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View Poll Results: Should we act
No: It is not our civil war. 66 72.53%
Pending: We need further concrete evidence of chemical warfare. 6 6.59%
Yes: A couple cruise missiles are ok. That's about it though. 6 6.59%
Yes: Strike with significant impact. Hopefully it gets the job done : / 4 4.40%
Yes: Drop the hammer. Time to cripple their military and teach Syria a lesson they won't forget. 9 9.89%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-08-2013, 09:16 PM   #67
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The problem is the video doesn't prove that one side or the other did it. I don't think there's doubt that a gas attack happened. The question is, who did it. In this particular war, neither side is above committing such an act. So who are we supposed to punish?

Maybe we should bomb both sides and tell them to behave themselves in the future or we'll be back.
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      09-08-2013, 10:24 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/07/politi...attack-videos/

I think we can all admit that chemical weapons are simply a complete different level of killing than normal close quarters combat.

Does this type of attack on a city that is "sympathetic" to the rebels deserve retaliation by outside forces? Do we have a duty as human beings to stand up to actions like this? It is easy to say, "stay out because the place is a shithole" but at the end of the day, these are men, woman and children. Many of which don't deserve what they got. Ask yourselves, is it our moral duty to do something about this?

Before you answer, at least watch the video.
Morality? This country doesn't know the meaning of the word anymore. Our military flies drones over foreign soil from behind a computer screen, drop bombs from those drones and kill scores of innocent folks. Our politicians manipulate foreign governments with money and military equipment so they support our flawed foreign policy abroad and now we have to find morality within ourselves to do something about this chemical attack? WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO DID IT!

All you hear nowadays is how messed up the US government is and how it can't be trusted but here we are yet again being asked by that same government to support a start to another war. I am 150% convinced that politicians are absolute psychopaths.
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      09-08-2013, 11:23 PM   #69
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We should only go if attacked..
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      09-09-2013, 12:20 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Bottom line is Assad bombed his own people, and used the military against them. Killing 100,000 civilians (per the UN estimate)
A direct lie. The well-known number 100,000 in those "UN estimates" is the total casualties of the conflict: government forces killed + terrorists killed + civilians killed.

No single credible instance of Assad using army against non-combatants exists.
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      09-09-2013, 12:21 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
This is not a case of ruthless dictator vs innocent civilians
This is a case of ruthless dictator vs radical Islamists
Assad is "a rutless dictator"??? Really? Any evidence of that, perhaps?
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      09-09-2013, 01:31 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
Assad is "a rutless dictator"??? Really? Any evidence of that, perhaps?
then how would you describe assad? a cool, friendly guy that's taking really good care of his country's population?
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      09-09-2013, 06:55 AM   #73
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then how would you describe assad? a cool, friendly guy that's taking really good care of his country's population?
everybody's a shithead - it's just a matter of how shitty they are relative to each other
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      09-09-2013, 09:00 AM   #74
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Here is a great article that actual provides a legit plan of how we can get out of this mess. Figured I'd share as anyone in this thread at least cares enough to keep the issues importance in daily conversation.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...o-win-big-one/

"As bad as it would be to do nothing, doing something that fails would be even worse."

Can you even imagine if the address Obama gives the country on Tuesday is that he was wrong in his initial approach to Syria. In order to set things straight, to ultimately help grind to a halt the crap going on in the middle east as well as strengthen our own country, he is declaring an aggressive initiative to immediately remove red tape from American energy production on all fronts (Keystone would be a bold start). A bold move like that could be just what not only this country needs but what the world as a whole does a well. Take american dollars out of the middle east area prone to terrorist backing will reap benefits the whole world could enjoy.

We need to look at the bigger picture and stop trying to address the issue war after war after war. This is a battle we can win without even using our military any more than we already are.

Last edited by lsmkr01; 09-09-2013 at 09:26 AM.
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      09-09-2013, 10:39 AM   #75
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Has anyone considered the impact that the natural gas in the eastern Mediterranean might be having on this whole situation?

