 80 years of accepted best practice in the automotive and race engine industry.

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I do know this fact, I'll trust BMW engineers more than me and anyone on this forum. What has NEVER been answered (or at least I've never seen the explanation) is WHY? WHY did BMW make the clearances so tight? Before I put on an aftermarket modification the question that has to be answered in my mind if why is this part less than optimal for my application? Because you are sacrificing something since BMW optimizes parts to suit a number of attributes (cost, comfort, performance, reliability, etc.).
This has been answered, but maybe lost by now. According to Clevite, engine manufacturers set these tight tolerances for two reasons: 1) quiet engine operation, 2) squeeze a little extra power out of the engine. But in the same white paper, Clevite also says the tight tolerance must be mated with a thiner oil.
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      09-14-2013, 10:42 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
Most people also don't send our their oil for analysis, nor crack their bearing caps to know if they do or don't have a problem. So there's even less data on that end of analysis, than ours.



The problem you find is bucking 60, maybe 80 years of accepted best practice in the automotive and race engine industry.



This has been answered, but maybe lost by now. According to Clevite, engine manufacturers set these tight tolerances for two reasons: 1) quiet engine operation, 2) squeeze a little extra power out of the engine. But in the same white paper, Clevite also says the tight tolerance must be mated with a thiner oil.
Great post!

I can understand the skepticism though, I've been there myself, but it appears just about every motor that has been opened up for one reason or another has some bearing wear that is out of the norm based on what the experts here say. It's hard to deny all the mounting evidence.
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      09-14-2013, 10:42 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I'm not willing to watch the observations of one person become the truth for all. BMRLVR has come to the same conclusion that many others have come to, his knowledge was never the issue. But he did not consider that there are other people that drive M3s that do not post here or participate on internet forums. Shocking, I know. What you'll find (based on seeing E9X M3s at the track and talking to dealerships) is that most people's engines don't blow up or show signs of excessive rod bearing wear. Are there cases of this? Of course but you have to consider the application for which the car was designed for.

I think I usually am pretty laid back but not in this case. This is OUR community here online. We should all be here to share facts and discuss opinions. BMRLVR is NOT the only one this is targeted at but to all who shut people down and don't take the time to read responses. Usually not a big deal but there are people out there that are considering dishing out $000's to fix a perceived problem based on a couple of people's opinions that the S65 is an engine with this inherent issue in 100% of the production run and their assertion that they know more than BMW engineers.

I do know this fact, I'll trust BMW engineers more than me and anyone on this forum. What has NEVER been answered (or at least I've never seen the explanation) is WHY? WHY did BMW make the clearances so tight? Before I put on an aftermarket modification the question that has to be answered in my mind if why is this part less than optimal for my application? Because you are sacrificing something since BMW optimizes parts to suit a number of attributes (cost, comfort, performance, reliability, etc.).
I generally share your viewpoint but keep in mind that everyone is entitled to draw their own conclusions from what they read. If someone wants to tear their engine apart and spend $5K+ to get critical parts worked on, all the while relying on what they read on an internet forum, that's their choice. I certainly can't deny that I'd be curious to see the outcome of such an endeavor even though I would not undertake it myself. Perhaps the issue that is being overlooked here and what is really the problem is that the discussion should be kept civil. The whole "shut up" exchange just works to draw attention away from the points that you and the others are trying to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
The argument always comes up, "the BMW engineers know better so leave everything alone"... if we'd live by that nobody would mod anything.
BMW engineers develop the cars with many aspects in mind, as bigjae1976 pointed out. When we mod something, we usually give up something else (e.g., comfort, reliability, longevity, etc.). So I agree that BMW engineers designed the best that they could under the financial constraints for the project and in trying to blend a number of aspects together.
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      09-14-2013, 03:09 PM   #71
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I am not a mechanic but I find it hard to believe that guys in this forum who live and breath engine stuff haven't yet figured out a way to check the condition of these f'ing bearings without having to foot a $2000+ bill.

After countless posts on this topic I did not see one person say "I bothered to pull out and inspect my bearings at XXX miles on the odo and found that they were perfectly allright". Which tells me that we really don't know as much as we think about this problem at all.
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      09-14-2013, 03:53 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
What?
I think he is just bummed, concerned, pissed off and frustrated that this problem exists and it has to be on his mind and that it isn't something that is easily but the to the back of one's mind. Hmmm, maybe that is just my thinking.

