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View Poll Results: Should we act
No: It is not our civil war. 66 72.53%
Pending: We need further concrete evidence of chemical warfare. 6 6.59%
Yes: A couple cruise missiles are ok. That's about it though. 6 6.59%
Yes: Strike with significant impact. Hopefully it gets the job done : / 4 4.40%
Yes: Drop the hammer. Time to cripple their military and teach Syria a lesson they won't forget. 9 9.89%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-10-2013, 11:23 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Isn't hindering them even less reason than helping the other side?

I'm no historian, but the attack was to destroy the U.S. ability to interfere with their plans in Asia.. whether this constitutes 'war' - who cares at this point?

The original point being.. damnit you got me .. I knew there was a reason I never argued with you!
I would say so. I think it is within a countries full right to refuse to trade with a country whose actions we disapprove of. I wouldn't say it's an act of war like aiding the opposition could be considered.

The Japanese knew the only chance of victory against the US was one huge strike that would knock us out of the war for the short term which would bring us back to the negotiating table. They knew once we rebuilt, they were screwed.

Yamamoto's plan was a good one. He understood our capabilities very well. But, the execution of the attack was flawed. It wasn't his fault, but the person who was in charge of the attack. Yamamoto wanted to make sure the attack would wipe out our carriers too. But, the admiral in charge of executing the attack was still an old school person who put value in destroying our battleships. So he didn't care they carriers were not there that day. Which is ironic. He underestimated the power of the carrier while this devastating attack was being accomplished by the carrier's aircraft.

The Japanese also failed to destroy the dry docks and repair facilities which enabled us to repair our fleet in a relative quick manner. They also failed to destroy the fuel depots which would hamper our ability to refuel the Pacific Fleet. If I am remembering correctly, the reason why they didn't bomb our dry docks was because they felt like it was a low blow and kicking us while we were down. The fuel depot though was another execution mistake by the admiral in charge.

Who knows what would have happened if our carriers were at Pearl that day( which happens to fuel the conspiracy theories) and if the Japanese destroyed the dry docks and fuel depot. The plan could have worked.

Last edited by quagmire; 09-10-2013 at 11:31 AM.
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      09-10-2013, 11:30 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
I would say so. I think it is within a countries full right to refuse to trade with a country whose actions we disapprove of. I wouldn't say it's an act of war like aiding the opposition could be considered.

The Japanese knew the only chance of victory against the US was one huge strike that would knock us out of the war for the short term which would bring us back to the negotiating table. They knew once we rebuilt, they were screwed.

Yamamoto's plan was a good one. He understood our capabilities very well. But, the execution of the attack was flawed. It wasn't his fault, but the person who was in charge of the attack. Yamamoto wanted to make sure the attack would wipe out our carriers too. But, the admiral in charge of executing the attack was still an old school person who put value in destroying our battleships.

The Japanese also failed to destroy the dry docks and repair facilities which enabled us to repair our fleet in a relative quick manner. They also failed to destroy the fuel depots which would hamper our ability to refuel the Pacific Fleet. If I am remembering correctly, the reason why they didn't bomb our dry docks was because they felt like it was a low blow and kicking us while we were down. The fuel depot though was another execution mistake by the admiral in charge.
Again, not a historian,. but I don't think anybody of sane mind would buy that Japan didn't do as much damage as they could due to altruism.
I really don't get what you are trying to say, except constant equivocation at every point.. really can you just take a stand on a point instead of turning around at every corner like a rat in a maze?
I apologize for my rudeness, but your argument style really gets on my nerves..
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      09-10-2013, 11:36 AM   #113
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      09-10-2013, 11:40 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Again, not a historian,. but I don't think anybody of sane mind would buy that Japan didn't do as much damage as they could due to altruism.
I really don't get what you are trying to say, except constant equivocation at every point.. really can you just take a stand on a point instead of turning around at every corner like a rat in a maze?
I apologize for my rudeness, but your argument style really gets on my nerves..
I'm not really arguing. That was me going off on a tangent based on the information I know of the Pearl Harbor attack. Whether that information is accurate who knows, but that is what I have learned from documentaries about the attack. I believe the information about the dry docks/fuel depot came from a NatGeo documentary. I never meant it to be perceived as an argument with you, just a discussion.