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=12611
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      09-09-2013, 11:35 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsmkr01 View Post
Here is a great article that actual provides a legit plan of how we can get out of this mess. Figured I'd share as anyone in this thread at least cares enough to keep the issues importance in daily conversation.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...o-win-big-one/

"As bad as it would be to do nothing, doing something that fails would be even worse."

Can you even imagine if the address Obama gives the country on Tuesday is that he was wrong in his initial approach to Syria. In order to set things straight, to ultimately help grind to a halt the crap going on in the middle east as well as strengthen our own country, he is declaring an aggressive initiative to immediately remove red tape from American energy production on all fronts (Keystone would be a bold start). A bold move like that could be just what not only this country needs but what the world as a whole does a well. Take american dollars out of the middle east area prone to terrorist backing will reap benefits the whole world could enjoy.

We need to look at the bigger picture and stop trying to address the issue war after war after war. This is a battle we can win without even using our military any more than we already are.
This is a red herring. Oil production under Obama has increased consistently, up over 40% since he took office. Some of that increase is due to policies already in place when he took over and some is due to the cost of oil making some extraction techniques more viable. But even if the US could supply all its own oil, the cost of oil is based on the world market price. As long as the Middle East continues to be the major supplier to the world, the cost of a barrel of oil will be dependent on the region's stability. Pumping oil from Canada to the Gulf Coast will benefit the Koch brothers and their investors. It won't do diddly to help the average America.
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      09-09-2013, 11:41 AM   #77
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Thank god the Germans went public with their information suggesting that Assad did not give the order to gas the suburb in Damascus.

I suspect they, the Germans, feel a little guilty for not doing the so with Curveball and the Iraq war.
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      09-09-2013, 12:02 PM   #78
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Looks like Obama may save face with the Russians plan.....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/09/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1
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      09-09-2013, 12:05 PM   #79
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Candidly, I'm undecided on my opinion on Syrian involvement...
Should we (the world) punish those who use methods universally deemed as vile and utterly unacceptable in times of war? Yes.
Is it fair to tell the American people that any surgical strike could be limited to only that with no risk of future involvement? Of course not.

To continue the conversation started in previous posts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsmkr01 View Post
Here is a great article that actual provides a legit plan of how we can get out of this mess. Figured I'd share as anyone in this thread at least cares enough to keep the issues importance in daily conversation.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...o-win-big-one/

"As bad as it would be to do nothing, doing something that fails would be even worse."
Read the artlicle. This does not provide any legitimate plan for the--amongst others--reasons sited by M_Six and K.T. herself. The article seems to just use the situation as an excuse to tow a political line.

However, the one clear message I did get is that fox should hire a better editor. Just for laughs...
Quote:
The American people are overwhelming against another Middle East war, and the more your administration tries to sell it, the more public support falls off.
Isn't this the same K.T. McFarland who expressed a concern over hesitation to remain involved in the middle-east (even immediately post-Iraqi withdrawal)?
Quote:
"Yet, the one lesson we should not take away from the Iraq War is that we can retreat into an era of isolation. Tempting as it may be, we cannot ignore new threats on the horizon in hopes they will go away. We no longer live in a world that will allow us to come home, pull up the drawbridge and retreat behind the moat. In today's world those threats will seek us out, not just knocking, but kicking down our door."
Citation: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/...#ixzz2ePmhaAQL

...I wonder how one applies these inspirationally-minded words to the Syrian situation today...
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Last edited by FormerRotor; 09-09-2013 at 12:12 PM.
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      09-09-2013, 12:34 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerRotor View Post
Candidly, I'm undecided on my opinion on Syrian involvement...
Should we (the world) punish those who use methods universally deemed as vile and utterly unacceptable in times of war? Yes.
Is it fair to tell the American people that any surgical strike could be limited to only that with no risk of future involvement? Of course not.

To continue the conversation started in previous posts...