I asked an SA if he has heard anything about this. His response was that he was getting a lot of calls about having the bearing checked (add me to that inquiry). When I asked how much, he said $1,500.00 to have it checked only.

TOP_GEAR is probably pissed like I am in that 1.5K to check it is about a few hundred short of just replacing the bearings and still knowing it won't fix the problem and worse. It would be someone's luck to have them replaced now, just to find one of the better solutions require the work to be done again.
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      09-14-2013, 05:00 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I'm not willing to watch the observations of one person become the truth for all. BMRLVR has come to the same conclusion that many others have come to, his knowledge was never the issue. But he did not consider that there are other people that drive M3s that do not post here or participate on internet forums. Shocking, I know. What you'll find (based on seeing E9X M3s at the track and talking to dealerships) is that most people's engines don't blow up or show signs of excessive rod bearing wear. Are there cases of this? Of course but you have to consider the application for which the car was designed for.

I think I usually am pretty laid back but not in this case. This is OUR community here online. We should all be here to share facts and discuss opinions. BMRLVR is NOT the only one this is targeted at but to all who shut people down and don't take the time to read responses. Usually not a big deal but there are people out there that are considering dishing out $000's to fix a perceived problem based on a couple of people's opinions that the S65 is an engine with this inherent issue in 100% of the production run and their assertion that they know more than BMW engineers.

I do know this fact, I'll trust BMW engineers more than me and anyone on this forum. What has NEVER been answered (or at least I've never seen the explanation) is WHY? WHY did BMW make the clearances so tight? Before I put on an aftermarket modification the question that has to be answered in my mind if why is this part less than optimal for my application? Because you are sacrificing something since BMW optimizes parts to suit a number of attributes (cost, comfort, performance, reliability, etc.).
All valid points. I think it was the "shut up" part that was a little strong.
I use to have a ton of faith in BMW engineers, but then the S54's started blowing up and BMW denied it and denied it, blaming the owners for "over reving" when the car was an SMG!!! Now we have engine builders here saying saying the clearances on our engines are below standard clearances. Now Clevite's white papers say if you're going to go tight, then use a thinner oil- which BMW does not recommend.
That's my conclusion so far from all these threads.

.
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      09-14-2013, 06:14 PM   #74
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All valid points. I think it was the "shut up" part that was a little strong.
I couldn't agree more. I am sure majority of us are adults on this forum and irrespective of the posts, it's important to respect others' opinion and equally respectful of one another.

Every single post has its merit and place and is valid in the context of the discussion/argument.

I thoroughly enjoy being a member of this forum because I value everyone's contribution and have received nothing but complements when I have posted.

I think an apology will be appropriate and important for asking a respected fellow poster to "shut up". This will put an end to this unsavoury "bashing" that's now taking place and get on to discuss the real issue at hand.
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      09-14-2013, 07:18 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top_Gear
I am not a mechanic but I find it hard to believe that guys in this forum who live and breath engine stuff haven't yet figured out a way to check the condition of these f'ing bearings without having to foot a $2000+ bill.

After countless posts on this topic I did not see one person say "I bothered to pull out and inspect my bearings at XXX miles on the odo and found that they were perfectly allright". Which tells me that we really don't know as much as we think about this problem at all.
This post don't make a lot of sense to me but I will try and clear it up for you as best I can!

Unfortunately, due to the nature of a journal bearing the only way to positively confirm wear is through disassembly and inspection. Oil sampling and decreasing oil pressure are symptoms but the only way to confirm is disassembly as I have mentioned above!

The main reason I am so adamant on clearances is due to the fact that there is no way to tell if a bearing is failing without invasive surgery. Hopefully this will solidify the importance of ensuring you have proper clearance upon assembly. To be quite honest, a rebuild for me takes more time in measuring and machine work by our machine shop than the assembly of the engine.