My main point was Japan didn't attack us because we aided the other side.

I wasn't even arguing with M-Six either. I am not really disagreeing with him. I agree with a lot of what he says. Just discussing things like asking if there ever been a country going to war with a country that has intervened? That's all. Not trying argue or say he is wrong. Just having I hope a conversation.

Last edited by quagmire; 09-10-2013 at 11:49 AM.
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      09-10-2013, 11:52 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
I'm not really arguing. That was me going off on a tangent based on the information I know of the Pearl Harbor attack. Whether that information is accurate who knows, but that is what I have learned from documentaries about the attack. I never meant it to be perceived as an argument with you, just a discussion.

My main point was Japan didn't attack us because we aided the other side.

I wasn't even arguing with M-Six either. I am not really disagreeing with him. I agree with a lot of what he says. Just discussing things like asking if there ever been a country going to war with a country that has intervened? That's all. Not trying argue or say he is wrong. Just having I hope a conversation.
Okay, nevermind. It's none of my business.
I apologize for being rude. Have a good day.
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      09-10-2013, 11:55 AM   #116
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lol never enter a land war in Asia, and never argue with QUAGMIRE or you'll be stuck forever ha ha
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      09-10-2013, 12:56 PM   #117
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Quote:
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Well France entered the Revolutionary War as a participant on our side, it wasn't really aid, per se. And WWI wasn't a civil war, it was a war between countries. A closer analogy would have been for a foreign country to aid the Confederate Army during our Civil War. The Confederates sought, but never really got, recognition as a sovereign nation, and they got some minor support in the form of supplies from France and/or England, but that's as far as any real aid attempt went.

Still, your point has validity. I can't think of any instance where a country involved in a civil war has declared war on an intervening country.
I think the difference between a Civil War and a Revolution needs to be recognized and correctly applied. Then again, maybe there isn't much of a difference.....

I believe a Civil war is defined by citizens of the same nation fighting against policy, for rights, or to be independent of that nation. Where as a revolution is a forceable overthrow or take over of an existing nation, this isn't always perpetrated by it's own citizens.

So i can see staying out of a civl war more so than a revolution seeing that the revolution can result in drastic change in policy and diplomacy. Depending on the size and resources of a nation, that could be very unhealthy for an entire region.
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Last edited by Mr Tonka; 09-10-2013 at 02:31 PM.
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      09-10-2013, 01:17 PM   #118
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Agreed, somewhat. It's a murky line for sure, especially when applied to Syria. There may be outside agitators (AQ, for one), but this is mainly Syrians vs Syrians, not indigenous people fighting against a colonial power. So I would be more inclined to call this a civil war. But as you say, if it results in the overthrow of Assad, does it then become a revolution?

Either way, the winner in Syria will not be a friend of the US whether we get involved or not, so why bother?
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      09-10-2013, 01:48 PM   #119
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      09-10-2013, 04:29 PM   #120
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Every time Putin opens his pie hole he says something that irritates the US.

Now he says we need to drop the threat of military action, since we are venturing down the diplomatic road of getting Syria to turn over their CW.

We will hear Obama tell us tonight that Putin AINT GETTIN HIS WAY, 'cause Russia doesn't GET to call all the shots.

The US will decide if and when it wants to engage in mliliaty action Mr. Putin, you irritating little thorn in our side.

Last edited by BlueZ4Arizona; 09-10-2013 at 04:38 PM.
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      09-10-2013, 04:55 PM   #121
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Pretty much sums up what our scumbag politicians are doing.

If Israel is threatened or attacked because of their actions against Palestinians the US jumps up and comes to its defense.

Putin comes to the defense of his ally and he's looking for trouble? He just kept OUR corrupt politicians from starting another war and he's still the bad guy?

This country has lost it's mind.
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      09-10-2013, 05:15 PM   #122
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Pretty much sums up what our scumbag politicians are doing.

