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      08-28-2013, 04:27 PM   #1
FredVMI
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Engine Malfunction. Reduced Power. Grrrrrr

Hello Everyone-

I encountered the dreaded Reduced Power nanny this weekend (while away from home on vacation, of course). It took me six hours to travel from NY to PA. Nothing better than crawling up the hills of I-88 & I-81 at 45 MPH!

I received the following Check Control messages when the issue occurred:

1. Engine Malfunction. Reduced Power.
2. Increased Emissions.
3. DSC fault
4. DBC fault
5. Start Assist fault

I assume the primary fault is the first one and the other four are resulting faults from the first. Anyway, the next day, all of the Check Control messages were gone and the car was running normally. No issues. I took the car to the stealership to have them check the codes and to look for any obvious issues. I was informed that everything looks OK mechanically and that they are recommending a SW update. If the SW update does not resolve the issue (the issue returns), they are recommending replacement of the DME. The SW update sounds like they're guessing (as does the DME replacement), so I'm not ready to do either. It should be noted that I do not have the most current SW release. Given the history on the M3 Throttle Valve Actuators, I requested the specific codes they found in the history file. Following are the codes identified:

1. CDBF - DME Throttle Actuator Bank 1
2. CD93 - DME BUS Off Throttle Valve
3. 5E19 - DSC Engine Management Interface

Great. In my non expert opinion, it would appear that I need to replace the TVA on Bank 1. Before I do that, I'd like to hear opinions based upon the above. The tech indicated that he did assess the TVA's and they were performing properly. However, the codes that are being thrown may indicate a problem. Also, I did not see the same list of Check Control messages from others with TVA issues. Thoughts? By the way, should I update the SW irrespective of the main issue?
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      08-28-2013, 05:52 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredVMI View Post
Hello Everyone-

I encountered the dreaded Reduced Power nanny this weekend (while away from home on vacation, of course). It took me six hours to travel from NY to PA. Nothing better than crawling up the hills of I-88 & I-81 at 45 MPH!

I received the following Check Control messages when the issue occurred:

1. Engine Malfunction. Reduced Power.
2. Increased Emissions.
3. DSC fault
4. DBC fault
5. Start Assist fault

I assume the primary fault is the first one and the other four are resulting faults from the first. Anyway, the next day, all of the Check Control messages were gone and the car was running normally. No issues. I took the car to the stealership to have them check the codes and to look for any obvious issues. I was informed that everything looks OK mechanically and that they are recommending a SW update. If the SW update does not resolve the issue (the issue returns), they are recommending replacement of the DME. The SW update sounds like they're guessing (as does the DME replacement), so I'm not ready to do either. It should be noted that I do not have the most current SW release. Given the history on the M3 Throttle Valve Actuators, I requested the specific codes they found in the history file. Following are the codes identified:

1. CDBF - DME Throttle Actuator Bank 1
2. CD93 - DME BUS Off Throttle Valve
3. 5E19 - DSC Engine Management Interface

Great. In my non expert opinion, it would appear that I need to replace the TVA on Bank 1. Before I do that, I'd like to hear opinions based upon the above. The tech indicated that he did assess the TVA's and they were performing properly. However, the codes that are being thrown may indicate a problem. Also, I did not see the same list of Check Control messages from others with TVA issues. Thoughts? By the way, should I update the SW irrespective of the main issue?

There is a good DIY on this in the DIY section. It will save you a ton of money, this is not a cheap fix if the car is not under warranty.

Dave
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      08-28-2013, 06:19 PM   #3
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I would make sure your coils are good before moving to bigger more expensive things. Always good to start with the small things when troubleshooting these kind of problems, my .02
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      08-28-2013, 07:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinm3 View Post
I would make sure your coils are good before moving to bigger more expensive things. Always good to start with the small things when troubleshooting these kind of problems, my .02
The code for the Throttle actuator is a dead give away. Usually when there is a bad coil you get misfire codes. This is not the case.

As to the OP, the actuators actually are working its just that they aren't opening properly. I highly doubt a SW update will do the trick, if the car is under warranty drive your loaner and let them figure it out.

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      08-28-2013, 08:37 PM   #5
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Did something unusual happened right before you've got the engine malfunction message? I've got it few times myself while doing autocross after spinning and stalling the engine. But it was enough to just turn it off for few minutes, and then the problem would go away. So maybe you just upset the engine somehow and there is no real problem at all.
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      08-28-2013, 08:51 PM   #6
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Same exact thing happened to me. I was covered under warranty but the bill would have been $700.