Read the artlicle. This does not provide any legitimate plan for the--amongst others--reasons sited by M_Six and K.T. herself. The article seems to just use the situation as an excuse to tow a political line.

However, the one clear message I did get is that fox should hire a better editor. Just for laughs...


Isn't this the same K.T. McFarland who expressed a concern over hesitation to remain involved in the middle-east (even immediately post-Iraqi withdrawal)?

Citation: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/...#ixzz2ePmhaAQL

...I wonder how one applies these inspirationally-minded words to the Syrian situation today...
In basic liberal fashion you say a lot without saying anything of substance.

Poster boy for being mile wide and an inch deep.
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      09-09-2013, 12:39 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Thank god the Germans went public with their information suggesting that Assad did not give the order to gas the suburb in Damascus.

I suspect they, the Germans, feel a little guilty for not doing the so with Curveball and the Iraq war.
That doesn't really clear Assad. If it was his brother or the military acting on their own, the regime is still responsible.

Obama is in a no-win situation here. Some of it is of his and Kerry's own making and some of it is unavoidable. If Romney were in office now he'd have the same choice to make as to whether or not to punish Syria. And the stakes would be the same.

I have to give a nod to Hillary who bailed out with the last parachute at the perfect moment. Talk about golden timing.
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      09-09-2013, 12:44 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
Assad is "a rutless dictator"??? Really? Any evidence of that, perhaps?
have you been living on planet earth for long?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-al-Assad.html
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      09-09-2013, 12:46 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
A direct lie. The well-known number 100,000 in those "UN estimates" is the total casualties of the conflict: government forces killed + terrorists killed + civilians killed.

No single credible instance of Assad using army against non-combatants exists.
well you are contradicting yourself
you agree that 100,000 died yet you claim its a lie
are you also denying that he used tanks and jet fighters against his own people?
I guess all those youtube videos I have seen and personal accounts from Syrians who escaped from Syria are all wrong then.

may I enquire what is your source of info for all this?
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      09-09-2013, 12:54 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
Looks like Obama may save face with the Russians plan.....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/09/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1
You gotta admire the Russians. Kerry opens his mouth and the Russians help him stick his foot in it. I hope he at least had his wife's ketchup on it.
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      09-09-2013, 01:07 PM   #85
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That doesn't really clear Assad. If it was his brother or the military acting on their own, the regime is still responsible.

Obama is in a no-win situation here. Some of it is of his and Kerry's own making and some of it is unavoidable. If Romney were in office now he'd have the same choice to make as to whether or not to punish Syria. And the stakes would be the same.

I have to give a nod to Hillary who bailed out with the last parachute at the perfect moment. Talk about golden timing.
Ever more reason to adhere to the rule of law which means no military action.
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      09-09-2013, 01:57 PM   #86
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Ever more reason to adhere to the rule of law which means no military action.
Exactly. I don't see how Obama can do this without international support. Attacking a sovereign power without international support is an act of war. Period. It doesn't matter whether Congress authorizes it or not.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so what do I know.
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      09-09-2013, 03:46 PM   #87
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http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill...ional-approval

Looks like Obama will proceed to bomb Syria without Congress' approval. Does that mean he'll be impeached by the end of this month?
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      09-09-2013, 04:07 PM   #88
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http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill...ional-approval

Looks like Obama will proceed to bomb Syria without Congress' approval. Does that mean he'll be impeached by the end of this month?
Incredible.

Quote:
White House counsel Kathryn Ruemmler told the New York Times that a strike would be lawful under both domestic and international law. She told the paper that the president could strike because of the “important national interests” surrounding the use of chemical weapons, even without Congress or United Nations approval.

Ruemmler contended that while the Syria situation “may not fit under a traditionally recognized legal basis under international law,” it would nevertheless be “justified and legitimate.”
"So even though it appears illegal, it really isn't. Just trust us."

And you thought Bill Clinton could play games with words.
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