If Israel is threatened or attacked because of their actions against Palestinians the US jumps up and comes to its defense.

Putin comes to the defense of his ally and he's looking for trouble? He just kept OUR corrupt politicians from starting another war and he's still the bad guy?

This country has lost it's mind.
Putin is not really the bad guy, just an irritant. He just doesn't GET the fact that he doesn't GET to tell the US what to do, plain and simple.
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      09-10-2013, 05:19 PM   #123
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Putin is not really the bad guy, just an irritant. He meant well, but he just doesn't GET the fact that he doesn't GET to tell the US what to do, plain and simple.
But the US has the right to tell any country on the earth what to do? How does that work?
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      09-10-2013, 05:45 PM   #124
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But the US has the right to tell any country on the earth what to do? How does that work?
Murica!!

I still find it weird that you want to live in texas and aren't shouting that we should nuke them. haha
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      09-10-2013, 05:49 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Bx Tpr View Post
But the US has the right to tell any country on the earth what to do? How does that work?
Murica!!

I still find it weird that you want to live in texas and aren't shouting that we should nuke them. haha
I was waiting for someone to pick up on that LMFAO!

I'd much rather watch them destroy each other while I smoke a cigar and clean my guns. As long as they leave us alone we can leave them alone.
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      09-10-2013, 07:56 PM   #126
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But the US has the right to tell any country on the earth what to do? How does that work?
Not necessarily, but as the most powerful country in the world, we certainly don't take orders from anyone and Obama is going to spell that out in so many words in about 10 minutes.
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      09-10-2013, 11:08 PM   #127
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Either way, the winner in Syria will not be a friend of the US whether we get involved or not, so why bother?
At the risk of oversimplifying, the whole of post-WW2 can be thought of as U.S. vs. Russia, and since the Berlin Wall went down, the U.S. against China.
Why? Because the U.S. is the #1 force, it can and must assert order, protect itself, and when it can at minimal harm to itself, protect others.
The U.S. destroyed the Nazi-Axis, but as with all things, once the old enemy is gone your former friend the #2 guy Russia is now the 'enemy'. But with the mixed results of democratization mighty Russia is a fraction of it's former glory, and economic liberalisation in Asia and the opening of China in the last 24 years has created a new contestor.
People in the U.S. like to think of it as democracies vs. non-democracies - but is not Russia a democracy, was Putin not overwhelmingly elected? So why does he hate the U.S. still?
China is communist, that's an easy distinction, Japan is democratic, and a friend, and so is India the other giant.
Japan and India, along with the Phillipines, Australia are the U.S.'s allies in Asia - why? only because China exists, and the U.S. must contain China. Why? Because they are not democratic? Ok. But then why is super-popular Putin also an enemy? Are they only a pretend democracy and are still communist?
Why is it in the U.S.'s interest to kick out the Muslim Brotherhood from Egypt?
Were they not democractically elected?
Because they are religious nutwing Islamists who will turn Egypt into an Allah-worshipping rapid anti-U.S. terrorist breeding ground. But they were democractially elected.
My point is, the 'ideological' battle, via the main contestents on a state level between the U.S. and China in the Asiapacific and Russia in middle Asia, is not solely of spreading democracies, which is undoubtedly one of the hallmarks, but a comprehensive way of living, which is why a peaceful but not democractic China is aphrehensively accepted, but a fully democractic Muslim Brotherhood is not. That is not to put Muslims in the target, but the backwards-facing Islam that requires women to become objects and have men constantly declaring war on America as Satan.
When we are all similar and not wanting to bite each other's heads off, then there will be no more war, just police.
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      09-11-2013, 12:07 AM   #128
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Because they are religious nutwing Islamists who will turn Egypt into an Allah-worshipping rapid anti-U.S. terrorist breeding ground. But they were democractially elected.
So according to the above you believe that Allah is a separate God and not the same as the other monotheistic religions?

