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      08-26-2013, 07:10 PM   #1
03///m3
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Power steering fluid/ brake flush Q's

OK so i just had my first HPDE in my E92 M3 (not first HPDE but first in my E92). I realized that the PS fluid has splashed all over my engine. My question is how much fluid should be in the reservoir? I noticed that the fluid is about and inch and half below the top. Should i top off the fluid? Secondly how frequently should the fluid be changed when tracking about 10 events a year. I'm thinking once a year?

How frequently is a brake flush recommended? I used to get it done before every track event however i just had it done on 8/22 (Motul 660) and I just had a track day today and i have another on 9/19. I wondering if i'm fine to go to the next track day without a flush. Not sure - My brakes were fading at the track today so i'm not sure if i boiled the fluid. I'm running Motul 660.

Last edited by 03///m3; 08-26-2013 at 07:52 PM.
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      08-26-2013, 09:59 PM   #2
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I would say it depends on the brake pads. You can go longer on new pads, not as long on older pads. Old pads, less material, more heat gets into the fluid. I say 3-5 months...most techs require every 6 months. If your pedal goes soft, bleed before the next event.

P/S...check it after every event. CH-11S tends to evaporate and foam up when hot. I just suck the old stuff out and replace every 6 months.
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      08-27-2013, 06:34 AM   #3
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Are you running stock brakes? If not, hardbrakes.com sells titanium backing shims to keep heat off the pistons.

Motul 660 should not be a problem in one month. You must have really overheated things.
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      08-27-2013, 06:52 AM   #4
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Thanks for the recommendations guys. I am running new stop tech street performance pads ( i just had them installed when i flushed the fluid on the 22nd). I thought i could get these instead of RS19's (which i usually run) to hold me over until next season when i want to upgrade to a front ST40 kit as I only have 2 events left this year that i'm planning on doing. That may have been a mistake as the brakes were fading bad into turn one at Lime Rock.

I think i'm going to get extra CH-11s fluid just in case it goes lower than it is right now (about an inch and half below the top)
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      08-27-2013, 08:13 AM   #5
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I use BMW OEM brake fluid on stock brakes with PF08 pads. 15-18 track days per season. I flush once a year in the spring and never had any brake issues (fading, soft pedal or losing brakes) in 5 years of tracking the car.

I am doing my first power steering fluid flush since owning the car as we speek. IMO, my steering is not feeling as good as it should so I decided to have it flushed.
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      08-27-2013, 06:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
I use BMW OEM brake fluid on stock brakes with PF08 pads. 15-18 track days per season. I flush once a year in the spring and never had any brake issues (fading, soft pedal or losing brakes) in 5 years of tracking the car.

I am doing my first power steering fluid flush since owning the car as we speek. IMO, my steering is not feeling as good as it should so I decided to have it flushed.
I'm using BMW OE fluid in my e46...it's holding up pretty good so far.
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      08-27-2013, 08:25 PM   #7
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I haven't done PS fluid, but I'll probably do it. Was going to at 30K, which I thought was reasonable given that BMW claims it never needs to be replaced, but I may do it sooner now.

As for brake fluid, I run Castrol SRF precisely because its wet boiling point is high enough that I've found it doesn't need to be bled between flushes, which I do annually (Castrol says don't keep it longer than 18 months). The general wisdom with ATE Super Blue and Motul seems to be flush every quarter or after every 2-3 track days, whichever comes first. Yes SRF is a lot more expensive than those fluids, but if you don't bleed your own fluid, avoiding professional labor on bleeds will end up saving you money overall.
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      08-27-2013, 08:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I use BMW OEM brake fluid on stock brakes with PF08 pads. 15-18 track days per season. I flush once a year in the spring and never had any brake issues (fading, soft pedal or losing brakes) in 5 years of tracking the car.
Interesting, I upgraded my fluid before I upgraded my pads since I got a spongy pedal even in lower run groups. But how do you like the PF08s? I just bought a set for the front to go with my ST60 BBK on that axle (running StopTech Street Performance in the rears) and will be trying them out in late September. I have to say though, they'll have to be amazing if I'm going to keep running them since just the fronts for the ST60 caliper cost $500-580 online. Then again, I'm not crazy about the idea of switching to Pagids (picky about bedding in) or Hawk (apparently they eat rotors for breakfast and their dust is corrosive), so I'm not sure what I'd use if I don't keep the PFs. Maybe StopTech's new racing compound? SR34s and SR32s don't have great reviews, maybe the SR33 compound that no one I've seen here has tested is the sweet spot?

Also, how long do they last you?
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      08-27-2013, 08:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
I haven't done PS fluid, but I'll probably do it. Was going to at 30K, which I thought was reasonable given that BMW claims it never needs to be replaced, but I may do it sooner now.