They Replaced
1. Idle control device
2. 3 hose clamps

I can give you the part numbers if you want.

Good luck.
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      08-28-2013, 09:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3forMe View Post
Same exact thing happened to me. I was covered under warranty but the bill would have been $700.

They Replaced
1. Idle control device
2. 3 hose clamps

I can give you the part numbers if you want.

Good luck.

OPs issue seems to be with the throttle actuator. Your issue was with the idle control valve.
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      08-28-2013, 09:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metro44m3 View Post
OPs issue seems to be with the throttle actuator. Your issue was with the idle control valve.
Well that was the fix but the error was "throttle actuator malfunction". Anyways I don't know enough about cars to help just telling you what happened with mine as I do not have the actual error codes.
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      08-28-2013, 09:45 PM   #9
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Bank 1 throttle actuator will resolve the issue. Bank 1 is the passengers side if you are not aware of that already.
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      08-31-2013, 10:39 PM   #10
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Update:

First of all, many thanks to everyone who posted comments. The suggestions and opinions were quite helpful. This forum continues to be a valuable tool to M3 owners!

The feedback received largely confirmed my belief that the faults would not be corrected with a SW upgrade and that the failure mode was likely a bad TVA. However, the intermittent nature of the problem rather than a hard failure is problematic. I decided to start with the SW upgrade, even though I did not believe it was the source of the problem, primarily because I wanted to have the most current SW release and to eliminate this potential cause. Further, the dealer stated that they would refund the cost ($225 - bandits) if it didn't fix the problem.

With the upgrade complete, I picked-up the car and drove home (20 minutes). I stopped for 10 minutes to run into a store. When I started the car again, yep...the faults returned (4 of the 5 - no Increased Emissions message). Pathetic. Called the dealer to let them know and returned shortly thereafter (in limp mode, of course). Nothing like getting dusted by a Chevy Spark on an uphill!

Anyway, the dealer is still hanging their hat on a DME replacement. $2,000 for the part alone, plus $500 for programming. Crap. Just throw me into the trunk of a Pinto and rear end it with an Escalade!

I asked the dealer to engage the field engineers at BMW NA. I'm not spending money on the TVA (which I still think is the problem) or the DME without conclusive proof of the problem source. I must have the problem fixed for certain as I will be driving to Phoenix in a few weeks to relo back to the Valley of the Sun...a long trip in Reduced Power mode!

I was able to secure their diagnostic routine that leads them to their conclusions (SW & DME). Not sure what to do next. Hopefully this info will help other members of this forum. Wish me luck!
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File Type: pdf M3 TVA Fault Code Procedure.pdf (125.1 KB, 167 views)
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      08-31-2013, 11:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredVMI View Post
Update:

First of all, many thanks to everyone who posted comments. The suggestions and opinions were quite helpful. This forum continues to be a valuable tool to M3 owners!

The feedback received largely confirmed my belief that the faults would not be corrected with a SW upgrade and that the failure mode was likely a bad TVA. However, the intermittent nature of the problem rather than a hard failure is problematic. I decided to start with the SW upgrade, even though I did not believe it was the source of the problem, primarily because I wanted to have the most current SW release and to eliminate this potential cause. Further, the dealer stated that they would refund the cost ($225 - bandits) if it didn't fix the problem.

With the upgrade complete, I picked-up the car and drove home (20 minutes). I stopped for 10 minutes to run into a store. When I started the car again, yep...the faults returned (4 of the 5 - no Increased Emissions message). Pathetic. Called the dealer to let them know and returned shortly thereafter (in limp mode, of course). Nothing like getting dusted by a Chevy Spark on an uphill!

Anyway, the dealer is still hanging their hat on a DME replacement. $2,000 for the part alone, plus $500 for programming. Crap. Just throw me into the trunk of a Pinto and rear end it with an Escalade!

I asked the dealer to engage the field engineers at BMW NA. I'm not spending money on the TVA (which I still think is the problem) or the DME without conclusive proof of the problem source. I must have the problem fixed for certain as I will be driving to Phoenix in a few weeks to relo back to the Valley of the Sun...a long trip in Reduced Power mode!