On disassembly I measure, remeasure, and then measure a third time to confirm. Then on assembly I do it all over again! We document everything for warranty purposes. We measure main and rod journal diameters, main and rod bearing bore diameters, deck and block for trueness, liner protrusion, crank end play, just to name a few of the more important ones. Our large haul truck engines are worth about $1,000,000 each so my company is pretty adamant about documentation. Once the paper documentation is taken it is then entered into SAP and stays there attached to the engine ID
along with oil analysis reports, service history, engine hours, repair history, fault code history...... ETC.
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      09-14-2013, 09:56 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
... there is no way to tell if a bearing is failing without invasive surgery
My point exactly. You need to pay a steep price to figure out if you even have a problem at all! The "bearing replacement" fix and the "change to thinner oil" fix don't really fix the problem permanently. Machining the crank is what you have been recommending but at $5K it equals the cost of 2 bearing replacements and even though it makes logical sense to reduce the diameter of the crank it's not yet proven that this type of fix is in reality risk-free.
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      09-14-2013, 10:58 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top_Gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
... there is no way to tell if a bearing is failing without invasive surgery
My point exactly. You need to pay a steep price to figure out if you even have a problem at all! The "bearing replacement" fix and the "change to thinner oil" fix don't really fix the problem permanently. Machining the crank is what you have been recommending but at $5K it equals the cost of 2 bearing replacements and even though it makes logical sense to reduce the diameter of the crank it's not yet proven that this type of fix is in reality risk-free.
Proper clearance will fix the problem, there is no doubt about that! There is more risk to replacing bearing shells without measuring everything than having the crank ground. When replacing bearings only without measuring, there is always the risk one or more of the bearings may end up too tight and cause much bigger issues.
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      09-15-2013, 12:33 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top_Gear View Post
My point exactly. You need to pay a steep price to figure out if you even have a problem at all! The "bearing replacement" fix and the "change to thinner oil" fix don't really fix the problem permanently. Machining the crank is what you have been recommending but at $5K it equals the cost of 2 bearing replacements and even though it makes logical sense to reduce the diameter of the crank it's not yet proven that this type of fix is in reality risk-free.
Let me know what risks you're concerned about, and I'll see if one of us can answer the question. Below I'll address the two most common ones I've seen people ask.

The concensus to doing this as maintenance seems to be 60,000 miles. So you are right, for the price of two bearing swaps, you could get your crank ground and be done with the problem. Replacements every 60,000 miles and you can last up to 180,000 before the next replacement is needed. But for the guys who don't replace the bearings at all, I think you're going to find very few engines making it up to 150,000 miles, and I have a feeling by 120,000 miles, engines will start failing in strong numbers. The cost of that engine failure could be total engine replacement ($20k), but the cost of grinding the cranks and rebuilding will be about $5,500 - $6,000.

So what are the risks? I think most people mention the risk of something else going wrong, and they most often worry about the loss of oil pressure due to extra bearing clearance. I don't know how much pressure you would lose, but it's hard for me to imagine you'll even lose 2-3 PSI by allowing an extra 0.0015 inch of clearance. Our oil pump is a variable pressure pump with pressure relief valve. So even if you lose 2-3 PSI due to extra bearing clearance, your oil pump will automatically pick up the slack to maintain proper pressure. So to me, that's no risk at all.

The other risk is finding a shop to build the engine and resize the crank journals. Many shops can do this. If you don't know a BMW master mechanic, go buddy up with one. If you don't mind pulling the motor yourself or having a local shop do it and shipping it to California, I'll be happy to arrange with some of the shops here in California to do the build for you and ship back the motor. I've managed many engine builds and would be happy to oversee the project. I'm managing three builds right now (BMW + VW), the third being a BMW stroker, and a fourth BMW stroker coming next year. Another option is to send the cranks out here, we'll get them reground and rebalanced and send them back.

Top Gear, I'll be in your area next Friday and Saturday. If you wanted to get together and have a chat, I'll be happy to make some time. I'll even bring a few sets of bearings for you to see and get a hands on feel for the issue.
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      09-15-2013, 02:01 AM   #79
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Top Gear, I'll be in your area next Friday and Saturday. If you wanted to get together and have a chat, I'll be happy to make some time. I'll even bring a few sets of bearings for you to see and get a hands on feel for the issue.
Top notch service. This goes to show how helpful people on this forum are. All pessimists and bashers, take a note of this.
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      09-15-2013, 05:21 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
Let me know what risks you're concerned about, and I'll see if one of us can answer the question. Below I'll address the two most common ones I've seen people ask.

The concensus to doing this as maintenance seems to be 60,000 miles. So you are right, for the price of two bearing swaps, you could get your crank ground and be done with the problem. Replacements every 60,000 miles and you can last up to 180,000 before the next replacement is needed. But for the guys who don't replace the bearings at all, I think you're going to find very few engines making it up to 150,000 miles, and I have a feeling by 120,000 miles, engines will start failing in strong numbers. The cost of that engine failure could be total engine replacement ($20k), but the cost of grinding the cranks and rebuilding will be about $5,500 - $6,000.