As for brake fluid, I run Castrol SRF precisely because its wet boiling point is high enough that I've found it doesn't need to be bled between flushes, which I do annually (Castrol says don't keep it longer than 18 months). The general wisdom with ATE Super Blue and Motul seems to be flush every quarter or after every 2-3 track days, whichever comes first. Yes SRF is a lot more expensive than those fluids, but if you don't bleed your own fluid, avoiding professional labor on bleeds will end up saving you money overall.
you should learn, its super easy.
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      08-27-2013, 08:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
you should learn, its super easy.
Yeah, I watched the Power Bleeder video and it does indeed seem easy, but honestly I just bought a bunch of tools in a fairly short amount of time upon accepting that I was hopelessly addicted to the track, so I'd just as soon avoid buying yet another thing at least for now. First it was the basics (tire pressure gauge, torque wrench, breaker bar, ratchet set for camber plates, racing tape, nice helmet), then I got the BBK and wanted to do my own pad swaps so I bought a nice jack, jack pad adapter, jack stands, wheel chocks, and a rotor micrometer, plus my first set of racing pads. Now I'm contemplating dedicated wheels and tires, for which I'd probably also want to buy an impact wrench and torque limiter stick, plus tire totes and wheel felts.... it never ends. Damn you track for being so addictive and amazing!!
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Last edited by jphughan; 08-27-2013 at 08:38 PM.
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      08-27-2013, 08:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Yeah, I watched the Power Bleeder video and it does indeed seem easy, but honestly I just bought a bunch of tools in a fairly short amount of time upon accepting that I was hopelessly addicted to the track, so I'd just as soon avoid buying yet another thing at least for now. First it was the basics (tire pressure gauge, torque wrench, breaker bar, ratchet set for camber plates, racing tape), then I got the BBK and wanted to do my own pad swaps so I bought a nice jack, jack stands, wheel chocks, and a rotor micrometer, plus my first set of racing pads. Now I'm contemplating dedicated wheels and tires, for which I'd probably also want to buy an impact wrench and torque limiter stick.... it never ends. Damn you track for being so addictive and amazing!!
Yes its is addicting and never thought about having to buy most of those things as I've had them for 20yrs. Once you do all your basic work you have more money for mods!
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      08-27-2013, 08:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Yeah, I watched the Power Bleeder video and it does indeed seem easy, but honestly I just bought a bunch of tools in a fairly short amount of time upon accepting that I was hopelessly addicted to the track, so I'd just as soon avoid buying yet another thing at least for now. First it was the basics (tire pressure gauge, torque wrench, breaker bar, ratchet set for camber plates, racing tape, nice helmet), then I got the BBK and wanted to do my own pad swaps so I bought a nice jack, jack pad adapter, jack stands, wheel chocks, and a rotor micrometer, plus my first set of racing pads. Now I'm contemplating dedicated wheels and tires, for which I'd probably also want to buy an impact wrench and torque limiter stick, plus tire totes and wheel felts.... it never ends. Damn you track for being so addictive and amazing!!
Actually, the powerfill thing that motive sells is actually awesome! I have 2, one for gearbox oil, one for diff oil.

The motive bleeder is OK. It would be better if there were a coupling on the end of the master cylinder cap so you can screw on the cap and THEN put on the hose...instead of kinking up the hose.

I borrowed a well used one once upon a time...let's say I made it rain...busted hose...brake fluid fountain...all over my car. Thank god its just a track car!
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      08-27-2013, 08:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Actually, the powerfill thing that motive sells is actually awesome! I have 2, one for gearbox oil, one for diff oil.

The motive bleeder is OK. It would be better if there were a coupling on the end of the master cylinder cap so you can screw on the cap and THEN put on the hose...instead of kinking up the hose.

I borrowed a well used one once upon a time...let's say I made it rain...busted hose...brake fluid fountain...all over my car. Thank god its just a track car!
The bavarian bleeder I have decouples at the cap for the master cylinder.
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      08-27-2013, 10:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
The bavarian bleeder I have decouples at the cap for the master cylinder.
Link?
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      08-27-2013, 10:59 PM   #15
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Link?
Just look on bavarian autosport.
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      08-28-2013, 07:28 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Interesting, I upgraded my fluid before I upgraded my pads since I got a spongy pedal even in lower run groups. But how do you like the PF08s? I just bought a set for the front to go with my ST60 BBK on that axle (running StopTech Street Performance in the rears) and will be trying them out in late September. I have to say though, they'll have to be amazing if I'm going to keep running them since just the fronts for the ST60 caliper cost $500-580 online. Then again, I'm not crazy about the idea of switching to Pagids (picky about bedding in) or Hawk (apparently they eat rotors for breakfast and their dust is corrosive), so I'm not sure what I'd use if I don't keep the PFs. Maybe StopTech's new racing compound? SR34s and SR32s don't have great reviews, maybe the SR33 compound that no one I've seen here has tested is the sweet spot?

Also, how long do they last you?
The amount of stress on the brake system is highly track dependent. However, I see a lot of folks (Novice/Intermediate and even Advanced) over brake quite a lot on the track, this obviously puts undue strain on the brake system. The more you work with momentum, the less you need to brake (up to a point that is ) Ask the Miata guys, they know all about momentum.