I was able to secure their diagnostic routine that leads them to their conclusions (SW & DME). Not sure what to do next. Hopefully this info will help other members of this forum. Wish me luck!
I think you can find tune venders on this forum that MIGHT be able to program your DME if you end up buying one yourself.

Good Luck.
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      09-01-2013, 03:10 AM   #12
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I just had the exact same thing happen to me on Friday. Symptoms 100% identical - including the not throw the emissions code occasionally. Dealer just fixed it, was indeed the throttle valve actuator.

Good luck!
- Scott (also in the valley of the sun)
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      09-01-2013, 07:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredVMI View Post
Update:

First of all, many thanks to everyone who posted comments. The suggestions and opinions were quite helpful. This forum continues to be a valuable tool to M3 owners!

The feedback received largely confirmed my belief that the faults would not be corrected with a SW upgrade and that the failure mode was likely a bad TVA. However, the intermittent nature of the problem rather than a hard failure is problematic. I decided to start with the SW upgrade, even though I did not believe it was the source of the problem, primarily because I wanted to have the most current SW release and to eliminate this potential cause. Further, the dealer stated that they would refund the cost ($225 - bandits) if it didn't fix the problem.

With the upgrade complete, I picked-up the car and drove home (20 minutes). I stopped for 10 minutes to run into a store. When I started the car again, yep...the faults returned (4 of the 5 - no Increased Emissions message). Pathetic. Called the dealer to let them know and returned shortly thereafter (in limp mode, of course). Nothing like getting dusted by a Chevy Spark on an uphill!

Anyway, the dealer is still hanging their hat on a DME replacement. $2,000 for the part alone, plus $500 for programming. Crap. Just throw me into the trunk of a Pinto and rear end it with an Escalade!

I asked the dealer to engage the field engineers at BMW NA. I'm not spending money on the TVA (which I still think is the problem) or the DME without conclusive proof of the problem source. I must have the problem fixed for certain as I will be driving to Phoenix in a few weeks to relo back to the Valley of the Sun...a long trip in Reduced Power mode!

I was able to secure their diagnostic routine that leads them to their conclusions (SW & DME). Not sure what to do next. Hopefully this info will help other members of this forum. Wish me luck!
Just get a TVA it costs 800 ad tell them if it fixes the problem like you think then they have to pay for it...and if it doesnt I'm sure you can easily sell it to someone on here for 750$ because it does seem to be a fairly common problem. Why not just try a different dealership? Yours seems to be cheaper and dumber than most if them.
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      09-12-2013, 02:22 AM   #14
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For those who are experience this problem, how many miles are on your car and what year?

I have 08 E92 M3 with 63k miles. Im experiencing the same issues, especially when the car is warmed (ex a short trip to the store). Then when im trying to start the car, it throws Engine Malfunction, Increase Emission, DSC ... etc. Turn the car off, restart it, after once, twice or sometimes 5-6 times then all those errors disappear and the car operate like normal, as if nothing has happened.

I did get the latest SW updated loaded, did not fix the problem.

My fault codes from the diagnostic reads:

2B2D Throttle Valves, initialization, bank 2
CDC0 Throttle-valve actuator CAN message, bank 2
2B21 Throttle valve actuator pre-drive check bank 1
2B15 Throttle-valve actuator, governor monitoring, bank 1
2B22 Throttle valve actuator pre drive check bank 2

From a quick quote, $2k for parts, $200-$400 for labor. T_T

Let me know if you guys are able to pin point the issues, whether it is confirmed to be throttle valve actuators? and did it fix the problem?
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      09-12-2013, 03:03 AM   #15
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These cases are getting very common now and very intermittent too.

Lots of people going back to the dealers and spending large sums of money before they get to the route problem.

Anyone owning this type of car should have access to or own code reading equipment.

Throttle actuators are going to become a very large problem on the S65 in exactly the same way it has become a huge problem on the S85.

The above fault codes are typical of an S65 suffering from failed internals of the throttle actuators.
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      09-12-2013, 05:43 AM   #16
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I have similar codes - will ask for a full list of them.

My experience is that I get the same faults and need to restart to remove them. I'm getting a new actuator installed soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by endofanera7 View Post
For those who are experience this problem, how many miles are on your car and what year?