So what are the risks? I think most people mention the risk of something else going wrong, and they most often worry about the loss of oil pressure due to extra bearing clearance. I don't know how much pressure you would lose, but it's hard for me to imagine you'll even lose 2-3 PSI by allowing an extra 0.0015 inch of clearance. Our oil pump is a variable pressure pump with pressure relief valve. So even if you lose 2-3 PSI due to extra bearing clearance, your oil pump will automatically pick up the slack to maintain proper pressure. So to me, that's no risk at all.

The other risk is finding a shop to build the engine and resize the crank journals. Many shops can do this. If you don't know a BMW master mechanic, go buddy up with one. If you don't mind pulling the motor yourself or having a local shop do it and shipping it to California, I'll be happy to arrange with some of the shops here in California to do the build for you and ship back the motor. I've managed many engine builds and would be happy to oversee the project. I'm managing three builds right now (BMW + VW), the third being a BMW stroker, and a fourth BMW stroker coming next year. Another option is to send the cranks out here, we'll get them reground and rebalanced and send them back.

Top Gear, I'll be in your area next Friday and Saturday. If you wanted to get together and have a chat, I'll be happy to make some time. I'll even bring a few sets of bearings for you to see and get a hands on feel for the issue.

But in reality are there any real risks in running with original bearings and clearances? I change oil every year at 5k miles, so it's pretty clean.

The BMW M engineers know how to build engines and something like getting the clearances wrong is remote after the S54 problems.

Tearing down an engine and having the crank ground for no real reason other than a 'possible' problem further up the line is a risk for something that may never happen.

If by chance it should happen and a bearing spins with damage to the journal. The crank can then be ground for the thicker, -.25mm bearings. Why pay now when you can pay later? (if it happens)

Just my thoughts
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      09-15-2013, 06:06 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Great post!

I can understand the skepticism though, I've been there myself, but it appears just about every motor that has been opened up for one reason or another has some bearing wear that is out of the norm based on what the experts here say. It's hard to deny all the mounting evidence.
was anything done on your vt3 build to stop this problem?
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      09-15-2013, 07:44 AM   #82
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The most interesting part is tuners like Manhart racing, ACS and Hamann have not discussed anything about the bearings. If they had then surely there will be aftermarket bearings for our car. Don't know why that's the case. Are they happy with the clearance or are they ignorant of the obvious

I just wish we can get some proper bearings made. C'mon guys, use your industry influence.
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      09-15-2013, 09:45 AM   #83
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I think I side with Bigjae on all this. Once the car is running and up to temp, the bearings won't wear out, irrespective of Fi or not.

I would put more of the blame onto the fast idle at startup than bearing clearance.

Perhaps a fast idle delete map would be more beneficial in the longrun?
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      09-15-2013, 11:32 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Snow
I think I side with Bigjae on all this. Once the car is running and up to temp, the bearings won't wear out, irrespective of Fi or not.

I would put more of the blame onto the fast idle at startup than bearing clearance.

Perhaps a fast idle delete map would be more beneficial in the longrun?
What do you base this assumption on? Out of all the engines that have been disassembled all have had abnormal wear.

You guys have to face it, these engines are too tight and the oil too heavy..... The worse possible combination you can have...... Tight oil clearance and poor lubrication for the entire warm up period.

Anyhow, I know you are entitled to your opinion, but we are all speaking based on experience! I work on engines that are a million dollars a pop. When we have bearing issues they are always as a result of either tight clearances or a lubrication issue (starvation or cavitation).

Please do yourself a favor and research engine oil viscosity recommendations and clearances as recommended by the bearing manufacturers themselves. This research will show you that BMW is going against the recommendations of the bearing manufacturers that manufacture their bearings!
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      09-15-2013, 11:54 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
Let me know what risks you're concerned about, and I'll see if one of us can answer the question. Below I'll address the two most common ones I've seen people ask.

The concensus to doing this as maintenance seems to be 60,000 miles. So you are right, for the price of two bearing swaps, you could get your crank ground and be done with the problem. Replacements every 60,000 miles and you can last up to 180,000 before the next replacement is needed. But for the guys who don't replace the bearings at all, I think you're going to find very few engines making it up to 150,000 miles, and I have a feeling by 120,000 miles, engines will start failing in strong numbers. The cost of that engine failure could be total engine replacement ($20k), but the cost of grinding the cranks and rebuilding will be about $5,500 - $6,000.