As I mentioned, I use OEM brake fluid on an otherwise stock brake system (except for pads). I flush once a year in the spring and have never had the need to bleed throughout the entire season.

I like the PF08 a lot. Even more this year as they added the anti rattle clips and seem to have revised to coumpound of the pad. They are now very acceptable for street use (no more rattle and very very little squeal). So I don't need to swap pads back and forth for the entire track season, which is a big plus. I used to run Hawk HP+. I never really had a performance issue with them, however I never really liked their initial bite plus they squealed like hell on the street. The PF08 resolved both points and are therefore more confidence inspiring. Further, they last almost twice as long as the HP+ which covers the extra cost. The fronts last me half a season (8-9 days) and the rears are good for the entire season (15-18 days).

For bleeding, I have a hand operated vacuum pump that you simply connect to the caliper nipple. Pump the vacuum, open the nipple, the fluid collects in the bottle so you can see the colour change, pump more vaccuum if needed then close the nipple. Very efficient and quick. I never had to use it on my M3, however it was used very frequently on my modified GTI way back when
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 08-28-2013 at 05:10 PM.
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      08-28-2013, 07:59 AM   #17
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^ Texas World Speedway isn't known for being harsh on brakes at all except in one or two areas, and I very likely was overbraking in lower run groups. I've definitely been carrying a lot more momentum through corners as I moved through Blue and now got moved into Yellow, but I suspect some of the reduced braking there has been offset by carrying more speed into braking zones as well. Who knows, maybe I could go back to OEM fluid at this point; I just switched when I had a problem and haven't switched back I guess.

Interesting that the PF08s are streetable. If they're quiet and actually work when cold that definitely tempts me to just run them full-time, but the fact that they cost over 4x the StopTech Street pads alone would probably keep me from doing that, plus I imagine they eat through rotors faster. I do like that longevity though. I run 6-8 days per year at the moment so if they can get me through a year, that pad cost just might be worth it in my book. Thanks!
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      08-28-2013, 08:25 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03///m3
OK so i just had my first HPDE in my E92 M3 (not first HPDE but first in my E92). I realized that the PS fluid has splashed all over my engine. My question is how much fluid should be in the reservoir? I noticed that the fluid is about and inch and half below the top. Should i top off the fluid? Secondly how frequently should the fluid be changed when tracking about 10 events a year. I'm thinking once a year?

How frequently is a brake flush recommended? I used to get it done before every track event however i just had it done on 8/22 (Motul 660) and I just had a track day today and i have another on 9/19. I wondering if i'm fine to go to the next track day without a flush. Not sure - My brakes were fading at the track today so i'm not sure if i boiled the fluid. I'm running Motul 660.
If pedal feel is ok on the brakes or clutch i think the brake fluid is ok. As far as power steering fluid, most people remove some from the reservoir so that it does not spill over. Since its spilled over at the track it should be ok now?

Ive done about three track days now on my brake fluid and it still seems ok vs one day after the stock brake fluid - i needed to flush right away because my pedal feel was much softer - boiled over. Get some pads at least if you are worried about fade. Check the pads too.
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      08-28-2013, 09:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
If pedal feel is ok on the brakes or clutch i think the brake fluid is ok. As far as power steering fluid, most people remove some from the reservoir so that it does not spill over. Since its spilled over at the track it should be ok now?

Ive done about three track days now on my brake fluid and it still seems ok vs one day after the stock brake fluid - i needed to flush right away because my pedal feel was much softer - boiled over. Get some pads at least if you are worried about fade. Check the pads too.
Thanks. Yeah i'm not thrilled with the pads but then again i didn't have the highest expectations for them as they are a dual purpose pad. I'll either get a set of RS19's or just get a ST40 in the spring. Turn one at Lime Rock is not so much fun when you don't have confidence in your brakes
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      08-28-2013, 11:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03///m3 View Post
Thanks. Yeah i'm not thrilled with the pads but then again i didn't have the highest expectations for them as they are a dual purpose pad. I'll either get a set of RS19's or just get a ST40 in the spring. Turn one at Lime Rock is not so much fun when you don't have confidence in your brakes
or room to go off straight. lol
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      08-28-2013, 12:45 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03///m3 View Post
Thanks. Yeah i'm not thrilled with the pads but then again i didn't have the highest expectations for them as they are a dual purpose pad. I'll either get a set of RS19's or just get a ST40 in the spring. Turn one at Lime Rock is not so much fun when you don't have confidence in your brakes
Have you considered PF08 ?

As I mentioned, they are great track pads that can be used on the street .
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      08-28-2013, 01:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Have you considered PF08 ?

As I mentioned, they are great track pads that can be used on the street .
Yes i have considered the PF08's - I didn't think they were as good as the Pagid's. Perhaps i will give them a try if i don't get a front ST40.
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