I have 08 E92 M3 with 63k miles. Im experiencing the same issues, especially when the car is warmed (ex a short trip to the store). Then when im trying to start the car, it throws Engine Malfunction, Increase Emission, DSC ... etc. Turn the car off, restart it, after once, twice or sometimes 5-6 times then all those errors disappear and the car operate like normal, as if nothing has happened.

I did get the latest SW updated loaded, did not fix the problem.

My fault codes from the diagnostic reads:

2B2D Throttle Valves, initialization, bank 2
CDC0 Throttle-valve actuator CAN message, bank 2
2B21 Throttle valve actuator pre-drive check bank 1
2B15 Throttle-valve actuator, governor monitoring, bank 1
2B22 Throttle valve actuator pre drive check bank 2

From a quick quote, $2k for parts, $200-$400 for labor. T_T

Let me know if you guys are able to pin point the issues, whether it is confirmed to be throttle valve actuators? and did it fix the problem?
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      09-12-2013, 10:13 AM   #17
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it's it normal to have both tva bank 1 and bank 2 go out at the same time?
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      09-18-2013, 02:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endofanera7 View Post
it's it normal to have both tva bank 1 and bank 2 go out at the same time?
Absolutely. Or not far apart from each other.

Sal or others can confirm this part, but I believe the S65 DME commands the idle actuator fully open before opening the throttle actuators. So, for light throttle driving and idling, the throttle actuators are fully shut. I know this for fact on the MSS65 with the S85.

I have opened about 10 of these now which failed and every one was a result of worn teeth on the second reduction pinion gear and second reduction spur gear. The worn area (relatively small) coincides with the point at which the teeth are in contact when the throttle actuator is in its (installed in engine) spring return shut position. There is usually very little wear on other teeth outside of this range. I believe the wear occurs at idle due to the lack of rotary motion and and vibration of the engine nullifying the benefits of the PTFE injection in one of the gears.

Some people have reported they can realign the center (white) gear 180 degrees or so and the actuator continues to work for a while.

Maybe if someone (ahem Sal ) were to produce an improved gear set for the actuators made of a better choice of materials, we would have a long term, non $800 solution.

Anyway, since the failure occurs due to a mileage/run hours based cause, it follows that both would fail in similar time frames. I doubt BMW analyzed the choice of this Siemens actuator for or use in the S65/S85 based on a high MTBF rating.
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      09-23-2013, 12:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
Absolutely. Or not far apart from each other.

Sal or others can confirm this part, but I believe the S65 DME commands the idle actuator fully open before opening the throttle actuators. So, for light throttle driving and idling, the throttle actuators are fully shut. I know this for fact on the MSS65 with the S85.

I have opened about 10 of these now which failed and every one was a result of worn teeth on the second reduction pinion gear and second reduction spur gear. The worn area (relatively small) coincides with the point at which the teeth are in contact when the throttle actuator is in its (installed in engine) spring return shut position. There is usually very little wear on other teeth outside of this range. I believe the wear occurs at idle due to the lack of rotary motion and and vibration of the engine nullifying the benefits of the PTFE injection in one of the gears.

Some people have reported they can realign the center (white) gear 180 degrees or so and the actuator continues to work for a while.

Maybe if someone (ahem Sal ) were to produce an improved gear set for the actuators made of a better choice of materials, we would have a long term, non $800 solution.

Anyway, since the failure occurs due to a mileage/run hours based cause, it follows that both would fail in similar time frames. I doubt BMW analyzed the choice of this Siemens actuator for or use in the S65/S85 based on a high MTBF rating.

My car went into limp mode this week as well...I pulled the codes and I'm getting a: Cdbf - throttle valve actuator CAN bank 1

I haven't seen anyone else post this error...others with bad tva's seem to be getting different codes. Any idea why? Should I be replacing my TVA based on this cdbf code?
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      09-26-2013, 12:29 AM   #20
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Anyone has the part numbers for all required parts for a replacement job on both bank 1 and 2 throttle valve actuators? Much thanks
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      09-26-2013, 07:25 AM   #21
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http://http://realoem.com/bmw/showpa...45&hg=13&fg=15

Only part needed is 13627838085, just two of them.
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      09-26-2013, 08:07 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Anyone has the part numbers for all required parts for a replacement job on both bank 1 and 2 throttle valve actuators? Much thanks
My DIY. Let me know if get stuck
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=735033
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