So what are the risks? I think most people mention the risk of something else going wrong, and they most often worry about the loss of oil pressure due to extra bearing clearance. I don't know how much pressure you would lose, but it's hard for me to imagine you'll even lose 2-3 PSI by allowing an extra 0.0015 inch of clearance. Our oil pump is a variable pressure pump with pressure relief valve. So even if you lose 2-3 PSI due to extra bearing clearance, your oil pump will automatically pick up the slack to maintain proper pressure. So to me, that's no risk at all.

The other risk is finding a shop to build the engine and resize the crank journals. Many shops can do this. If you don't know a BMW master mechanic, go buddy up with one. If you don't mind pulling the motor yourself or having a local shop do it and shipping it to California, I'll be happy to arrange with some of the shops here in California to do the build for you and ship back the motor. I've managed many engine builds and would be happy to oversee the project. I'm managing three builds right now (BMW + VW), the third being a BMW stroker, and a fourth BMW stroker coming next year. Another option is to send the cranks out here, we'll get them reground and rebalanced and send them back.

Top Gear, I'll be in your area next Friday and Saturday. If you wanted to get together and have a chat, I'll be happy to make some time. I'll even bring a few sets of bearings for you to see and get a hands on feel for the issue.
Great post. I've always thought of this issue as do I want to get kicked in the left ball...or the right one. I've seen and experienced myself too many instances where you open the engine and start a never ending stream of problems because you didn't pick the right person.

While its relatively easy to find a shop that knows an LS engine inside and out...not so easy for BMW engines. I'm lucky, I have access to a master tech who used to race in addition to an excellent engine builder AND machine shop. IMO, you need to take the resources you have available to you in making the decision for crank grinding or preventive bearing replacement.

But you bring up an interesting point about life expectancy of the engine. I think 100k - 120k on an M engine is normal. In fact, its gotten much better since the days of the S38 and S14 and even the S62. You can see this based on resale values for the E46 M3 which from my observation are heavily penalized for high mileage. You can get a high mileage E46 M3 for about $2k more than a high mileage 330 ZHP. If anyone buys an M car thinking you should get 200k+ miles out of it as the norm...they are mistaken. The only M car that has kind of gotten close to that is the E36 M3 which really didn't have an M engine in it.

Based on the clearances and the two reasons stated above why you would have such tight clearances, then my theory is BMW clearly made the decision based on the fact that M cars are much more mainstream nowadays.

So if we look at the history of M engines, now we deal with rod bearings on the S54/65/85...or we can look at the past engines (minus the S50/S52) which required more intensive engine maintenance to replace all of the gaskets, seals, valve adjustments, and...potentially...bearings. Also consider BMW's service requirements have been greatly reduced over the years. So nowadays M engines are maintained less and last longer. No they won't last forever but its not a doomsday scenario.

If you want a car to drive flawlessly for 100k in most cases, BMW has generally achieved that. 101k miles? Yeah, its going to start to fall apart. If you want something to last forever...buy a Honda.

I guess the much less sexier question is BMW M on par with customer expectations? Is the expectation for the engine to last 200k miles?
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      09-15-2013, 03:17 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
The concensus to doing this as maintenance seems to be 60,000 miles. So you are right, for the price of two bearing swaps, you could get your crank ground and be done with the problem. Replacements every 60,000 miles and you can last up to 180,000 before the next replacement is needed. But for the guys who don't replace the bearings at all, I think you're going to find very few engines making it up to 150,000 miles, and I have a feeling by 120,000 miles, engines will start failing in strong numbers. The cost of that engine failure could be total engine replacement ($20k), but the cost of grinding the cranks and rebuilding will be about $5,500 - $6,000.

Top Gear, I'll be in your area next Friday and Saturday. If you wanted to get together and have a chat, I'll be happy to make some time. I'll even bring a few sets of bearings for you to see and get a hands on feel for the issue.
Let me say something upfront. I appreciate the good info from you, BLMVR, and all the other well-meaning and more experienced folks that are contributing to this topic. However, I am still trying to assess the magnitude of this problem before I take any action. In all honesty and at this point in time I am still not fully convinced I need to take any action let alone what type of action to take. The problem for me is a little complicated because I do want to add a bit more power in the next year.

Allow me to share this with you:

(1) I love the car and my current plan is to keep it for at least 10 more years. The car is an 08 E90 with 28K "weekend" miles on it at the moment (it's not a DD). So on average I put about 5K "fun" miles/year on it which at this rate will put me at 80K miles in 10 years from now. BTW, I don't track the car but do spirited canyon runs almost every weekend with the car in the high RPM range for tens of minutes at a time.