US foreign policy is flawed. It has been flawed before I was a gleam in my fathers eyes. It is the reason why we are hated, why we are constantly under attack and why we have been attacked by middle eastern terrorists. The alphabet soup agencies have interrogating numerous possible terrorists and they all say the reason for the attacks is because we are over there and as long as Merica is on the Arabian peninsula we will be under perpetual attack. Instead of fixing a flawed and distasterous foreign policy, especially in the Middle East, we keep it up. Here is a cool video outlining how we've been fawkin with Iran since the 50's and a perfect example of how ridiculous we look trying to mold the world to our liking.

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      09-11-2013, 01:21 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
People in the U.S. like to think of it as democracies vs. non-democracies - but is not Russia a democracy, was Putin not overwhelmingly elected? So why does he hate the U.S. still?

China is communist, that's an easy distinction, Japan is democratic, and a friend, and so is India the other giant.
Japan and India, along with the Phillipines, Australia are the U.S.'s allies in Asia - why? only because China exists, and the U.S. must contain China.

Why? Because they are not democratic? Ok. But then why is super-popular Putin also an enemy? Are they only a pretend democracy and are still communist?
Why is it in the U.S.'s interest to kick out the Muslim Brotherhood from Egypt?
Were they not democractically elected?
Because they are religious nutwing Islamists who will turn Egypt into an Allah-worshipping rapid anti-U.S. terrorist breeding ground. But they were democractially elected.
There is much speculation in Russia and the International community that Putin widely rigged the 2012 election, which put him in power. His first steps have been to dismantle much of the democratic setup of Russia in recent years - such as the 89 governors are not elected, but instead appointed by Putin.

Japan, India, Phillipines, etc. are indeed US allies, and have been for many years. It's not solely because we need someone to "contain China."

And it's apparently not in the interest of the US to kick the Muslim Brotherhood out of Egypt - in fact, Obama's brother Malik Obama is the Executive Director of the Islamic Dawa Organization, which is a Sudan-based fundraising organization for the MB. Lois Lerner (ex-head of the IRS) signed a retroactive tax exempt status for Malik's organization. Malik was also the best man at Obama's wedding. The new Egyptian government is now talking about investigations of the Obama Admin sending bribes to the MB leadership there, via Malik.
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      09-11-2013, 01:29 PM   #130
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Not necessarily, but as the most powerful country in the world, we certainly don't take orders from anyone and Obama is going to spell that out in so many words in about 10 minutes.
Yeah - kind of like Obama's bowing and scraping on his Never-Ending World Apology Tour? This was on Twitter:

By getting his head stuck in the bowling ball return, Obama brilliantly tricked Putin into pantsing him. #HeMeantToDoThat

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      09-11-2013, 03:10 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueZ4Arizona View Post
Not necessarily, but as the most powerful country in the world, we certainly don't take orders from anyone and Obama is going to spell that out in so many words in about 10 minutes.
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      09-11-2013, 04:59 PM   #132
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War Powers Act was passed to circumvent the constitution. Roosevelt wasn't minding his business, picking sides and got Pearl Harbor. So they pass laws to give the executive branch powers it was never intended to have. The founders of this country told everyone that picking sides was dangerous and that we should embrace new democracies and promote free trade with EVERYONE. EVERYONE.

We lost tens of thousands of Americans in Vietnam and today we buy products made there. Really? War is a racket and if it isn't in defense of your country then it's immoral.
1917 - Departmental Reorganization Act - Gave the President the power to reorganize government agencies dring wartime, and for up to 6 months after a peace treaty.

1941 - War Powers Act of 1941 - A broader extension of the DRA - gave more authority for the President to change/manage government departments.

1942 - Second War Powers Act - even more authority to the President. Gave him access to census data, which was used to round up US Citizens of Japanese ancestry.

1973 - War Powers Resolution of 1973 - Congress was concerned that they were ceding authority to the President, and wanted to put limits on it. By this Resolution, the President has to notify Congress with 48 hours of such action, and is limited to 60 days of action, and up to 30 more days for withdrawal.

Obama bombed Lybia for 60 days, and then **told** Congress that he didn't need their approval, because he had transferred the initiative to NATO. That didn't sit well with a lot of the members of Congress.
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