(2) Side note: I have ZERO interest in swapping my awesome E90 for the upcoming M3. The dealer can go to he1l with that new 3-litter 6-cyl motor and their $85K asking price. Sorry, I just had to throw that in there.

(3) Last year when the car came out of warranty I started making plans to add a little more power to the motor. Two options: the 4.6L stroker or one of the better centrifugal SC kits. I was a little shocked by the price of the stroker and looked into the SC option which was about half the price. I called up Roman over at ESS and spoke to him about his kits as well as his view on the rod bearing issue. He recommended that I should replace my rod bearings if my car had over 50K miles on it and if I wanted to go with their 625 kit. He said I shouldn't worry about the bearings if I went with their lower-power kits (550 or 585).

The rod bearing issue has been bothering me since I started reading threads like this. Knowing I am going to keep the car for a long time I want to do the right thing and add power safely. So for the moment I am staying put until I figure out what my next step is.

You are saying that I should be OK with my original bearings until 60K miles as long as I keep the motor stock which isn't far from what Roman told me. At least you two guys are consistent.

As for getting together, I certainly appreciate the offer if you happen to be in the SF valley and we can setup a meeting but I am not sure we can't figure this out via PM. I have already seen the high resolution rod bearing pics posted by EAS and some of the others on this forum but I am not sure how this helps me with my long term plans for this car.
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      09-15-2013, 06:33 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Is the expectation for the engine to last 200k miles?
IMO, technology from 30 years ago: no; technology from today: yes. I think 200k miles on today's technology with an engine that is properly clearanced and properly maintained is what one should expect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Top_Gear View Post
(3) Last year when the car came out of warranty I started making plans to add a little more power to the motor. Two options: the 4.6L stroker or one of the better centrifugal SC kits.
I'm not telling anybody to go out and rebuild their motor. But if you are rebuilding, then you definitely want to have it sized correctly at that time. And while rebuilding, if you're thinking of doing a stroker, then that's a great time to do it. I think the stroker would run about $7500 more than the cost of a straight rebuild. I would also agree with Kawasaki and BMRLVR and run thinner oil, and I would do it whether I was in or out of warranty.

Quote:
As for getting together, I certainly appreciate the offer if you happen to be in the SF valley and we can setup a meeting but I am not sure we can't figure this out via PM. I have already seen the high resolution rod bearing pics posted by EAS and some of the others on this forum but I am not sure how this helps me with my long term plans for this car.
I'll probably be going through the Valley back from OC Friday evening around dinner time. PM if interested.

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Originally Posted by Yellow Snow View Post
But in reality are there any real risks in running with original bearings and clearances? I change oil every year at 5k miles, so it's pretty clean.
Yes I believe there is such risk. We've seen many sets of damaged bearings from people who drive just like yourself and change oil every 5k miles.

Quote:
The BMW M engineers know how to build engines and something like getting the clearances wrong is remote after the S54 problems.
It's not uncommon to have two sets of staff work on alternating generations of HW designs. HW design fixes often times skip a generation because the HW design for the next generation is already set in stone when the discovery is already found. I don't think it's too far fetched to rewind the clock and see how the S65 was already designed and being tested when the S54 issue was finally acknowledged. I'm not saying this is what happened because I don't really know; but I am saying I could understand if this was the case because I see this same thing in my own industry.

Quote:
If by chance it should happen and a bearing spins with damage to the journal. The crank can then be ground for the thicker, -.25mm bearings. Why pay now when you can pay later? (if it happens)
I don't think it's safe to assume all spun bearings will be fixed by a regrind crank and oversized bearings. Here's a photo of a S65 connecting rod on bone stock car. It's my understanding the driver changed his oil often. Then one day he went around a turn at Laguna Seca, spun out and stalled the car. When he restarted the car, it went into limp mode. They towed it straight to the dealer, and this is what they found.

Notice the blue color on the big end of the connecting rod. Blue == excessive heat == lack of lubrication. No reground crank for this motor, it was a total loss.

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      09-15-2013, 07:07 PM   #88
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What do you think of mixing BMW 5W30 with BMW 10W60? or Euro Castrol 0W30 with BMW 10W60?


.
The oem 5-30 is really the same as the German 0-30, the specs on it are so close that many are under the assumption that all they do is rebrand it to the bmw label.
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